Boiler condemned by British Gas

[Deleted member 84970]

British Gas has condemned our boiler as the heat exchanger is leaking onto the circuit board.

We currently pay boiler care cover and thought that this would be covered, but the engineer who was actually a nice bloke said look i'll need to call my boss to see if we can cover this.

Couple of minutes later he said sorry my boss said its not covered as we were previously advised to do a powerflush.

He said he could fit the parts but it would cost us £400 or get British Gas to call us with a quote for a new boiler, which i said no just leave it.

When the guy was putting it back together I said, so if i had got the flush would the parts be replaced and he said no due to the parts that had already been fitted previously.

Would this cause the exchanger to leak and can the engineer determine thats why it failed even without taking the exchanger out ?

I know Im not going to get anywhere with this and just feeling frustrated as it will be a couple of months before i could get money together for a new boiler which i know i need

Thanks

 

[Harvest Fields]

What make and model of boiler is it. It isn’t a Ideal ISAR or ICOS is it?

 

[Deleted member 84970]

What make and model of boiler is it. It isn’t a Ideal ISAR or ICOS is it?

It’s a vokera boiler

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I've been out to one today bg wouldn't do the repair as the system needs a power flush

Turn out it was a leaky filling loop

Best get a second opinion

 

[Harvest Fields]

A second opinion is always an option

 

[snowhead]

Couple of minutes later he said sorry my boss said its not covered as we were previously advised to do a powerflush.

So you were advised, not warned that if you didn't have it done the boiler would fail or the Cover would be voided?

 

[Rob Foster]

The design of these boilers was always stupid , who locates a lecky unit under the water valve
It’s stupid , funny tho I know the designer of this boiler he is my friend hey ho

 

[Harvest Fields]

So you were advised, not warned that if you didn't have it done the boiler would fail or the Cover would be voided?

I do not think that is what the op is saying

 

[Harvest Fields]

The design of these boilers was always stupid , who locates a lecky unit under the water valve
It’s stupid , funny tho I know the designer of this boiler he is my friend hey ho

How do you know what model of vokera it is?

 

[Rob Foster]

How do you know what model of vokera it is?

I do not but they were not top hole

 

[Harvest Fields]

I do not but they were not top hole

You’ve lost me?

 

[rpm]

You’ve lost me?

Easily done of late 😛
Top hole, Top notch as in design quality?

 

[Harvest Fields]

Easily done of late 😛
Top hole, Top notch as in design quality?

Never heard Top Hole before mate .😀😛😛
Must be a northern thing.😀😀😀😀

 

[rpm]

I`m guessing here.

 

[townfanjon]

Never heard Top Hole before mate .😀😛😛
Must be a northern thing.😀😀😀😀

No its not

 

[Deleted member 84970]

So you were advised, not warned that if you didn't have it done the boiler would fail or the Cover would be voided?

The engineer said that It could do with a flush.
NOW that ive read their terms and conditions it says they can refuse to honor a claim based on that.

The water from the radiators were clear when they were bled. If it was needing a flush would the water be dirty?

 

[Harvest Fields]

The engineer said that It could do with a flush.
NOW that ive read their terms and conditions it says they can refuse to honor a claim based on that.

The water from the radiators were clear when they were bled. If it was needing a flush would the water be dirty?

All the dirt is sat at the bottom of the radiators and the edge of the pipework.the water at the top is normally clear or a little dark.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Simply do your rads heat evenly eg no cold spots in the middle bottom ?

 

[Deleted member 84970]

Simply do your rads heat evenly eg no cold spots in the middle bottom ?

No the radiators were nice and consistent with heat. Ive taken off one of the radiators and drained it and also used a big magnet (We use for magnet fishing 🙂 ) to see if i can drag any rust etc from the bottom of the radiator and put a hammer drill on it like the guys do when flushing it out and there doesnt look like much. Its not clear as tap water but more a light brown. I suppose though it might be in the boiler though.

