Customer has challenged me...

[Nat]

Evening all I could do with your help...

A potential customer has a Baxi Bermuda back boiler and I'd like to put in a 25/30Si Worcester. Thing is he has been told that the lifespan of a combi boiler is so short that he won't benefit from any efficiency saving that a band A-rated boiler would bring. He has asked if I can convince him otherwise.

Does anyone have any info for me or could tell me where to look? I am thinking what could a typical household expect to save in their gas bills by changing from a back boiler/cylinder to modern combi? What is the expected lifespan of a Worcester Bosch combi if serviced regularly? How dangerous are open flued appliances like the Bermuda? Anyone got any other horror stories about Baxi Bermudas? Anything else that would be helpful in convincing him!

There is a £10 prize for whoever gives the most informative/helpful post! (As judged by me)

By the way I have asked Worcester Technical and am waiting for a response.

Thanks,

Nat

 

[diamondgas]

Tell him to look here Sedbuk for a start to give him an idea of the possibilities! 🙂 If he's a pensioner then it's a valid argument but you could go down the line of saving money on the gas to pay for an au pare when his missus pegs it!!! lol 🙂

 

[Simon F]

it will depend on amount of gas used
a gas bill for heating of say £1000 a year for a 60 percent efficient boiler could be cut to about £700
for a new boiler

 

[Phil]

I'm not a boiler man but I'll have my ten quid if there's one going. :biggrin5:

 

[Barry98]

use your feminine charm ?

 

[AWheating]

i like back boilers.

 

[SimonG]

Tell him it ain't going to last forever, bit like him, then what's he going to do.

Don't hold your breath on an answer from worcester.

 

[diamondgas]

Same website as before pump in the values of existing and then new here [DLMURL="http://www.boilers.org.uk/cost.htm"]Fuel Costs[/DLMURL] as a comparison .... Truth is you have no proof! If you're trying to sell a new boiler your best bet it to sound out the custards needs or concerns and reflect the benefits a new appliance can offer in comparison to the existing ... IMO 🙂

 

[Mike Jackson]

If it's working fine I wouldn't change it. Not worthwhile unless it's knackered.

 

[quality]

Please do not take out a solid cast iron reliable working unit and replace it with a load of plastic
There are some good boilers available as I am sure you know

 

[Leo21]

You can't. Think your customers right. An average house hold gas bill is aprox £500 to £600. With a saving of about 40% with a new boiler it doesn't add up. You'll. Either have to wait till its knackered or they want it.

 

[tamz]

Ha. That is a hard one to answer truthfully.

 

[Nat]

Thanks for all the great replies so far!

I don't want to try to sell him something if I don't believe it really is worth it to him.

Energy Saving trust says based on 3 bed semi you can save around £300 a year upgrading from band g to band a. It will take a while but you can get your money back!

Anyone have any ideas on the expected lifespan of new Worcesters?

As for the guys who work on the Bermudas - is it easy to still get hold of all the parts you need?

 

[Nat]

Ha. That is a hard one to answer truthfully.

Please elaborate Tamz. Do you think this customer would be better off sticking with his old back boiler?

 

[Nat]

Diamondgas is in the lead for the tenner at the moment...

 

[diamondgas]

Thanks for all the great replies so far!

I don't want to try to sell him something if I don't believe it really is worth it to him.

is it easy to still get hold of all the parts you need?

Who raised the question regards replacement Nat? If it was He then i'd guess he's got a concern? You can either alleviate that or give him a load of bumff! How old it the BBU? I have on contract 30+yrs and working fine 🙂!

 

[Rickster123]

Tell him to keep the back boiler and give it a good service! It will out live him and his kids I've no doubt! Swap that for a Worcester SI? No thanks!

