Advice please?

[questions]

Hi all,
We have been having some difficulties with some work done at our house. The plumbing was completely replaced from scratch, going with what the plumber recommended. The downstairs ceilings are down for the work to be done.

The installation seemed ok, after a week we turned the boiler off for a while. Then the leaks started, while it was off. Several compression joints were dripping at varying rates.

The plumber has been back out 4 times and has adjusted things and even replaced some pipes and fittings entirely. We still have leaks, often when the system temperature changes, just dripping. He says the system has been pressure tested to 3.5 bar and he doesn't understand why it is leaking when the pressure test was fine, and has never had this problem before.

The consistent problems are worrying me- as once the ceilings go back up this system will not be accessible from above or below without taking the ceilings down again. However, we need to get the ceiling back up as we cannot plaster the rest of downstairs until this is done. This has been going on for some time now and will soon mean that we have to delay other tradesmen who are booked in.

The plumber advised using plastic- but I am beginning to think after reading some things on here, that this is a bad idea as it will be inaccessible. Should I be asking him to entirely replace with copper?

Is it likely that the materials he has used are at fault- he says they are all from the same batch?

What would you all recommend doing from here? Thoughts/ideas?

Thanks in advance...

 

[SimonG]

Any piccies?

 

[Mike Jackson]

Pictures would be helpful. Properly installed, good quality, plastic shouldn't be a problem.

 

[questions]

These pictures are fairly rubbish, sorry, I'm just trying to find some better ones. Please let me know what sort of photos would be useful- I can take some tomorrow.

 

[lame plumber]

probably hasnt used any inserts!

just seen the phots, doesnt look well planned re layout and mixed make fittings doesnt help a few pipe clips wouldnt be amiss

 

[questions]

Thanks Mike, our plumber reckons he is buying good quality parts, he says the ones he uses are expensive. He has sent some of the problem parts to be tested.

 

[questions]

Lame plumber, what do you mean by inserts (spot the non-plumber here!)

 

[SimonG]

That is not the work of a plumber. Looks a bit of a mix and match of fittings and too many fittings for my liking. That's probably where your problem lies. 3.5 bar is not a sufficient enough test.

 

[lame plumber]

speedfit fit needs pressurising up to 10 bar to ensure the grab ring has secured properly over an hour iaw the mfis, so i expect most makes need similar. inserts are fitting pushed into the cut end to support the pipe for the fittings to secure to properly. If I use plastic. I like to keep fittings to aminimum as theres less chance of leaks especially if your making them inaccessible.

 

[questions]

Thank you very much for your advice. So what do you suggest I do next/ask the plumber to do? Re-test to 10 bar? Replace some/all? Stick with the plastic just re-done, or use copper?
I have a couple of clearer photos I can upload if they would be any use, just need to get them off my phone.

 

[questions]

Could someone explain the mixed make problem for me?

 

[Rickster123]

Thank you very much for your advice. So what do you suggest I do next/ask the plumber to do? Re-test to 10 bar? Replace some/all? Stick with the plastic just re-done, or use copper?
I have a couple of clearer photos I can upload if they would be any use, just need to get them off my phone.

the more photos the better. We love a pic on here!

 

[SimonG]

Nothing wrong with plastic if the person installing it knows what they are doing. It looks like your 'plumber' doesn't. With all of them fittings it was probably more expensive to install than copper would have been.

 

[josh]

hmmm, nice..

 

[SimonG]

Could someone explain the mixed make problem for me?

You have what look like Hep2O, Speedfit and compression fittings. To me it looks like somebody was just using up what they had left over. The pipes are supposed to be inserted at 90 degreees and won't tolerate a lot of misalignment. There's one or two fittings that look as though they are just waiting to leak. Plastic moves a lot when it heats up and cools down. As the pipes are moving they seem to be putting undue stress on the fittings and leaking.

 

[lame plumber]

if you get a leak down the line which firm will be responsible Hep (grey fittings) or Speedfit (white pipe)? So mixing makes isnt good. problem with trying to do everything right now you have been using it is are you going to dismantle and check every fitting to check for damage if its been moving down the pipe and sctratching it on the way or is it better to put it in new properly and only you and your plumber can make that choice. I wouldnt be putting my ceiling up yet

 

[questions]

More pics...

 

[questions]

Thank you all for the advice. I will have to discuss this with him tomorrow. To be honest I don't trust what is in at the moment- I can see the ceiling having to come down in the near future if we leave it as it is and put them up, even if the leaks appear to have stopped. This is the latest in a string of issues so I'm wondering whether I should cut my losses and get someone else, or see if this guy will sort it out?!

 

[Guest123]

Some call me old school but I don't care as I don't get leaks and in inaccessible areas like that my installation would always be copper and soldered fittings.

