Can somebody please point out the issues with this installation, thank you

[Chris140]

I would really appreciate it if a plumber could point out the issues with this installation and what needs to be corrected.
It is a radiator installed in a boarded loft that is used for storage.
The pipes come across from the radiator down through the ceiling, down the upstairs landing wall and under the floor to join up to the central heating pipes. The pipe and fittings are Flomasta, PEX barrier pipe.

Thank you

 

[ShaunCorbs]

What’s the issue ?

 

[Chris140]

What’s the issue ?

Thanks for replying
In picture 4, should the push fit elbow be pushing on the edge of the joist?
In picture 5, should the pipes with connectors on be hanging through the ceiling unclipped with no support?
In picture 6, should the pipes have more clips?
In picture 7, should the pipes be hanging with no support, should the tee's be touching and one of them looks like it is not in straight, does that not mean that it may not be inserted correctly?
Also should there not be collet clips on them?

Thanks very much for looking

 

[Last Plumber]

There is nothing fixing the radiator in position as far as I can see. I know they have legs but that is for weight, it will not stop them being knocked/pushed over. Apart from that, it just looks like it was done by a DIY enthusiast with plastic pipe. It probably works?
Did you go for the cheapest quote? Just curious. Did you know the installer?

 

[Chris140]

There is nothing fixing the radiator in position as far as I can see. I know they have legs but that is for weight, it will not stop them being knocked/pushed over. Apart from that, it just looks like it was done by a DIY enthusiast with plastic pipe. It probably works?
Did you go for the cheapest quote? Just curious. Did you know the installer?I actually went for the dearest quote and waited 4 weeks for him to do it because he was booked up. I didn't know he was putting plastic in until he had finished. After he had gone, I noticed that the majority of the fixings had not even been tightened up, I noticed this because you could see a green band in a few of them, which is obviously to warn you that they are not closed properly. The floor was pushing down on the two tee's connected to the copper pipe and it was all moving.I switched the heating on for a short time to check that the radiator was heating up, the pipes going down the wall bent all over the place when they got hot and one dropped down the clip and the elbow was then sitting on the top of the clip. No collet clips on eithe

For some reason he had ordered a radiator that had only been primed and without telling me, he started spraying the radiator with high VOC radiator spray in the loft, no ventilation, no windows open in the house, the fumes were unbearable, I had to tell him to stop, so that's why it looks the way it does, there was then a white mist off the spray all over everything as well.

On looking at the pipework, I felt that the pipes coming through the ceiling should not be hanging down unclipped and the edge of the elbow over the joist in the loft is touching the edge of the joist, will this not put stress on the connections when the pipes are hot and are expanding and then cooling? There doesn't seem to be enough pipe clips down the wall. Also the tee's joined to the copper pipes under the floor don't look right, one of them doesn't look like it is straight, so I am concerned that it may not be inserted correctly. I don't know how he even got them in because there is no sideway movement at all in the pipes. Also there is nothing supporting the pipes and connectors under the floor either, which I thought there should be.
I also noticed a bit of like a brown liquid under one of the connections on the side of the radiator, I don't know what that is! I then found out from the company that the radiator is from, that he should have flushed the system after installing the cast iron radiator, they said that he would have had an email after ordering to tell him it was important to do so. So has my system now got all of the manufacturing bits etc out of the radiator floating round and even compromising the plastic fittings that he has just put in?

 

[Chris140]

On looking at the pipework, I felt that the pipes coming through the ceiling should not be hanging down unclipped and the edge of the elbow over the joist in the loft is touching the edge of the joist, will this not put stress on the connections when the pipes are hot and are expanding and then cooling? There doesn't seem to be enough pipe clips down the wall. Also the tee's joined to the copper pipes under the floor don't look right, one of them doesn't look like it is straight, so I am concerned that it may not be inserted correctly. I don't know how he even got them in because there is no sideway movement at all in the pipes. Also there is nothing supporting the pipes and connectors under the floor either, which I thought there should be.
I also noticed a bit of like a brown liquid under one of the connections on the side of the radiator, I don't know what that is! I then found out from the company that the radiator is from, that he should have flushed the system after installing the cast iron radiator, they said that he would have had an email after ordering to tell him it was important to do so. So has my system now got all of the manufacturing bits etc out of the radiator floating round and even compromising the plastic fittings that he has just put in?

