Continuous noisy pipes and water tank + huge water leak

[surrey9211]

Hello,

Three days backs, the pipes in my flat next to the hot water tank banged violently for a few seconds (water hammer?). Since then, the water in the pipes is creating a whooshing sound that comes for a brief period when the toilet is flushed or tap is used. In addition, the cold water storage in the loft is producing gurgling sound, like a kettle boiling. The noise has been constant for the last three days.

Today I noticed that the hot water finishes shortly after it is switched off, which led me to suspect if there was a leak. I took a reading of my water meter when no water was used in the property. A dial on it was spinning very fast. I took the reading and compared it with the one on my meter. Turns out that the water usage from 9 June up until today (26 July) is 70m3 whereas the water usage for the 6 months before that was 75m3. I took another reading today after 6 hours of the first reading which gave a difference of 3m3, when the actual water used during this time was negligible. This clearly suggests that there is a leak. The strange thing is that there is no apparent leak in the property and no damp walls. It seems like water is constantly entering the property and going straight to the drain.

Any idea what is the cause of the issue and whether this is something I can sort myself? I am renting the property so have requested the estate agent to ask the landlord to look into this. However, in light of past experience it may take weeks for the landlord to respond which means that I may have to foot a huge water bill. Therefore I am keen to sort this myself if possible.

For now I have tried to close the stop tap to prevent further water waste but it appears jammed. I did not apply force to rotate it as per advice by a YouTube DIY video. Is it okay to apply force to close it?

I will be grateful for all advice and suggestions.

Best wishes,

 

[moonlight]

Do you have an overflow running outside from a roof tank or a toilet running somewhere that could explain your water usage/leak. Its difficult to diagnose a noise from a roof tank with out seeing it. Does the roof tank now have hot or warm water in it? I wouldn't force the internal stop tap, it needs someone who maybe able to free up or replace if necessary. If you really have to turn the water off it can be done at the main stop tap outside the property.

 

[RayW]

As you pay the water bill directly inform the water company. They are usually very quick to respond to water wastage.

 

[Ric2013]

Could be there is an overflow that is not terminated to a visible location (which would mean that the overflow is not to current standards, by the way - it should be obvious if there is an overflow taking place).

You are right to follow this up to save the £3 per cubic metre stuff and I would argue that the cost, now that you have spotted there is a problem and informed him, should be your landlord's if he has not made any effort to maintain the internal stopcock (unless, obviously, you haven't previously allowed him to access the property for maintenance which does not sound to be the case in your instance).

A cubic meter is 1000 litres, so what you have is 500 litres an hour. Could this be a total failure of a float valve (ballcock) on the cold water cistern? I'd start by looking there.

 

[surrey9211]

Many thanks for your replies and suggestions.

@moonlight: There is no visible overflow and that is the mystery. It seems like water is entering the tank and straight out in the drain. Roof tank appears to be a cold water storage. The hot water tank is next to the bathroom.

@RayW: I have contacted the water company. They will send someone within 10 working days to check if the leak is in the mains.

@Ric2013: Indeed, but there is no sign of overflow given the large amount of water waste. I have not inspected the water tank lest I break something. Waiting now for the landlord to send a plumber.

I read an article which said that water hammer can cause damage to plumbing. As the issue started after water hammer/pipes banging, I wonder if that damaged something in the plumbing. Btw, water hammer was reported to the landlord previously but the engineer could not ‘reproduce the fault’ and I was asked to pay call-out charges despite video evidence 🙁

Thank you again. I will update this thread for posterity when the issue is resolved

 

[Timmy D]

Many thanks for your replies and suggestions.

@moonlight: There is no visible overflow and that is the mystery. It seems like water is entering the tank and straight out in the drain. Roof tank appears to be a cold water storage. The hot water tank is next to the bathroom.

@RayW: I have contacted the water company. They will send someone within 10 working days to check if the leak is in the mains.

@Ric2013: Indeed, but there is no sign of overflow given the large amount of water waste. I have not inspected the water tank lest I break something. Waiting now for the landlord to send a plumber.

I read an article which said that water hammer can cause damage to plumbing. As the issue started after water hammer/pipes banging, I wonder if that damaged something in the plumbing. Btw, water hammer was reported to the landlord previously but the engineer could not ‘reproduce the fault’ and I was asked to pay call-out charges despite video evidence 🙁

Thank you again. I will update this thread for posterity when the issue is resolved

If you can post some pics of the system (hot water cylinder/pipework, loft tank/pipework) we might able to advise further.

As ric2013 pointed out, if you readings are correct, that’s an awful lot of water.

Can you ensure that you’re not using any water and then go and lift the main manhole cover and see if there is water? It would indicate if the discharge is going through a purpose made discharge.

 

[surrey9211]

If you can post some pics of the system (hot water cylinder/pipework, loft tank/pipework) we might able to advise further.

As ric2013 pointed out, if you readings are correct, that’s an awful lot of water.