Never mind gives me an excuse to cuddle the wife tonight, although It seems to be my fault anyway !!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Sounds like it doesn't need a flush

You will get the water dirty

If your handy and each rad has a drain off

Manually flush them open the drain off with a hose pipe out side into drain etc

Then re add inhb

 

[chris watkins]

The design of these boilers was always stupid , who locates a lecky unit under the water valve
It’s stupid , funny tho I know the designer of this boiler he is my friend hey ho

You have friends???

🙄

 

[Rob Foster]

You have friends???

🙄

My friends are plenty and diverse and people whom I cherish...in reply often
The products we design for the heating and plumbing market are in hindsight sometimes after production economics not what we planned

But we try

 

[smoggs03]

Without a doubt get a second opinion. I wouldn’t take BG’s word,with their incentives for staff who generate leads, upgrades and boiler sales or disciplinaries for those who don’t.

 

[Scott_D]

Sounds like you were never covered

Try a second opinion
Try a manufacturer one off repair - usually around £300 and get rid of the cover
Get a new boiler from an Independant installer with a nice long warranty

 

[Phil]

British gas engineers are salesmen, the good engineers are all wanting to leave and are doing as they are sick of being pressured to sell.

 

[Deleted member 84970]

Hi guys
Many thanks for all the replies and enjoyed reading some of the banter

New boiler is going in on a few weeks so just going to grin and bare it till then. Bought some heaters so not sitting in the cold but it’s the bathing that’s a nightmare especially fur the kids

Thanks

 

[Harvest Fields]

Are BG fitting or an independent?

 

[Deleted member 84970]

Got a local company to fit it.
They have advised on fitting Worcester Greenstar 34CDi

 

[Harvest Fields]

Have a look at the Vaillant Ecotec plus 835

 

[Deleted member 84970]

Have a look at the Vaillant Ecotec plus 835

Ill search the reviews as boilers mean nothing to me. Ive sent him a text message to see what he thinks.
Thanks

 

[Harvest Fields]

Ill search the reviews as boilers mean nothing to me. Ive sent him a text message to see what he thinks.
Thanks

We all have our favourites. His might be Worcester.

 

[Rob Foster]

Got a local company to fit it.
They have advised on fitting Worcester Greenstar 34CDi

Yuk get an ITAG they might be a little bit more but really are the bogs dolocks
Rob Foster, aka centralheatking

 

[ShaunCorbs]

cdi classics are good boilers but a bit on the large side

 

[Harvest Fields]

Yuk get an ITAG they might be a little bit more but really are the bogs dolocks
Rob Foster, aka centralheatking

Think you mean ATAG mate.

 

[Dannyk]

Never heard Top Hole before mate .😀😛😛
Must be a northern thing.😀😀😀😀

It's also used in south, but long ago, Bertey Wooster and Jeeves time.

 

[Deleted member 84970]

Yep, he phoned to say that the Worcester is his preferred choice!!

 

[Harvest Fields]

Yep, he phoned to say that the Worcester is his preferred choice!!

Doesn’t mean it is yours though.

 

[Deleted member 84970]

Doesn’t mean it is yours though.

I know, but I know hee haw about boilers. 😕

 

[Scott_D]

Are you having a magnetic filter?

 

[Deleted member 84970]

Are you having a magnetic filter?

Yes having a new one fitted. Im buying the parts so have to get a Worcester magnetic filter and that gives me an extra 2 years warranty !

Have also to get the boiler which is
Worcester Greenstar 34CDi Classic Combination Boiler Natural and flu pipe and a hive central heating controller !

Ive to goto cityplumbing and pay for it next week

 

[Harvest Fields]

Yes having a new one fitted. Im buying the parts so have to get a Worcester magnetic filter and that gives me an extra 2 years warranty !

Have also to get the boiler which is
Worcester Greenstar 34CDi Classic Combination Boiler Natural and flu pipe and a hive central heating controller !