Sorry, I do not know what happened with my post then, it has missed some off and separated it.
I didn't use the cheapest plumber and I had to wait for weeks for him to fit it in. He hadn't even tightened the connections up, you could still se the green warning indicator band on some them.
Thanks for your replies.

 

[snowhead]

No support for the radiator, if it gets (accidentally) pulled over it will break someone's toes / ankle, as well as possibly pulling the pipework apart.

There may be an issue with flow rate, plastic has a lower flow rate than the equivalent sized copper as plastic has a greater wall thickness hence smaller internal diameter.

Plastic off a coil will never look tidy, it will always want to revert to coiled.
Plastic joints have a limited tolerance (see manufacturers spec) of misalignment of pipe to joint before they may leak.

If the radiator had been moved to the right a few inches / cm then the pipes could have dropped vertical into the floor, if it had been moved even further to the right the pipes would have dropped straight through the floor then ceiling, giving 2 less elbows / likelihoods of leaking in each pipe
Being a loft, if height prevented the move more to the right, the pipework could have remained on the floor till it could drop directly down and through the ceiling.

It looks like it may even have been possible to drop the pipes through the loft floor in line with the wall, more joints saved.

Running the left hand pipe directly under the rad would have saved another joint.

Yes the pipes should be closer to and supported from the ceiling.
And generally more support clips.

The copper in the floor looks to be in notches, it's usually possible to lift pipes up enough to get a joint in.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thanks for replying
In picture 4, should the push fit elbow be pushing on the edge of the joist?
In picture 5, should the pipes with connectors on be hanging through the ceiling unclipped with no support?
In picture 6, should the pipes have more clips?
In picture 7, should the pipes be hanging with no support, should the tee's be touching and one of them looks like it is not in straight, does that not mean that it may not be inserted correctly?
Also should there not be collet clips on them?

Thanks very much for looking

Ahh I see another person installed it how much did they charge ?

 

[Chris140]

Ahh I see another person installed it how much did they charge ?

£680 with materials, the radiator was £226 and the pipe and fittings are the cheap Flomasta rubbish from Screwfix, which I am also very concerned about from the reviews on the elbows! so he was paid approx just over £400, he didn't have to get the radiator into the or lift or replace any boards or measure where the pipe could come through the ceiling. We had already done it all. He was here less than 3 hours. I'm also concerned if any of the fittings have not been attached properly or anything seen as he didn't even close them up properly. When there is a green indicator on the fitting to warn you that you haven't closed it, how do you miss that!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

£680 with materials, the radiator was £226 and the pipe and fittings are the cheap Flomasta rubbish from Screwfix, which I am also very concerned about from the reviews on the elbows! so he was paid approx just over £400, he didn't have to get the radiator into the or lift or replace any boards or measure where the pipe could come through the ceiling. We had already done it all. He was here less than 3 hours. I'm also concerned if any of the fittings have not been attached properly or anything seen as he didn't even close them up properly. When there is a green indicator on the fitting to warn you that you haven't closed it, how do you miss that!

If you’re not happy get them back ? And explain what your not happy with and why

 

[Chris140]

No support for the radiator, if it gets (accidentally) pulled over it will break someone's toes / ankle, as well as possibly pulling the pipework apart.

There may be an issue with flow rate, plastic has a lower flow rate than the equivalent sized copper as plastic has a greater wall thickness hence smaller internal diameter.

Plastic off a coil will never look tidy, it will always want to revert to coiled.
Plastic joints have a limited tolerance (see manufacturers spec) of misalignment of pipe to joint before they may leak.

If the radiator had been moved to the right a few inches / cm then the pipes could have dropped vertical into the floor, if it had been moved even further to the right the pipes would have dropped straight through the floor then ceiling, giving 2 less elbows / likelihoods of leaking in each pipe
Being a loft, if height prevented the move more to the right, the pipework could have remained on the floor till it could drop directly down and through the ceiling.

It looks like it may even have been possible to drop the pipes through the loft floor in line with the wall, more joints saved.

Running the left hand pipe directly under the rad would have saved another joint.

