Boiler choice: Ideal or Vaillant

[digger36]

Moved into a 1920 5 bed detached and are replacing the whole plumbing and heating system.

I had decided on a Vaillant Ecotec Plus 837 combi boiler.

Having discussed this morning at a couple of local plumbers merchants they mentioned an Ideal Vogue 40.

The Ideal is about £230 less than the Vaillant, although money isn't the driver, reliability and performance is.

Id a lot of consultancy work for housing associations who previously used Ideal boilers ad ha no end of problems, although I appreciate hosing associations never specified the best of course due to the cost.

So my question is:

Vaillant Ecotec Plus 837 or Ideal Vogue 40

Thank you in advance

 

[Unregistered]

Apologies for spelling and grammar mistakes. Not used to the wife's laptop keyboard!

 

[Masood]

Vogue all day long.

Ideal used to have a lot of problems with their previous generation of boilers but a very different picture now.

The Vogue is THE premium domestic boiler nowadays IMO.

 

[Ray Stafford]

I had a similar choice, and opted for the Vogue. Haven't regretted it yet, and the 10 years warranty gives serious peace of mind.

Every installer has his favourites, but I have yet to meet someone who has actually installed a Vogue, and not been impressed. As Masood says, it right up there with the best of the premium products.

Thats not to say that the Vaillant isn't a class product, because its also very good.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I had a similar choice, and opted for the Vogue. Haven't regretted it yet, and the 10 years warranty gives serious peace of mind.

Every installer has his favourites, but I have yet to meet someone who has actually installed a Vogue, and not been impressed. As Masood says, it right up there with the best of the premium products.

Thats not to say that the Vaillant isn't a class product, because its also very good.

10 year warranty isnt worth the paper its written on unless its a brand new system and flushed from new

 

[Masood]

10 year warranty isnt worth the paper its written on unless its a brand new system and flushed from new

Total nonsense. Warranty applies on all components, not just water-carrying ones. I had a failed gas valve on an Independent, and was offered an engineer visit next day, or a replacement valve. New one was couriered to me same day, arrived before 9 next morning, no questions asked.

That's top-notch customer service and installer support.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Total nonsense. Warranty applies on all components, not just water-carrying ones. I had a failed gas valve on an Independent, and was offered an engineer visit next day, or a replacement valve. New one was couriered to me same day, arrived before 9 next morning, no questions asked.

That's top-notch customer service and installer support.

thats fine but my post was down the road of heat exchangers etc

 

[Matt06]

Why not fit an Unvented and system boiler rather than a Combi ?

I don't understand why every one wants a combi, fair enough for small properties but this is a 5 bed house 2+ bathrooms ?

 

[Masood]

thats fine but my post was down the road of heat exchangers etc

Yeah, but 10-year warranty is on the whole boiler! 🙂

In any case, even on old systems, if you flush properly, check TDS and turbidity and add enough inhibitor, manufacturers will honour the warranty. You only need to get within 10% of mains. Just need to remember to top up inhibitor at the 5-year service... 🙂

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yeah, but 10-year warranty is on the whole boiler! 🙂

In any case, even on old systems, if you flush properly, check TDS and turbidity and add enough inhibitor, manufacturers will honour the warranty. You only need to get within 10% of mains. Just need to remember to top up inhibitor at the 5-year service... 🙂

yea but with old rads its the same after a year or two ive had a few that have tried to wiggle out of warrenty's

 

[Stanios]

I thought Ideal had 7 year warranty, or is that just Logic?
Vaillant went from 7 up to 10 recently

 

[Ray Stafford]

I thought Ideal had 7 year warranty, or is that just Logic?

Logic is 2 years warranty
Logic PLUS is 7 years
Vogue is 10 years

 

[Stanios]

Logic is 2 years warranty
Logic PLUS is 7 years
Vogue is 10 years

Understood. Vogue is quite a trendy name for a boiler 🙂

 

[kozak1968]

Didn't do Madonna any harm!

Understood. Vogue is quite a trendy name for a boiler 🙂

 

[Masood]

Didn't do Madonna any harm!

Now there's a proper old boiler!

 

[julesverne]

Ive found ideal tip top on warranty call outs. only happened a couple of times but come out. Ive even got them out free of charge once to fix an old faulty isar for a poster on the forum . Baxi pain in the arris tried to blame me so stopped fitting em.