Ive to goto cityplumbing and pay for it next week

You do not have to say, but did they give you a labour only quote ? Or a full install quote

 

[ShaunCorbs]

May I ask why your getting the parts

 

[Harvest Fields]

May I ask why your getting the parts

That’s where I was heading mate.

 

[Deleted member 84970]

No probs in answering that.
The guy whos doing it for us has an account with them and said he will get an order number and pay it that way. getting him to do other things as well so he said he will give us the price that he gets it for which im more than delighted with.
Dont worry hes very well known and Gas safe

 

[Harvest Fields]

No probs in answering that.
The guy whos doing it for us has an account with them and said he will get an order number and pay it that way. getting him to do other things as well so he said he will give us the price that he gets it for which im more than delighted with.
Dont worry hes very well known and Gas safe

Didn’t answer my question though?😀😀

 

[Deleted member 84970]

Didn’t answer my question though?😀😀

He has told me the price of the boiler and the labour cost 🙂

 

[Harvest Fields]

Ohh yeah. I done now.

 

[Ben-gee]

Maybe getting customer to buy the boiler etc to keep himself under the VAT threshold?

 

[firemant]

He has told me the price of the boiler and the labour cost 🙂

I have a friend who was a builder. He told his punters to go to the merchants and order and pay for materials at his trade price. They did not know that the order and payment was placed on his account. In fact, they paid more than hoss actual rate, and his account benefited from the balance.
OP:
But to get back to BG, was this "advice" ever in writing? If not, then I do not see how they could fall back on it. What were you being covered for, in return for your premiums, after the "advice".

Folk do not realise these contracts are insured based and governed by the Financial Conduct Authority. I would not take the bosses comments as gospel, especially if there is no instruction in writing.

 

[Ric2013]

It's an easy way to get the customer to pay for parts upfront. In the light of instances of rogue customers, not a bad plan.

Only problem is that if there is a problem with the boiler, it might be very easy for a situation to develop in which the installer refers the customer to the supplier but the supplier will probably say that it's probably an installation issue and refer the customer to the supplier. Who is right? Does it matter? Customer could be stuck in the middle.

 

[Deleted member 84970]

Unsure of the reason as to why he prefers me to do that. Either way im more than happy to do that plus his labour charge is less than other quotes i got, albeit the other company was alot bigger than this guy.

He is also doing it quicker for us which we are very grateful of as it was -2 this morning and my poor kids are freezing even with heaters scattered everywhere.

 

[Harvest Fields]

You have to do what is right for you and your family.

 

[Deleted member 84970]

But to get back to BG, was this "advice" ever in writing? If not, then I do not see how they could fall back on it. What were you being covered for, in return for your premiums, after the "advice".

Folk do not realise these contracts are insured based and governed by the Financial Conduct Authority. I would not take the bosses comments as gospel, especially if there is no instruction in writing.

What had happened was that we had to keep resetting the boiler. It would then stay on for 3 or 4 days without any issues then after that it would go off maybe twice a day.

The 1st engineer said to my wife that he renewed some filters in the boiler but should really get it flushed or a new boiler and we got a letter within a few days with a price. He never said it could cause damage etc...So it was hi opinion.
BG emailed me yesterday saying that if we are advised on the flush and we dont take it, then something happens then they can refuse the claim.

2nd engineer: My gripe is that this might not be the cause of the heat exchanger leaking as the engineer didnt remove it, so to me i dont see how he could say it got damaged with poor water quality (thats whats written on his sheet he left). Again it might have caused it to leak but you cant tell that from looking at it. Its the original exchanger so might have failed due to the age !........ At the same time he said the amount of parts previously replaced outweigh the cost of the boiler so to me thats the real reason they wouldnt do the repair. He said that all the previous repair come up on his computer and thats when he said he would need to call his boss.

He then kind of rubbed salt in the wound by saying he had the parts in the van but it would cost £400 or something plus vat

My other gripe is that BG knew we didnt get the flush but still continued to take our direct debit knowing that any future breakdown wouldnt be covered, even if we did get the flush..