Yes the pipes should be closer to and supported from the ceiling.
And generally more support clips.

The copper in the floor looks to be in notches, it's usually possible to lift pipes up enough to get a joint in.

Thanks very much for your reply. I am not sure if you can see it properly in the picture, but one of them is not straight, so I am concerned that he may have not inserted it properly or even cut the hole the right size, because obviously the pipe is meant to be pushed in to the fitting straight and right up to the inside.
Using the cheap Flomasta stuff from Screwfix as well, the reviews from plumbers on the elbows are terrifying. Do you think, I am right about the edge of the elbow being pressed against the joist in the loft too? Thanks

 

[Chris140]

If you’re not happy get them back ? And explain what your not happy with and why

I tried to, he said there's nothing wrong with the installation and that plastic pipe is used everywhere as standard now instead of copper. He said he would come back and close the fittings that he hadn't closed properly and put a couple more clips on the lengths of pipe down the wall. But when I said that was not the only issues etc, he put the phone down on me. I then messaged him and said if he is not going to even have a conversation with me, I would unfortunately have seek further advice. He then messaged me, the job was completed to spec and blocked my number. As I say I later also discovered that he had had an email sent to him from the company he purchased the (unpainted) cast iron radiator from saying it was very important to flush the system after installation. Which he obviously didn't do. So he may have compromised the plastic he has just put in and the rest of my heating system with the debris etc left over from the manufacturing of the radiator. I'm guessing that that might have been what the brown stuff is that was coming from one of the connections on it.
Thanks

 

[Chuck]

One more thing... plastic pipework usually needs to be pressure tested before sign off, was that done? If you are suspicious about the workmanship check that pipe inserts have been used properly. See manufacturer's instructions for details.

You have quite a lot of consumer rights, so-called 'implied terms', if you can be bothered to enforce them. Any work done by a tradesman must be carried out with reasonable care and skill, which should include installing pipework and fittings in accordance with the manufacturers' instructions. Consult, for example, Trading Standards or the Citizens' Advice website for more information.

 

[Chris140]

One more thing... plastic pipework usually needs to be pressure tested before sign off, was that done? If you are suspicious about the workmanship check that pipe inserts have been used properly. See manufacturer's instructions for details.

You have quite a lot of consumer rights, so-called 'implied terms', if you can be bothered to enforce them. Any work done by a tradesman must be carried out with reasonable care and skill, which should include installing pipework and fittings in accordance with the manufacturers' instructions. Consult, for example, Trading Standards or the Citizens' Advice website for more information.

Thanks very much for replying. I had seen online afterwards about the pressure testing, I didn't know if that was still relevant since there was only one radiator added with the pipe. But no he didn't do that.

He wasn't putting any inhibitor back in when he refilled the system either, I had to ask him to, he wasn't happy about it but he did it. But as I say, he was supposed to flush the system after installation too according to the place he purchased the radiator from.

He just said that the work was completed to spec and then will not reply, it actually looks as if he has blocked my number. So I will try to email him, but I just need to hear from a qualified plumber that the points that I have noticed are correct. I have asked a few local plumbers but they will not go into detail, they just say I should replace it.
One of my original concerns was if he had missed any inserts or not pushed the pipe in far enough or anything after seeing that he had missed the very simplest of things in not making sure the connections were closed properly, but obviously that's not something you can tell from just looking at it.

I have had a five year nightmare which is still ongoing because of tradesmen, that I had massively researched and didn't go for the cheapest quotes either and have had my house destroyed and further damaged my health. I am constantly being ripped off and then having to borrow again to try to get it fixed, but then the next person messes that up as well or causes other damage to my house in the process. The electrician that started the whole disaster had caused that much serious, unrepairable and life threatening damage, that he dissolved his business so that I could not sue him. He then restarted under a different name.

Thanks

 

[Chuck]

I have had a five year nightmare which is still ongoing because of tradesmen, that I had massively researched and didn't go for the cheapest quotes either and have had my house destroyed and further damaged my health. I am constantly being ripped off and then having to borrow again to try to get it fixed, but then the next person messes that up as well or causes other damage to my house in the process. The electrician that started the whole disaster had caused that much serious, unrepairable and life threatening damage, that he dissolved his business so that I could not sue him. He then restarted under a different name.