 

[Riley]

Ecotec Pro 7 years
Ecotec Plus 10 years

 

[Whyme]

If it's got a 10 year warranty then go for whatever letter of the alphabet you fancy. There all a much of a muchness now it's only engineers who prefer this that or the other.

 

[antdad]

Why not fit an Unvented and system boiler rather than a Combi ?

I don't understand why every one wants a combi, fair enough for small properties but this is a 5 bed house 2+ bathrooms ?

Cos they're easy to install 😉 Is the Vogue system boiler as highly regarded as their combi's seems to be?

 

[Riley]

Fitted a couple of vogue systems seem equally as nice and easy to work on

 

[1Steven]

Why not fit an Unvented and system boiler rather than a Combi ?

I don't understand why every one wants a combi, fair enough for small properties but this is a 5 bed house 2+ bathrooms ?

I am with you Matt. Belt and braces if boiler goes down you still have hot water running multiple outlets

 

[Riley]

People just love the space made by no cylinder. I agree invented every time if it's do-able

 

[1Steven]

With a 5 bed place i am sure it could be sited somewhere suitable. :smile:

 

[Leo21]

Personally I'd go with the company with the best track record, and that isn't Ideal! There reliability record is poo, to say the least. The new boilers are better definitely, but they're not old enough to be proven in my mind.
Any boiler should be reliable for a couple of years, it's the next ten that matter.

 

[Riley]

With a 5 bed place i am sure it could be sited somewhere suitable. :smile:

No doubt mate but homeowners don't see it like that

 

[ShaunCorbs]

No doubt mate but homeowners don't see it like that

no and they complain when they cant run 2 baths at the same time 🙂

 

[IDCHAPPY]

Mas is bang on Vogue for sure.

 

[IDCHAPPY]

Oops double post.

 

[1Steven]

Ideal response was a real pig

 

[1Steven]

Ideal response was a real pig

 

[Leo21]

Ideal response was a real pig

You can say that again.

 

[Rickster123]

Ideal response was a real pig

Deceptively heavy too. Much like croppie in many ways...

 

[Leo21]

Deceptively heavy too. Much like croppie in many ways...

Nothing deceptive there.

 

[Rickster123]

Nothing deceptive there.

I was talking about the "real pig" part!

 

[drip-dry]

Once i get over the Ideal history and the pain they have caused..not me as I was lucky.....there is not much between the two boilers....look after both ..maybe 5 vaillant to 1 Ideal...but both tick along well..but must say...liking the new vaillants...class..lnside and out

 

[LPC]

Honestly I think you'd have to be absolutely mental to choose an Ideal over a Vaillant.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Honestly I think you'd have to be absolutely mental to choose an Ideal over a Vaillant.

Have you ever fitted a Vogue LPC?

 

[Whyme]

After being an avid vaillant installer for many years and been disappointed i'm an ideal man now. Only vogue tho don't like logics either.

 

[Ray Stafford]

After being an avid vaillant installer for many years and been disappointed i'm an ideal man now. Only vogue tho don't like logics either.

I think the Vogue is under-rated only by those who haven't fitted one. I honestly haven't had a single customer tell me that they regretted fitting a Vogue.

 

[LPC]

Have you ever fitted a Vogue LPC?

I haven't, no. But when you've been in the trenches with Isars/Icos and now i'm seeing loads of knackered Logics (replaced a PCB on a 2.5 year old one the other day) there is just no way I would fit an Ideal.

I can't see how they'd be better than a Vaillant? Yes, they're a bit cheaper but to be honest most of my customers aren't price focused.

And now I can give a 10-year warranty on a Plus, and 7 on the price-cut Pro; it's a no brainer really.

 

[Leo21]

It's not about how they are to fit, or how good they look. It's about reliability, back up and track record.
Vaillant three, ideal none!

 

[Ermintrude]

Vogue mate it's 10x the boiker

 

[Ermintrude]

Valliant are crap back up and parts are expensive.. Ideal E type, Mexico, classic,logic, vogue..... Valliant turbo 242 then down hill. Early Eco with rubber hoses and cracked cony connections below hex. G10 fiasco...

 

[hammers4spanner]

Vogue vs vaillant hmmmm or middleweight vs heavyweight or newbie vs proven product .