Sorry but from your photos, that looks like a diy job.

 

[questions]

System3- I may take offence to that as I reckon the boyfriend would have done a better job if we'd gone DIY! Ha ha!

 

[ne1ls0n]

after all that hassle i would be going for copper and end feed/solder fittings like system3 says.

 

[questions]

Sounds like this is going to be expensive!

 

[questions]

As for hassle, Nelson, this job has been going on since the end of January! Long story!

 

[Guest123]

Sounds like this is going to be expensive!

Not half as expensive as it would be ripping down your ceiling after decorating!

Get one of the forum guys to pop round and do the job properly for you.

 

[mfgs]

Looks like no planning has gone into the pipe runs at all. They are all over the place and there are a lot more fittings than are needed if planned correctly before starting the work.

As for the plastic, its fine if installed correctly. Personally I will always do a full copper install if I can, but that is just personal choice.

 

[questions]

System, can you recommend anyone who does Leicestershire area?

 

[PlumbBobBob]

one example of poor planning is in pic 3. the big loop off the tee could be done away with if the tee was round the other way

 

[questions]

mfgs, thanks. There is a back story to this, the current guy originally quoted for the work, then sent out a sub-contractor. We were unhappy with his work, so the original guy came back and made some changes. He seemed unhappy with the work too, saying that his insurance did not allow push-fit to compression joints and he would change this. He was also unhappy with the layout, saying that the sub-contractor had used £90 of fittings in a cluster of joints where one would have done. He changed some of the layout around- but presumably he worked with what was already there, presumably this contributed to the current layout.

 

[Guest123]

System, can you recommend anyone who does Leicestershire area?

put up a post in the work section with your location and type of work required. Ask a forum member to PM you.

Best of luck with getting it all fixed. Please report back and let us know how you get on.

 

[Dotty]

put up a post in the work section with your location and type of work required. Ask a forum member to PM you.

Best of luck with getting it all fixed. Please report back and let us know how you get on.

Follow this link - [DLMURL="http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/im-looking-plumber-gas-engineer/"]I'm looking for a Plumber or Gas Engineer[/DLMURL]

 

[plumber0808]

It all looks a bit of a shambles, your as good as your last job.

I would think about getting someone else in, you will get excuse after excuse.
seen many posts like this one and it ends the same way, you will come back on here saying he isn't answering your calls and left you high and dry.

 

[heliotrope]

Some call me old school but I don't care as I don't get leaks and in inaccessible areas like that my installation would always be copper and soldered fittings.

Sorry but from your photos, that looks like a diy job.

I agree, I can't see even an inexpirenced plumber leaving a mess like that!!

 

[plumber0808]

Where about in Leicestershire are you questions?

 

[questions]

Within 15 minutes of Loughborough area

 

[plumber0808]

Bit far for me I'm about 1hr or so away from Loughborough. I used to do a bit of work in Leicester.

 

[questions]

That's a shame, I'll have a look on here tomorrow for someone who is close enough. Thanks!

 

[plumber0808]

No problem, hope you get it sorted and keep us informed.

someone a bit closer should be able to help you out.

 

[leelister6]

Whoever did that aint no plumber!

 

[questions]

Well he was due over at 5pm to meet us, no show and no answer on phone. Just had a call to say he's coming over now so we shall see what happens next!

 

[SimonG]

Well he was due over at 5pm to meet us, no show and no answer on phone. Just had a call to say he's coming over now so we shall see what happens next!

Fingers crossed for you 🙂

 

[questions]

So he's been out. Long discussion but if any of you have any thoughts on the following points I would be grateful!

It appears that the source of the leaks is where compression fittings join the chrome pipe for the rads. The speedfit does not appear to be leaking. (Yes we have 'discussed' the layout!) He thinks the issue is with the chrome pipe but does not appear to have a solution, as he says he has never had this problem before. He suggests getting a rep from the relevant companies- both the compression fitting company and the chrome pipe company- out together to look at the issue. Thoughts?

Re. the mixed brand fittings, he says the grey and the white fittings are both made by the same company (I think someone suggested yesterday that they were not?) Again, thoughts?

He seems positive he can sort this out for us, we are currently discussing what to do next. I don't have much confidence at the moment to be honest!

 

[lame plumber]

if he cant get a chrome pipe to work with a comp fittings he sounds inexperienced, mainly as I was taught to always removed the chrome before using a comp olive on it to stop the fitting leaking or even worse slipping off the pipe!

 

[Whl4852]

if he cant get a chrome pipe to work with a comp fittings he sounds inexperienced, mainly as I was taught to always removed the chrome before using a comp olive on it to stop the fitting leaking or even worse slipping off the pipe!