 

[Rob Foster]

When we did central heating it was a piece of cake, get the customer to get a quote off bg and half it and we still made a good profit doing the job properly. I have friends in low places at Bg and they are not proud of the radical operation ie fixing or installing new stuff.
Not all bg fellas are bg anyway they can be hired in contractors
Running under bg flag. As you say tho it’s getting colder and you need reliable heating.
Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[Old Account]

Unsure of the reason as to why he prefers me to do that. Either way im more than happy to do that plus his labour charge is less than other quotes i got, albeit the other company was alot bigger than this guy.

He is also doing it quicker for us which we are very grateful of as it was -2 this morning and my poor kids are freezing even with heaters scattered everywhere.

Cheaper doesn’t mean better quality did you think about that?

 

[firemant]

What had happened was that we had to keep resetting the boiler. It would then stay on for 3 or 4 days without any issues then after that it would go off maybe twice a day.

The 1st engineer said to my wife that he renewed some filters in the boiler but should really get it flushed or a new boiler and we got a letter within a few days with a price. He never said it could cause damage etc...So it was hi opinion.
BG emailed me yesterday saying that if we are advised on the flush and we dont take it, then something happens then they can refuse the claim.

My other gripe is that BG knew we didnt get the flush but still continued to take our direct debit knowing that any future breakdown wouldnt be covered, even if we did get the flush..

Did the confirmation letter state that they would refuse further service? If not, they cannot rely on an email after the subsequent failure. They may have a clause in the contract itself to support them. However, I suspect a lawyer would say that by accepting further premiums, and without a letter stating further breakdowns would not be repaired, they are obliged to provide that service.

Assuming the letter did not make the relevant statement, my next move would be to ask them to provide a copy of the clause upon which they are relying. Don't let them get away with it. Don't do the common thing, threatening to tell the newspapers. They can handle newspapers, even of they were interested.

If they cannot come up with the clause, ask them how to complain to the FCA. They will definitely not like that. It costs them money even if a complaint is not upheld.

I had a slightly similar issue with an insurance company. To cut a long story short, they refused a claim upon the definition of "property". After countless calls and discussions, I asked them to outline the clause or paragraph that would support their definition. They gave up and paid out.


Good luck.

 

[firemant]

Did the confirmation letter state that they would refuse further service? If not, they cannot rely on an email after the subsequent failure. They may have a clause in the contract itself to support them. However, I suspect a lawyer would say that by accepting further premiums, and
without a letter stating further breakdowns would not be repaired, they are obliged to provide that service.

Assuming the letter did not make the relevant statement, my next move would be to ask them to provide a copy of the clause upon which they are relying. Don't let them get away with it. Don't do the common thing, threatening to tell the newspapers. They can handle newspapers, even of they were interested.

If they cannot come up with the clause, ask them how to complain to the FCA. They will definitely not like that. It costs them money even if a complaint is not upheld.

I had a slightly similar issue with an insurance company. To cut a long story short, they refused a claim upon the definition of "property". After countless calls and discussions, I asked them to outline the clause or paragraph that would support their definition. They gave up and paid out.


Good luck.

 

[Rob Foster]

At the end of the day we discussing the reality of a family with redundant heating whom are cold. I say it’s only going to get colder , just do,it get someone in fitba while new boiler on the nevervnever if nec and keep,ur family warm

Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[firemant]

On Friday, the OP said it would be a few months before they can do anything, funds wise. Every one has a different tolerance level regarding heat or lack of it, and I do not recall mention of kids. It is not for you to encourage folk to get into debt - you have no idea of their circumstance, financial or otherwise. The fact is (on the face of it) that BG are pushing their customer around, and it is not on.