Ideal have improved a lot since the last shambles they produced however i have noticed the logic has had faults . Vaillants also have faults but a much bigger company to provide back up tho that said vogue new boiler un tested and ultimately like all manufactured parts will fail.

get a log burner and a big kettle lol

 

[Ermintrude]

Valliant and glow worm

 

[Leo21]

Valliant are crap back up and parts are expensive.. Ideal E type, Mexico, classic,logic, vogue..... Valliant turbo 242 then down hill. Early Eco with rubber hoses and cracked cony connections below hex. G10 fiasco...

Non electronic boilers don't really count, name a bad one!. The shear size of ideal Feau par has wiped the brand from my consciuosnes.

 

[LPC]

Valliant are crap back up and parts are expensive.. Ideal E type, Mexico, classic,logic, vogue..... Valliant turbo 242 then down hill. Early Eco with rubber hoses and cracked cony connections below hex. G10 fiasco...

Simply not true. Fitted a Plus that had a dodgy loom, customer rang me 3 days after install, Vaillant came out same day and sorted. Yes rubber hoses were a weak point, but very, very easily sorted.
Vaillant parts are not expensive at all compared to pretty much any other manufacturer. In fact, I find they're on the cheaper end for most things.

Build quality, reliability, backup; second to none, IMO. I try to fit the best for my customers, as they take my advice over any, and in my opinion all things considered, Vaillant are the best boiler you can spend your dollars on. But I have had a drink.

 

[Whyme]

Fitted the Vaillant 831 when it first came out, i was an advocate...After all the slug probs the rubber hose probs the continual diverter probs the dodgy pump probs the fact they now don't have knobs on the front only elderly unfriendly controls, we've ditched them. Ideal were complete sh**e but there vogue is top draw. i dont like the lower end but you'd have to be mad to like a budget from any manufacturer.

 

[IDCHAPPY]

I've fitted both and done the training courses on both, my first choice is still the Vogue.
Reasons i love it:
1. Easy to fit
2. Looks great(some homeowners are that shallow)
3. 10 Year warranty
4. Plenty of space in there, I'd rather a bigger boiler with lots of space than a tiny thing thats a barsteward to work on.
5. 7m head pump, easy control interface(you really need the codes for the vaillant) and light up dials 😀
6. I've got a free ipad to collect from points \o/

 

[Leo21]

Fitted the Vaillant 831 when it first came out, i was an advocate...After all the slug probs the rubber hose probs the continual diverter probs the dodgy pump probs the fact they now don't have knobs on the front only elderly unfriendly controls, we've ditched them. Ideal were complete sh**e but there vogue is top draw. i dont like the lower end but you'd have to be mad to like a budget from any manufacturer.

You say that but the Baxi Duo Tec isn't bad. Probably a complete accident, but quite robust.

 

[IDCHAPPY]

I know Ideal had a disastrophe with the isar/icos/istor and probably wish they never left the test board but they learnt a hard lesson and have come back with IMO one of the finest boilers of this generation in the Vogue.
The Logic is still a solid mid range boiler too with nearly 1.4 million fitted since launch.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I've fitted both and done the training courses on both, my first choice is still the Vogue.
Reasons i love it:
1. Easy to fit
2. Looks great(some homeowners are that shallow)
3. 10 Year warranty
4. Plenty of space in there, I'd rather a bigger boiler with lots of space than a tiny thing thats a barsteward to work on.
5. 7m head pump, easy control interface(you really need the codes for the vaillant) and light up dials 😀
6. I've got a free ipad to collect from points \o/

so your getting bribed to fit them 😀

 

[Ray Stafford]

Vaillants also have faults but a much bigger company to provide back up

I think that globally, this is true. Ideal has been sold to the Groupe Atlantique, whose turnover is just shy of Euro 1 billion, whereas the Vaillant global turnover is about Euro 2.3 billion.

However, in terms of unit sales in the UK, my understanding is that Ideal have now displaced Vaillant as the No 2 boiler, behind Worcester.

 

[Ermintrude]

How much is a pump head for a mark 2 Eco ? What u need housing aswell ? Ans the melting flue or the insulation on the door falling to bits?

 

[LPC]

The only time I see the door insulation fallen apart on Vaillants is when they've still not had the burner gasket changed to the graphite one and the seals been compromised. Usually when that's happened the door insulation is the least of the problems!