Operating a so-called 'Phoenix company' is illegal, e.g.

Phoenix Trading UK: Illegal Company Risks & Director Liability Guide

Key Takeaways Phoenix trading in the UK occurs when directors close an insolvent company and restart a similar business soon after, sometimes moving assets and leaving debts behind. Not all company restarts are illegal, but directors risk breaking the law if their actions enable avoidance of...

go-legal.co.uk

and you should report such behaviour:

(a) to your local authority's Trading Standards dept and see if they can help / advise, and

(b) to the Insolvency Service.

There are exceptions, but tradesman are often reluctant to get dragged into other people's legal disputes. However, for a small claims case you don't usually need a formal report, a quotation for improving the existing installation to meet proper standards and before-and-after photos should be enough to satisfy the judge. A building surveyor's report on the work in question may be even better but you may not get the fees covered by the award if you win.

It may be too late to help you but, in my opinion, anybody contemplating extensive work refurbishing a house should seriously consider employing a chartered building surveyor to manage the project. They will: go through the work required and draw up proper specifications for the trades to work to; appoint the necessary tradesmen; supervise the work; deal with snags and quality control; make sure Building Regs are complied with; etc. People are often put off because they imagine that the surveyor's fees will cut into the budget but, in my, experience they invariably save as least as much as their fees.

 

[Chris140]

Operating a so-called 'Phoenix company' is illegal, e.g.

Phoenix Trading UK: Illegal Company Risks & Director Liability Guide

Key Takeaways Phoenix trading in the UK occurs when directors close an insolvent company and restart a similar business soon after, sometimes moving assets and leaving debts behind. Not all company restarts are illegal, but directors risk breaking the law if their actions enable avoidance of...

go-legal.co.uk

and you should report such behaviour:

(a) to your local authority's Trading Standards dept and see if they can help / advise, and

(b) to the Insolvency Service.

There are exceptions, but tradesman are often reluctant to get dragged into other people's legal disputes. However, for a small claims case you don't usually need a formal report, a quotation for improving the existing installation to meet proper standards and before-and-after photos should be enough to satisfy the judge. A building surveyor's report on the work in question may be even better but you may not get the fees covered by the award if you win.

It may be too late to help you but, in my opinion, anybody contemplating extensive work refurbishing a house should seriously consider employing a chartered building surveyor to manage the project. They will: go through the work required and draw up proper specifications for the trades to work to; appoint the necessary tradesmen; supervise the work; deal with snags and quality control; make sure Building Regs are complied with; etc. People are often put off because they imagine that the surveyor's fees will cut into the budget but, in my, experience they invariably save as least as much as their fees.

Thanks very much for taking the time to reply. Take care.

 

[Chris140]

No support for the radiator, if it gets (accidentally) pulled over it will break someone's toes / ankle, as well as possibly pulling the pipework apart.

There may be an issue with flow rate, plastic has a lower flow rate than the equivalent sized copper as plastic has a greater wall thickness hence smaller internal diameter.

Plastic off a coil will never look tidy, it will always want to revert to coiled.
Plastic joints have a limited tolerance (see manufacturers spec) of misalignment of pipe to joint before they may leak.

If the radiator had been moved to the right a few inches / cm then the pipes could have dropped vertical into the floor, if it had been moved even further to the right the pipes would have dropped straight through the floor then ceiling, giving 2 less elbows / likelihoods of leaking in each pipe
Being a loft, if height prevented the move more to the right, the pipework could have remained on the floor till it could drop directly down and through the ceiling.

It looks like it may even have been possible to drop the pipes through the loft floor in line with the wall, more joints saved.

Running the left hand pipe directly under the rad would have saved another joint.

Yes the pipes should be closer to and supported from the ceiling.
And generally more support clips.

The copper in the floor looks to be in notches, it's usually possible to lift pipes up enough to get a joint in.

Thank you very much for your reply, it is really appreciated

 

[Fusion]

Thank you very much for your reply, it is really appreciated

Hi Chris
I would definitely add additional support to the radiator a bracket to the wall etc. The pipe work is very shoddy. Plastic pipes should be clipped at regular intervals. On the old cast radiators I would advise to plumb the radiator so the flow enters at the top and return at the opposite side bottom. That gives a better flow through the radiator.
Get a bag of clips and a bracket or something to secure the radiator and that should suffice. For a more professional install, get a plumber/heating engineer in.