Fact:
BG plans are governed by the FCA, who have teeth.
BG changed their selling practices to avoid FCA sanctions
Every complaint, whether upheld or not, attracts charges
The supervisor may be in the wrong - too many folk say what they think should be the case, rather than checking their facts.
Way too many punters take the word of nameless operatives, rather than arguing their point, believing their is no point
BG managers are (or at least were) ranked on their average call out cost, and are incentivised to keep these as low as possible.
People make mistakes.

If the OP wins her argument, they could have heating back on the same day.

EDIT: Just noticed the earlier response re kids.

 

[firemant]

About-our-insurance-services.pdf

Financial Conduct Authority

 

[Deleted member 84970]

Hi folks,
Really never thought i would get this much response from my post. When i posted i think i was angry and ranting and just wanted to share with someone.

So many many thanks for the comments and the great advice given. If there is a paypal link i wouldnt mind donating if you guys have one as it is a great site !

We managed to borrow a few heaters so the house is fine and the kids have those onesies so fine in bed at night.

I have a thing about things being plugged in at night so last night i knew the temperature was dropping so i got up early and put the heaters on. Thank god because it was -2.

Kids are at school during the day and we are both out at work so although not ideal we are managing.

Its funny because it makes you realise how lucky we really are with the poor souls out on the streets and families and old folk who cant afford to put the heating on. It was also a great topic to talk to the kids about.

A few posts up mentioned that cheapest is not the best. I agree but the guy doing fitting it is doing us a favor and he is a local well known heating engineer. I really think the guy had sympathy for us as he said he wished he could do it sooner and he actually was one of the guys who loaned us a heater. So to him we are equally grateful and will make sure the favor is returned.

 

[Ric2013]

I don't understand how you are not managing to keep the house warm using electric heaters.

If they are the oil-filled rads, that makes sense, because a lot of them are electrically rated at 3kW but then cannot actually give 3kW as heat to the room so they cycle on and off, so perhaps they give out 1.5kW only, or less.

A kW or two per room is usually sufficient, and most electric heaters will give out at least 1 kW, if set to full. Expensive way of heating a house, but it should work. I'm obviously missing something.

 

[Deleted member 84970]

I don't understand how you are not managing to keep the house warm using electric heaters

We managed to borrow a few heaters so the house is fine and the kids have those onesies so fine in bed at night.

 

[keith duval]

I don't understand how you are not managing to keep the house warm using electric heaters.

If they are the oil-filled rads, that makes sense, because a lot of them are electrically rated at 3kW but then cannot actually give 3kW as heat to the room so they cycle on and off, so perhaps they give out 1.5kW only, or less.

A kW or two per room is usually sufficient, and most electric heaters will give out at least 1 kW, if set to full. Expensive way of heating a house, but it should work. I'm obviously missing something.

if its rated at 3kw why should it not do that??
guess i will never be a plumber

 

[DuncanM]

Happy to take money when it is heading in their direction. Kick you off contract when they decide you are no longer likely to be profitable, with an older boiler they might actually have to fix after 10 years of "servicing". Really if they have been "servicing" the appliance from new there should be no sludge in the system as they should have been keeping inhibitor levels etc right in the water ways of the heating system.

 

[Mastermixlee]

Hi,
Firstly it is incredibly unlikely that the attending engineer had a vokera heat exchanger on the van unless it was ordered specifically for that job. It is not a general van stocked item.
So I suspect the job may have been booked in and the attending engineer wasn't fancying the work involved so used the old powerflush get out.

Have you had any other parts replaced that have failed due to reported evidence of sludge?
If not then they have to honour the first fault as stated in their terms and conditions. It is only once it has been proven to have been caused by water quality issues that they can then refuse claims on future sludge related failures unless a powerflush is performed.

Also if you are going to go ahead and get the boiler replaced then ensure your installer is thoroughly powerflushing the system as part of the works, otherwise you may find yourself in a similar scenario with regards to voided boiler warranty due to not being flushed sufficiently before installation.