I did a pump the other day actually on a 7-year old Ecotec Pro. Had to change the entire hydraulic block and remove/refit diverter because they changed from Wilo to Grundfos. Whole job done in 40 mins start to finish. How many boilers can you say that about? Think I only paid about 150 for pump and block brand new.

 

[Leo21]

Tbh I think boiler spares prices are criminal. I get tired of telling custards how much the repairs are going to cost. When worked out against labour prices, parts are more than labour.Which is never right.

 

[bert large]

All boilers have or have had their weak points.
Vaillant's hoses & gasket problems. Worcester's splitting plastic parts etc. Glow-worms leaking from everywhere. Baxi Duo-Tec GA, Ferroli being Ferroli etc. etc.

Vaillant's current models have been on the market for around ten years now. Their build quality faults were sorted years ago & they continue to be a rock solid reliable boiler.

The litmus test will be if we can say the same about the Ideal Vogue in ten years time. If so then it will have earn't the right to be mentioned as a rival to the Vaillant in terms of reliability as the Baxi Duo-Tec HEA is.
I recall many creaming themselves about how good the Ideal Logic was several years ago but from what I hear those are suffering many breakdowns as they get older.

 

[Leo21]

All boilers have or have had their weak points.
Vaillant's hoses & gasket problems. Worcester's splitting plastic parts etc. Glow-worms leaking from everywhere. Baxi Duo-Tec GA, Ferroli being Ferroli etc. etc.

Vaillant's current models have been on the market for around ten years now. Their build quality faults were sorted years ago & they continue to be a rock solid reliable boiler.

The litmus test will be if we can say the same about the Ideal Vogue in ten years time. If so then it will have earn't the right to be mentioned as a rival to the Vaillant in terms of reliability as the Baxi Duo-Tec HEA is.
I recall many creaming themselves about how good the Ideal Logic was several years ago but from what I hear those are suffering many breakdowns as they get older.

What he said.

 

[drip-dry]

Tbh I think boiler spares prices are criminal. I get tired of telling custards how much the repairs are going to cost. When worked out against labour prices, parts are more than labour.Which is never right.

you should put ya labour price up then !!!

:wink_smile:

sorted

:conehead:

 

[hammers4spanner]

All boilers have or have had their weak points.
Vaillant's hoses & gasket problems. Worcester's splitting plastic parts etc. Glow-worms leaking from everywhere. Baxi Duo-Tec GA, Ferroli being Ferroli etc. etc.

Vaillant's current models have been on the market for around ten years now. Their build quality faults were sorted years ago & they continue to be a rock solid reliable boiler.

The litmus test will be if we can say the same about the Ideal Vogue in ten years time. If so then it will have earn't the right to be mentioned as a rival to the Vaillant in terms of reliability as the Baxi Duo-Tec HEA is.
I recall many creaming themselves about how good the Ideal Logic was several years ago but from what I hear those are suffering many breakdowns as they get older.

bang on the button

Vogue totally untested and as i said earlier i like the logic as good mid range boiler however faults are now showing

 

[Ivanwawryn]

I like all the vaillant a boilers, also Baxi 10 year warranty

 

[solutions]

Cos they're easy to install 😉 Is the Vogue system boiler as highly regarded as their combi's seems to be?

Yes, basicly the same boiler (unsurprisingly) just be aware there is no built in bypass on the system vogue.

 

[solutions]

Honestly I think you'd have to be absolutely mental to choose an Ideal over a Vaillant.

If money isn't an issue for the customer I would agree.

 

[solutions]

I think that globally, this is true. Ideal has been sold to the Groupe Atlantique, whose turnover is just shy of Euro 1 billion, whereas the Vaillant global turnover is about Euro 2.3 billion.

However, in terms of unit sales in the UK, my understanding is that Ideal have now displaced Vaillant as the No 2 boiler, behind Worcester.

Wow that's some interesting stats. But really we are comparing a Vailant boiler that has been around a while with some minor modifications and an ideal boiler that's fresh of the cad computer having clearly cloned the vailant. The next vailant will give them back the technological edge as soon as they start feeling the pinch of a competitors product outselling them, the designs they have tested and waiting in the wings will be launched and then ideal will take another 10 + years before deciding to clone another superior product. The winning features on the vogue are all things the vailant has and did first.

 

[Searcher2]

I know this is a 6 month old thread but I am trying to decide between a Vaillant Ecotec Pro/Plus or an Ideal Logic+/Vogue. The bloke I am waiting for prices on for Vaillants reckons he can give 7 year warranty on the Pro and 10 on the Plus making it the same warranty as the Ideal Logic+ and Vogue.