 

[Chris140]

Hi Chris
I would definitely add additional support to the radiator a bracket to the wall etc. The pipe work is very shoddy. Plastic pipes should be clipped at regular intervals. On the old cast radiators I would advise to plumb the radiator so the flow enters at the top and return at the opposite side bottom. That gives a better flow through the radiator.
Get a bag of clips and a bracket or something to secure the radiator and that should suffice. For a more professional install, get a plumber/heating engineer in.

Hi, thanks very much for your reply. It was a plumber/heating engineer that did it. I told him that I was not happy with it, there were other issues as well and he just said that the job was done to spec. He had put the phone down on me and I think he has blocked my number. I posted the pictures on here to get some advice on how to fix some of it myself because I cannot afford to pay anybody else. Or if it's that bad that I needed to borrow more money to get it redone.
Thanks again

 

[Corgisince1974]

I would really appreciate it if a plumber could point out the issues with this installation and what needs to be corrected.
It is a radiator installed in a boarded loft that is used for storage.
The pipes come across from the radiator down through the ceiling, down the upstairs landing wall and under the floor to join up to the central heating pipes. The pipe and fittings are Flomasta, PEX barrier pipe.

Thank you

You should name and shame the cowboy that installed that. Sadly I regularly see similar installations on my travels. I would never use plastic pipe other than on underfloor heating. Pipes should always rise to a radiator without sagging or dropping leaving a high point that can’t be vented, otherwise you run the risk of air-locks. The whole lot needs stripping out and replaced with copper.

 

[Chris140]

You should name and shame the cowboy that installed that. Sadly I regularly see similar installations on my travels. I would never use plastic pipe other than on underfloor heating. Pipes should always rise to a radiator without sagging or dropping leaving a high point that can’t be vented, otherwise you run the risk of air-locks. The whole lot needs stripping out and replaced with copper.

Thanks very much for your reply I really appreciate it. I will have to do something, this keeps happening to me!!

 

[Corgisince1974]

Thanks very much for your reply I really appreciate it. I will have to do something, this keeps happening to me!!

Where do you live?

 

[Chris140]

Where do you live?

Liverpool

 

[Corgisince1974]

Liverpool

Too far away otherwise I would have offered to do a written report free of charge. We need to get rid of these cowboy rip off merchants.

 

[Chris140]

Too far away otherwise I would have offered to do a written report free of charge. We need to get rid of these cowboy rip off merchants.

Thanks very much anyway, it was very good of you to offer. I had someone ask me to send them a video of the installation and he would send a report. I sent him the video and he just sent me a quote to redo it, I think that was maybe another one trying to rip me off. There's no getting away from them! Thanks again, I wish there were more people like you around. Take care.

 

[Zippymark]

I'd describe that as a sub-DIY level job to be honest. No care has been take there whatsoever.

Plastic always looks rubbish where it's exposed, especially heating pipes which get hot, then go softer, then sag/contort. I installed a rad run like this once because it's what the LL actually wanted, he wanted it done as cheaply as possible, and it looked awful. They got painted, and that then cracked like a snakeskin when the pipes heated and expanded.

As for the positioning, the legs are definitely not sufficient on their own, that could easily be knocked over. I'm guessing it was pretty heavy, and will be moreso once filled with water. Is this just going to end up in the middle of the room? It seems an odd place to put it.

 

[Chris140]

I'd describe that as a sub-DIY level job to be honest. No care has been take there whatsoever.

Plastic always looks rubbish where it's exposed, especially heating pipes which get hot, then go softer, then sag/contort. I installed a rad run like this once because it's what the LL actually wanted, he wanted it done as cheaply as possible, and it looked awful. They got painted, and that then cracked like a snakeskin when the pipes heated and expanded.

As for the positioning, the legs are definitely not sufficient on their own, that could easily be knocked over. I'm guessing it was pretty heavy, and will be moreso once filled with water. Is this just going to end up in the middle of the room? It seems an odd place to put it.