Can you ensure that you’re not using any water and then go and lift the main manhole cover and see if there is water? It would indicate if the discharge is going through a purpose made discharge.

Many thanks for your kind offer of help Timmy D.

Please find the pictures in the attached files. The blue tank is the hot water tank and the black tank is the one in the loft and right above the hot water tank. The gate valves near the hot water tank appear jammed as well and do not move.

I live in compound of flats (around 70 flats) that apparently share the same manhole. Would water flow in it be a reliable indicator of discharge from my property?

Everyone:

I will appreciate advice on the below.

1. The landlord as usual is not responding and I am getting distressed about the implications for the water bill. Thames Water, my water supplier, has said that cost of leaks can be 'shared'. I wonder however if the issue is related to the ballcock valve in the water tank, would that be eligible for a leak allowance?

2. Any idea how much would a plumber in the London/Surrey area will charge for getting the stop valve working (the stop valve appears jammed and does not move).

Best wishes.

 

[Ric2013]

1. All those internal valves are not the water company's responsibility. The water undertaker is responsible for the external stopcock (normally in the road) so unlikely they will make an allowance for non-functional internal plumbing. Worth asking, though.

If that water tank in the loft has been installed since 1999, then it would not appear to have been installed in line with the Water Supply (water fittings) Regulations 1999 (nor, probably, if older, the earlier local byelaws) in that if one of those top copper pipes is a float valve the valve is not properly supported, which may make. More an issue in your case is that there should be a local isolator on float valves you could have turned off to see if it solved the problem - and there does not appear to be one! And why no insulation?

2. Change or free a stopcock? Whatever the local rates are. Very unlikely to be more than two hours' work, and probably less than one hour, but will depend on the circumstances of your flat.

I'm not sure why you think lifting the plastic lid off that black cistern to have a look is likely to break anything, but I commend you for your caution.

Where is that white plastic pipe from the cistern going? That is the overflow and shouldn't normally have water flowing through it. So worth seeing where it ends.

Your landlord sounds useless.

 

[Ben-gee]

Ric.

The inlet valve is on the end , 15mm.
The white plastic is the overflow, do you think the 22 copper is the vent from the cylinder? This looks wrong, I can’t see a loop up and over for the vent so I think it may be?
If so I think the cylinder overheated and put hot into the cold tank, this was probably the banging sound.
A competent plumber should attend.

 

[Ric2013]

Ric.

The inlet valve is on the end , 15mm.

Certainly looks like it, I agree.

The white plastic is the overflow, do you think the 22 copper is the vent from the cylinder? This looks wrong, I can’t see a loop up and over for the vent so I think it may be?

That would be my guess too. 'Wrong' and not to regs, but no different from a Fortic cylinder when you think about it - and not what is causing the leak.

There are a number of non-compliances with the current regulations here. But if it's been like that for years, ho hum (in my opinion), but the immediate issue is the leak.

OP - another thing to bear in mind is that the Artex ceiling should be treated as if it contains asbestos unless it has been proven not to contain asbestos (lab test). It's fine if left alone. So anyone drilling holes when doing work should be following very strict rules. If in any doubt, contact Environmental Health or the HSE.

 

[Timmy D]

As others have said, you need to look inside the tank/pics.

 

[surrey9211]

Once again thank you to you for your valuable suggestions. An Engineer attended the property and resolved the issue. The issue was described as follows in their report:

"Investigated in loft space and found cwst was constantly filling as ball valve had snapped off, the gurgling was from the overflow pipe as the water was constantly running through it, the banging was due to the faulty ball valve as well. Have supplied and fitted new ball valve in cwst This has resolved the issue".

Many of you had suspected the same. Upon my inquiry, the Engineer advised that the water tank met the specifications/standards.

Thank you again.

Best wishes.

 

[moonlight]

Once again thank you to you for your valuable suggestions. An Engineer attended the property and resolved the issue. The issue was described as follows in their report:

"Investigated in loft space and found cwst was constantly filling as ball valve had snapped off, the gurgling was from the overflow pipe as the water was constantly running through it, the banging was due to the faulty ball valve as well. Have supplied and fitted new ball valve in cwst This has resolved the issue".

Many of you had suspected the same. Upon my inquiry, the Engineer advised that the water tank met the specifications/standards.

Thank you again.

Best wishes.

As quite a few of us suggested the ball valve/ overflow.

 

[Ric2013]

As quite a few of us suggested the ball valve/ overflow.

The OP acknowledged that.

It is, however, a sad indictment of the plumbing industry when someone can look at that installation, claim it complies with the Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999, and call themselves an 'engineer'. Isambard Kingdom Brunel will be rolling in his grave. Unless of course, the 'engineer' was merely commenting that the cistern itself (and not the installation of the cistern) is a compliant model, in which case he is she is being very specific and is very much a true engineer and very careful with choice of words.

There are a number of issues with the installation, but I would argue none of them are especially serious.

 

[Timmy D]

Thank you for the update.