At work today I asked a service engineer for our commercial boilers if he was familiar with domsetic boilers. He reckoned that there are less problems with the Pro than the Plus and also less with the Logic+ than the Vogues. I was surprised by his claims - though he had nothing to gain by giving me false info. He reckoned that the stainless steel exchanger was liable to warping on the Vogue. Has anyone similar experiences?

Looking around the net it seems that in the event of a problem Vaillant seem to be slower to respond than Ideal and maybe more liable to try to wriggle out of the warranty. Am I wrong here? I am looking for a reliable boiler anyway so hope not to have to call out.

Quietness is also important and Vaillant are the only boilers to be Quiet Mark registered. Is there really a noticeable difference though?

Thanks in advance...

 

[julesverne]

Stainless steel heat exchangers prone to warping what tosh.
Vaillant also use stainless steel heat exchangers same as vogue.

From my experience only ever fitted 1 vaillant and it was ok but cant give a better report as ive not fitted enough to give an opinion on reliabilty.

Fitted loads of vogues and logics pluses and the vogue is superior.
Logics are a good boiler but without proper flushing and a good quality magnetic filter the diverter valve will fail. That said all new combis do that if not installed properly.

 

[erion]

Look into system boiler and cylinder it would be better for the future

 

[newcastle phill]

Regarding the noise aspect i have fitted both.
To my ear oddly the logic+ seemed the quieter but not a lot in it.0

 

[Searcher2]

Look into system boiler and cylinder it would be better for the future

Thanks... but no room for it. Well it may be possible but I think it would be a big job.

 

[Searcher2]

Regarding the noise aspect i have fitted both.
To my ear oddly the logic+ seemed the quieter but not a lot in it.0

I think the Logic+ has a lower DB rating on the specs but I hadn't seen anyone say it was quieter than the Vogue until now. Thanks

 

[newcastle phill]

Ahh vogue. Inwas referring to the logic+ Vs vaillaint

 

[Leo21]

What a load of. The pro and the plus are the same boilers apart from displays.

 

[PhoenixServices]

After spending years working for a company who mainly fitted glowworm and vailliant. I wouldn't fit one in my own home or in a customers unless they insisted.
Lost count of how many heat exchangers I flushed/ changed.

A lot of them were fitted by the company is was working for and were properly flushed with magnacleans fitted.
I fit logic+ and vogues as my choice.

 

[Silent Dancer]

Stainless steel heat exchangers prone to warping what tosh.
Vaillant also use stainless steel heat exchangers same as vogue.

From my experience only ever fitted 1 vaillant and it was ok but cant give a better report as ive not fitted enough to give an opinion on reliabilty.

Fitted loads of vogues and logics pluses and the vogue is superior.
Logics are a good boiler but without proper flushing and a good quality magnetic filter the diverter valve will fail. That said all new combis do that if not installed properly.

Stainless steel heat exchangers do warp when they're under or over pressure. That's why Vaillant have moved to a cast aluminium one on their new regular boilers.

 

[newcastle phill]

Cast alloy ones are cheaper and easier to produce.

Any metal will warp under certain circumstances

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

I would go Vogue everytime, i fitted one in my own house

 

[martint123]

I'm just coming up to two weeks of overnight losing pressure and 2 litres into a bucket from a Vogue. Three engineer visits and now waiting for parts for three days since the last one......

 

[Leo21]

I'm just coming up to two weeks of overnight losing pressure and 2 litres into a bucket from a Vogue. Three engineer visits and now waiting for parts for three days since the last one......

To be fair, any boiler can do that. But there's no excuse for the lousy back up.

 

[martint123]

Into the third week, slowly getting worse - losing pressure and leaking 2L 30 mins after thermostat going off (no problem when heating demand). Over a week now awaiting spare part - don't know what it is, but hope its the offending bit!

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

We have reviewed bot Vaillant boilers and Ideal boilers. Furhtermore, please find Worcester Bosch boilers review here.

If you want to advertise a business then you need to speak to Dan our Forum owner!

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

We have reviewed bot Vaillant boilers and Ideal boilers. Furhtermore, please find Worcester Bosch boilers review here.

If you want to advertise a business then you need to speak to Dan our Forum owner!