Exactly! This 'plumber' is surely just a guy having a go! Get him sorted quickly before it costs you any more. I use plastic all the time and hardly have any problems

 

[questions]

He says he has applied chemicals to remove the chrome...

When we initially had a leak on one part, my partner tightened it a little. This did not work, so he undid it. The olive dropped off- it had not crimped up at all. Plumber can't explain this. Any ideas/does this help anyone identify the issue?

Since then all the olives have been changed by the plumber. Initially he used brass, then tried copper.

 

[questions]

whl- thanks. Fortunately, at the moment it is not costing us any more. It was a price for the job. We have not yet paid in full.

 

[Scott_D]

Wrong nut or olive, could be bottoming out before it compresses?
Just a thought

 

[Whl4852]

whl- thanks. Fortunately, at the moment it is not costing us any more. It was a price for the job. We have not yet paid in full.

You need to keep hold of that money!

 

[Whl4852]

Also it's a long time since I did chemistry, but the only thing that will remove chrome electro plating is muriatic acid, a form of hydrochloride acid, I doubt he used this. Unless anybody tells me there is something else, I always just file it off?

 

[questions]

scott_d the brass olives weren't compressing, the copper ones are but there is still water seeping out. The nuts came in a pack with the compression fittings, we saw them come out of the pack and be put on with copper olives.

 

[questions]

Sorry whl, apparently I have that wrong, partner reckons he says he sanded them, not chemicals, he mentioned you could use them, but he sanded. And yes I am holding on to the remaining money tighter than a duck's arse on water!

 

[plumber0808]

"I don't know why the compression fittings leaking I will contact the manufacturer" he is not a plumber but a jobbing builder.
If its a concealed fitting The Crome can be filed off and a normal copper fitting soldered on it.
As much as you probably don't want to i would tell him he isn't getting the money as you are going to use it to employ someone else

 

[questions]

Thanks plumber0808. He doesn't appear to be anything other than a plumber...

Yes the fitting will be concealed- all that is visible are the chrome pipes coming up through the upstairs floor to the rads.

Although we haven't paid in full, we have paid enough to make this a pain in the arse!

But yes, someone else is likely to be on the agenda!

 

[plumber0808]

I wouldn't want any compression fittings under a floor they can be soldered.
You have employed a professional to do the job with that should come quality and knowledge not doubt and clueless.

 

[questions]

Thanks plumber0808. Would you say compression fittings are unreliable then, even if they are fine when fitted, are we likely to have a problem shortly down the line?

I really appreciate all the help you have all given me on here. Although I have to say that quite frankly I never wanted to know this much about plumbing!!:banghead:

 

[Whl4852]

Thanks plumber0808. Would you say compression fittings are unreliable then, even if they are fine when fitted, are we likely to have a problem shortly down the line?

I really appreciate all the help you have all given me on here. Although I have to say that quite frankly I never wanted to know this much about plumbing!!:banghead:

Hes not saying they are unreliable, if fitted correctly. You don't need to use them, just use soldered fitting, will also be cheaper!

 

[stevetheplumber]

when working from below plastic can be put in like wiring ie with as few joint as possible i definately wouldnt use compression under a floor not even on copper pipes

 

[questions]

Thanks whl. Steve, would you also prefer to solder then?

 

[plumber0808]

Compression is fine to use in accessible positions, any problems with them in the future can be dealt with. Under a floor you will never see them again.

 

[questions]

Probably a very dumb question but how do we solder to chrome?

 

[Masood]

Probably a very dumb question but how do we solder to chrome?

You file the chrome off first to the depth of the fitting plus a little more, so the solder can adhere to the copper.

 

[armyash]

You file the chrome off first to the depth of the fitting plus a little more, so the solder can adhere to the copper.

Wish i had known that back in January! haha

That job does not look like a pro did it. Makes my work like i've been doing it for 10 years, hope it gets sorted out. I would tell him I want it sorted once and for all within a week or he will not be receiving payment. If he needs to speak to the manufacturers about fittings tell him that's his problem it's not stopping him from sorting your house out.

 

[ne1ls0n]

allways solder if possable, not had a problem with one yet, only use compression if i can't burn fittings, eg joining onto steel pipe etc. works out cheaper to as people have said.

 

[AWheating]

the plastic pipework is a mess, plain and simple. (like your plumber)

with your joist system plastic pipework is the best solution, but only if fitted and pressure tested correctly. Supported, straight runs, no compression fittings, no strain on the fittings, all lagged etc......

as regards the chrome pipe and fittings, its not your problem even if its faulty material, he should just replace it and if he wants to take it back or speak the the manfacture then thats his problem not yours. I would not leave my customer thinking its there problem the materials ive supplied are faulty.