Hi, thanks for replying. Yes it weighs about 30kg. It is in the middle of the loft floor. It is used for storage, long story, but the radiator was a last resort. I told him I was concerned about the stability and he said he would make sure it was secure, whilst it's stable, it can still be knocked over. The plumber says there's nothing wrong with his installation! And to make it worse, I didn't even want plastic in the first place!

 

[Ric2013]

I must say I would not have carried out that installation and been happy to leave it like that. I know this is an old thread, but I wish to comment for future reference as this is my industry and I would find it deeply disappointing if this kind of standard became acceptable. Whoever installed this is not serious competition to me, but I might take more than 3 hours. I am not going to comment on price as there are so many variables.

Not a fan of plastic pipe myself but it can be certainly be done more tidily than this. There are times when plastic is more appropriate than copper and I do use it from time to time. My main issues with it is that, to do it well is not necessarily easier than copper as it needs more support, nor is it necessarily cheaper than copper when you consider the fittings are expensive. I think most of the regulars on this forum would have done a better job if they had been asked to do this installation in PEX.

Rad2 - is the valve plumb or at a slight angle to the vertical? It would look better if it were plumb, but this is merely an aesthetic issue if the pipe is happy as it is.
Rad1 - why is this only half-painted?
Rad6 - the vertical pipes are the wrong length. There is no reason to have the fittings sitting in the void between the joists and then have to come back up to pass over the next joist. Also the horizontal pipe is the wrong length as the 90° bend is being tried to be pulled out of its natural angle (accommodated, luckily, by the natural flexibility of the pipe).
Rad4 - Collet clips are not mandatory as far as I am aware (unless this manufacturer specifies them), but I would have liked to see them used here, given the proximity of that release ring to the joist.
Rad3 - Why not cut the pipes to a length that allows them to sit parallel to the ceiling and to one another?
Rad7 - Unless the manufacturer specifies a certain clipping distance and this has not been adhered to, while one might like to see more clips, it may be a matter of opinion.
Rad9 - Not bad for underfloor pipework as it doesn't really need to look pretty, but would have been better to find another way of supporting the pipe than to sit it on the plasterboard. A noggin (basic method), or Munsen or similar clips attached to a threaded rod (advanced method), screwed to the sides of the joist would have been better. And I'm not happy with the proximity of those hot pipes to the electric cable when even a scrap of wood could have been used to keep them from touching. I'm not too worried about the bend in the pipe leaving the tee as it seems to me just the way the pipe wants to bend : could be tidier, but I don't think it's a technical problem.

As others have said, the Consumer Rights Act applies. With regard to the choice of pipe manufacturer, the installer is free to choose this (unless you agreed on a specific brand) but you have your consumer rights if the installation does not last 'a reasonable time'. The aesthetics of the job would probably not pass muster if this were an NVQ assessment in a City and Guilds college, so it could be argued that this is not 'reasonable quality', but I suppose it depends on what was discussed. Please don't explain it to me as I'm not the one you need to convince (in the nicest possible way, I'm not really interested in taking sides, I'm just commenting on the work itself).

As far as the flushing issue is concerned, the gold standard for any new radiator on an existing installation is cold flush, drain, hot flush with a system cleanser, drain, and refill. In practice, I don't insist on this standard most of the time and many customers, particularly with older systems, when we discuss the issues, decide to not bother, particularly when I can achieve a saving by freezing off a section, working, and reconnecting without draining most of the system at all. The main issues are that oil in the radiator from manufacture (and left in to protect from rust?) can damage rubber seals in the system, and flux in soldered joints (doesn't apply to you) can promote corrosion. As the rad manufacturer suggested flushing the 'system' they are not suggesting flushing the radiator before installation, so are only underlining what is already considered to be best practice in the industry.

One point of interest remains : why do you want a radiator in a loft?

 

[Chris140]

I must say I would not have carried out that installation and been happy to leave it like that. I know this is an old thread, but I wish to comment for future reference as this is my industry and I would find it deeply disappointing if this kind of standard became acceptable. Whoever installed this is not serious competition to me, but I might take more than 3 hours. I am not going to comment on price as there are so many variables.