Lee

 

[centralheatking]

Hi,
Firstly it is incredibly unlikely that the attending engineer had a vokera heat exchanger on the van unless it was ordered specifically for that job. It is not a general van stocked item.
So I suspect the job may have been booked in and the attending engineer wasn't fancying the work involved so used the old powerflush get out.

Have you had any other parts replaced that have failed due to reported evidence of sludge?
If not then they have to honour the first fault as stated in their terms and conditions. It is only once it has been proven to have been caused by water quality issues that they can then refuse claims on future sludge related failures unless a powerflush is performed.

Also if you are going to go ahead and get the boiler replaced then ensure your installer is thoroughly powerflushing the system as part of the works, otherwise you may find yourself in a similar scenario with regards to voided boiler warranty due to not being flushed sufficiently before installation.

Lee

This is how BG stacks up. The service call at £13 per month does not return a profit for British Gas. Every call out costs £65.00 so a two hit job pushes them into a loss on that property.
Thats why Centrica are trying to sell it all off but no one wants it because of the pension mountain. So all their service and radical boys are under massive pressure
to sell up in any way shape or form. It might be a CO monitor, a magnaclean or in your case a new heating system...there is residual profit in there. Mind you because they are in a hole the new boiler and system installs are great value if you look at the whole package, interest free and loads of cover inc. but make sure you nail the salesman down to the floor and make him return at least twice as he will give you a good deal second time...out of his % from the 1st time..
I would always use a local outfit but in this no neighbours modern world no one talks to their neighbours...I know all mine. they are lovely .centralheatking

 

[gmartine]

JFHC, do check the OP date before going off on one.

 

[Ric2013]

if its rated at 3kw why should it not do that??
guess i will never be a plumber

I think Which? (The Consumers' Association) brought this to my attention. I can confirm I had a DeLonghi 3kW rated oil filled rad. The heating element was indeed 3kW and when switched on and running, it would draw 3kW through the electricity meter. However, once the oil was warm, the radiator was unable to transfer the heat out of the oil as fast as the heating element was heating the oil. So at this point a safety temperature heat limit thermostat stopped it heating any more until it cooled down a little (all exactly as described in the Which report). In practice, in normal usage, the 3kW rated oil-filled rad was converting electricity into heat at around 2kWh per hour if I remember correctly, not 3kWh per hour as would be expected.

Since a water-filled radiator in use in a central heating system is rated for conditions that are not anywhere near that far out from normal usage conditions, a 2kW central heating radiator will chuck out (roughly) the 2kW you would expect.

As such I would agree with you. If it's rated at 3kW it should do that! And, in practice, a fan heater, halogen, or even the very cheap type of convector heater where you can see the wires generally does do that, so I think it's very misleading.

 

[townfanjon]

Hold da bus guys , Ancient post !!!

 

[Ric2013]

Hold da bus guys , Ancient post !!!

Not really. Keith asked me a question yesterday, hence replying.

 

[centralheatking]

I think Which? (The Consumers' Association) brought this to my attention. I can confirm I had a DeLonghi 3kW rated oil filled rad. The heating element was indeed 3kW and when switched on and running, it would draw 3kW through the electricity meter. However, once the oil was warm, the radiator was unable to transfer the heat out of the oil as fast as the heating element was heating the oil. So at this point a safety temperature heat limit thermostat stopped it heating any more until it cooled down a little (all exactly as described in the Which report). In practice, in normal usage, the 3kW rated oil-filled rad was converting electricity into heat at around 2kWh per hour if I remember correctly, not 3kWh per hour as would be expected.

Since a water-filled radiator in use in a central heating system is rated for conditions that are not anywhere near that far out from normal usage conditions, a 2kW central heating radiator will chuck out (roughly) the 2kW you would expect.

As such I would agree with you. If it's rated at 3kW it should do that! And, in practice, a fan heater, halogen, or even the very cheap type of convector heater where you can see the wires generally does do that, so I think it's very misleading.

I use several 2 kw flood lights in my workshop, 100% efficient heat & light
centralheatking