 

[questions]

Thanks AWheating. When you say 'pressure tested correctly' what in your view would be correct? As I said up thread he has tested, but not to 2 bar for 10 mins followed by 10 bar for 10 mins (as the speedfit literature specifies). He keeps telling us that because the blow out valve on the boiler blows out at 3.5 bar, he can't do this.

Also, I can see exactly what everyone is saying re. the layout, clips etc. I checked what speedfit recommend and their documents seem quite clear. However, we rang speedfit and described the work he's done and they said it was ok! E.g. they said for pipe work that is not on show, clips spaced at 1000mm are fine- their recommendation of 300mm is only for pipes on show on the wall?!

Re. the chrome pipes, he is offering to replace and follow a procedure suggested by the pipe manufacturer to ensure no leaks this time.

Thanks so much to everyone for your advice, it has been so helpful!

 

[PlumbBobBob]

the boiler blow off will most likely be 3bar not 3.5bar. it is usual to isolate the boiler so that the blow off doesn't operate. pipe clips should be every 300mm wherever they are to prevent pipes sagging and causing places for air locks to develop.

 

[SimonG]

You don't pressure test the full system, just the pipework before it's connected to the boiler and rads.

 

[erpkid]

Thanks AWheating. When you say 'pressure tested correctly' what in your view would be correct? As I said up thread he has tested, but not to 2 bar for 10 mins followed by 10 bar for 10 mins (as the speedfit literature specifies). He keeps telling us that because the blow out valve on the boiler blows out at 3.5 bar, he can't do this.Also, I can see exactly what everyone is saying re. the layout, clips etc. I checked what speedfit recommend and their documents seem quite clear. However, we rang speedfit and described the work he's done and they said it was ok! E.g. they said for pipe work that is not on show, clips spaced at 1000mm are fine- their recommendation of 300mm is only for pipes on show on the wall?!

Re. the chrome pipes, he is offering to replace and follow a procedure suggested by the pipe manufacturer to ensure no leaks this time.

Thanks so much to everyone for your advice, it has been so helpful!

Hello, I hope you do get this sorted. Looking at the pics you posted I remember what my mentor told me on day one "if it looks right it is right" This is very hard to achieve with plastic but with planning is possible. It is amazing what these new fittings can tolerate but I think your guy has pushed the boundaries a tad far without I fear understanding them. I won't comment on the chrome pipes work.Let us know how you get on.

 

[erpkid]

Thanks plumber0808. Would you say compression fittings are unreliable then, even if they are fine when fitted, are we likely to have a problem shortly down the line?

I really appreciate all the help you have all given me on here. Although I have to say that quite frankly I never wanted to know this much about plumbing!!:banghead:

I feel for you. I would not be able to sleep if a customer of mine was going through this. :thinking:

 

[Guest123]

The quickest and easiest way to file off chrome from copper is to whiz a Dremel round it with a cutting disc. Done in seconds. If the guy is having problems with compression fittings, then why fit more compression fittings! If you are having a problem, remove that problem and use something else and in this case as it's under a floor, I'd recommend as I said earlier that soldered fittings are used.

 

[Keefy]

For your own peace of mind and in my opinion because I don't like push-fit or compression fittings in inaccessible places I'd recommend taking all that plastic out and replacing it with copper and, as mentioned several times here - soldered fittings. That's if your 'plumber' knows how to use a blow torch (and pipe bender) but from what I see in your pictures I'd be willing to bet he owns neither.

Excuse after excuse isn't going to get this job done quickly, ripping out and doing it again will. Hope you get it sorted soon, it must be driving you mad.

 

[plumber0808]

1 excuse - fine, a excuse for everything - alarm bells

 

[ashtonjay]

crikey that looks like very lazy plumbing
dont get me wrong we plumbers love speedfit (though a lot wont admit it)
but a bit of organisation and a few pipe clips wouldnt go a miss
i couldnt leave that kind of mess for a customer
always plumb like its your own place i say:toilet::toilet:

 

[WHPES]

Haven't read many of the posts but just looked at the photos. What an utter abortion! Wouldn't in my wildest dreams think of passing off such a mess! Not the work of a proper plumber IMO (or at least one with any self respect)

Looks like there could also be too many holes drilled through the timbers too close together than what is allowed.

 

[TimeServed]

So sorry to hear about your mess.....
Plastic if installed correctly is totally fine, I personally use Hep and think its great!
In regards to to the pressure testing, he only needs to test the pipe work! all other components (boiler, rads etc) will be visible! As long as he has the right equipment and knowledge then testing to the manufacters recommendation will not be a problem.
As for asking him to replace the plastic with copper and soldered fittings......I wouldn't want him with a naked flame anywhere near my home!
Good luck.