Not a fan of plastic pipe myself but it can be certainly be done more tidily than this. There are times when plastic is more appropriate than copper and I do use it from time to time. My main issues with it is that, to do it well is not necessarily easier than copper as it needs more support, nor is it necessarily cheaper than copper when you consider the fittings are expensive. I think most of the regulars on this forum would have done a better job if they had been asked to do this installation in PEX.

Rad2 - is the valve plumb or at a slight angle to the vertical? It would look better if it were plumb, but this is merely an aesthetic issue if the pipe is happy as it is.
Rad1 - why is this only half-painted?
Rad6 - the vertical pipes are the wrong length. There is no reason to have the fittings sitting in the void between the joists and then have to come back up to pass over the next joist. Also the horizontal pipe is the wrong length as the 90° bend is being tried to be pulled out of its natural angle (accommodated, luckily, by the natural flexibility of the pipe).
Rad4 - Collet clips are not mandatory as far as I am aware (unless this manufacturer specifies them), but I would have liked to see them used here, given the proximity of that release ring to the joist.
Rad3 - Why not cut the pipes to a length that allows them to sit parallel to the ceiling and to one another?
Rad7 - Unless the manufacturer specifies a certain clipping distance and this has not been adhered to, while one might like to see more clips, it may be a matter of opinion.
Rad9 - Not bad for underfloor pipework as it doesn't really need to look pretty, but would have been better to find another way of supporting the pipe than to sit it on the plasterboard. A noggin (basic method), or Munsen or similar clips attached to a threaded rod (advanced method), screwed to the sides of the joist would have been better. And I'm not happy with the proximity of those hot pipes to the electric cable when even a scrap of wood could have been used to keep them from touching. I'm not too worried about the bend in the pipe leaving the tee as it seems to me just the way the pipe wants to bend : could be tidier, but I don't think it's a technical problem.

As others have said, the Consumer Rights Act applies. With regard to the choice of pipe manufacturer, the installer is free to choose this (unless you agreed on a specific brand) but you have your consumer rights if the installation does not last 'a reasonable time'. The aesthetics of the job would probably not pass muster if this were an NVQ assessment in a City and Guilds college, so it could be argued that this is not 'reasonable quality', but I suppose it depends on what was discussed. Please don't explain it to me as I'm not the one you need to convince (in the nicest possible way, I'm not really interested in taking sides, I'm just commenting on the work itself).

As far as the flushing issue is concerned, the gold standard for any new radiator on an existing installation is cold flush, drain, hot flush with a system cleanser, drain, and refill. In practice, I don't insist on this standard most of the time and many customers, particularly with older systems, when we discuss the issues, decide to not bother, particularly when I can achieve a saving by freezing off a section, working, and reconnecting without draining most of the system at all. The main issues are that oil in the radiator from manufacture (and left in to protect from rust?) can damage rubber seals in the system, and flux in soldered joints (doesn't apply to you) can promote corrosion. As the rad manufacturer suggested flushing the 'system' they are not suggesting flushing the radiator before installation, so are only underlining what is already considered to be best practice in the industry.

One point of interest remains : why do you want a radiator in a loft?

Hi, thanks very much for taking the time to reply. I did not know he was putting plastic in until he had done the job, I assumed he was using copper. The radiator is only half painted because without telling me he had only purchased a primed one and then proceeded to start spraying it in my loft with very high voc spray with no ventilation, with me and my son in the the upstairs rooms just below, I had to stop him because the fumes were unbearable. The house is very small, the white mist off the spray was all over everything, even downstairs. The radiator in the loft is a long story, but the short of it is, is it was a last resort due to the loft getting wet in the winter after having to completely seal it in to stop rats getting in that were entering the roof spaces along the row of houses. I had paid a lot to get ventilation put in but that didn't help, It is used for storage. I have had too many bad jobs done now, I have chronic health conditions and ended up having a breakdown over what tradesmen have done to my home over the past 5 years and it is still not sorted. I research them and don't go for the cheapest either. I have ended up in debt now because of them, I now don't have any confidence in any of them. We are therefore thinking of just trying to redo this installation ourselves in copper pipe using the Tectite sprint push fit fittings as recommended by another plumber on here, and a couple of compression slip couplers to rejoin the pipes further down. It would be too near the gas pipe to attempt to solder. We have had to redo most of the bad work that has been done by others.

 

[Chuck]

The radiator in the loft is a long story, but the short of it is, is it was a last resort due to the loft getting wet in the winter after having to completely seal it in to stop rats getting in that were entering the roof spaces along the row of houses. I had paid a lot to get ventilation put in but that didn't help, [...]

We are therefore thinking of just trying to redo this installation ourselves in copper pipe using the Tectite sprint push fit fittings as recommended by another plumber on here, and a couple of compression slip couplers to rejoin the pipes further down. It would be too near the gas pipe to attempt to solder. We have had to redo most of the bad work that has been done by others.

I think that reinstalling the radiator in the roof is likely to be throwing good money after bad. The chances that a radiator will fix the 'loft getting wet' are near-zero.

In my opinion, you need to do three things:

(a) investigate how and where the water (or water vapour) is getting into the roof space;
(b) reduce the ingress as far as possible;
(c) understand and improve the ventilation of the space to the point it consistently keeps the humidity below the dew point.

 

[Chris140]

I think that reinstalling the radiator in the roof is likely to be throwing good money after bad. The chances that a radiator will fix the 'loft getting wet' are near-zero.

In my opinion, you need to do three things:

(a) investigate how and where the water (or water vapour) is getting into the roof space;
(b) reduce the ingress as far as possible;
(c) understand and improve the ventilation of the space to the point it consistently keeps the humidity below the dew point.

Thanks very much for replying. I tried a small electric heater in there before getting the central heating one installed, believe it or not it does help massively. I have spoken to numerous roofers and ventilation specialists, payed out hundreds to get vents installed and been given conflicting advice. I have basically been told that to correct it, the whole roof would need to be redone with a new breathable felt, otherwise insulating it could make matters worse. So hopefully the radiator will suffice.

 

[Ric2013]

Hope it all works out for you, old chap. All I can suggest regarding the loft is try to limit any air from your house from getting up into your loft e.g. draft strips around your loft hatch and seal around any holes through your first floor plaster ceiling (like your plumber probably hasn't bothered), but I expect you are already on the case.

You could re-do with Tectite, though there's nothing wrong with plastic pipework, if done with a bit of care.

Sorry you've had such a bad experience with tradesmen in general. If it gives you a free laugh, I started thinking about training as a plumber after three registered gas installers failed to stop my boiler going into overheat lockout mode because none of them noticed it had been plumbed in backwards (many years before I bought the house). I ended up diagnosing the 'fault' myself and £3 of pipe fittings later, I had it working perfectly.

 

[Chris140]

Hope it all works out for you, old chap. All I can suggest regarding the loft is try to limit any air from your house from getting up into your loft e.g. draft strips around your loft hatch and seal around any holes through your first floor plaster ceiling (like your plumber probably hasn't bothered), but I expect you are already on the case.

You could re-do with Tectite, though there's nothing wrong with plastic pipework, if done with a bit of care.

Sorry you've had such a bad experience with tradesmen in general. If it gives you a free laugh, I started thinking about training as a plumber after three registered gas installers failed to stop my boiler going into overheat lockout mode because none of them noticed it had been plumbed in backwards (many years before I bought the house). I ended up diagnosing the 'fault' myself and £3 of pipe fittings later, I had it working perfectly.

Old chap!! I'm a young lady!! Well, wrong side of 40, very nearing 50!!😂😂 Thanks very much for your reply again. A lot of the work I've had to do myself has been much more professional than the so called professionals, if I was not so ill, I would do it myself as a job 🙈
The plastic tee's under the floor are too big, the floor is pressing down on them and pulling the rest of the pipework, that's why I was thinking of using the tectite, because the fittings are much smaller. But I'm not sure about them being in a sealed wall. I am still debating what to do, obviously it would be better to be done in copper, soldered (if done properly) but I could not handle it going wrong again. And I have also noticed a very slight weep of brown liquid appearing from one of the connections on the radiator, it's just like a drop appears from under the connection each day. Can't try to put a slight turn on it, because it's one piece, so the whole fitting has to be turned, but obviously it is connected to the pipework. What would you suggest I do? Thanks