 

[fuzzy]

Chess documents can help

remember its not just the boiler efficiency but new controls really improve the owner experience and save more money than you imagine

 

[stevetheplumber]

if theres no problems with the back boiler id tell him to keep it as long as possible wish i still had one one gas valve one stat one thermocouple thats it rare you need to change anything other than a thermocouple
where as the combi will need a fan every 5 years and possibly a board various thermistors and sensors and there goes the saving

 

[Rickster123]

I don't think anyone will argue that it will save money on the gas consumption but in the life of a bbu I bet you'd go through 2 or 3 combis.

 

[Rickster123]

Just had a panic that we weren't in the arms then!

 

[Nat]

Who raised the question regards replacement Nat? If it was He then i'd guess he's got a concern? You can either alleviate that or give him a load of bumff! How old it the BBU? I have on contract 30+yrs and working fine 🙂!

He contacted me about servicing them and I said i don't but if you are in the market for a new boiler let me know. He then told me what I said above but if I could convince him otherwise he may be interested in a new boiler.

I have done a couple of BB replacements but the customer has always come to me and said 'I want a combi'. I have never had to 'sell' it before and wanted to back up my claim with facts and figures. If I come to the conclusion he's better off sticking with his Baxi I will tell him - I am not that desperate for the work.

I don't know the age of the BB - I have not even seen the guy's house yet. He may even need system boiler/unvented.

Appreciate the input.

 

[Leo21]

Just had a panic that we weren't in the arms then!

Imagine if this thread got out, we'd e out of work. And gas man would have to take up changing basin taps.

 

[fuzzy]

Imagine if this thread got out, we'd e out of work. And gas man would have to take up changing basin taps.

hes not nicking my work grrrr

 

[REDSAW]

simple, put a sime murelle in and tell him for the next 10 years it will not cost anything if it goes wrong as parts and labour are guranteed for the 10 years.

if it goes wrong in year 11, you will give him a free replacement.

then change your phone number!!!!!.

 

[chris watkins]

It will out live him and his kids I've no doubt! Swap that for a Worcester SI? No thanks!

That might be sooner than you or he thinks if that flue blocks !!! LOL

Don't forget to tell him how much safer the new boilers are & no drafts in the living room. That should save a bit !!

 

[Leo21]

simple, put a sime murelle in and tell him for the next 10 years it will not cost anything if it goes wrong as parts and labour are guranteed for the 10 years.

if it goes wrong in year 11, you will give him a free replacement.

then change your phone number!!!!!.

Tut tut I I expect more from a beacon of morality such as yourself, a moderator as well!

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

well a regularly serviced, in good nick Baxi Bermuda will outlive any combi you could do a BG and tell him parts are hard to get hard to get in all honesty i tried to get a gas control tap for a Baxi GF today they are now obsolete

 

[diamondgas]

TBH who really gives a chuff to the freekin ozone!!! :rofl: Human race can burn for its inconsiderate abuse of the earth resources!!! :d:d

 

[Nat]

well a regularly serviced, in good nick Baxi Bermuda will outlive any combi you could do a BG and tell him parts are hard to get hard to get in all honesty i tried to get a gas control tap for a Baxi GF today they are now obsolete

So parts are becoming obsolete or this is a blag BG give to get their boiler jobs?

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

So parts are becoming obsolete or this is a blag BG give to get their boiler jobs?

if its a bermuda 552 then only the combustion box and insulation panels are obsolete depending on the fire fitted to it other bits are unobtainable

 

[REDSAW]

Tut tut I I expect more from a beacon of morality such as yourself, a moderator as well!

its called 'fit and forget'.lol.

 

[diamondgas]

I love the work you can do an a fireside to be honest! Beats the modern stuff where a freekin dead bumble bee makes the job worth while!!!

 

[tamz]

The gas savings will be around 200 odd a year depending on what size of house, a good chunk of that coming from ripping the cylinder out. so say a 10 - 15 year payback depending on the install cost but it works out longer. The customer will be used to a boiler that never breaks down and needs very little attention and anything it does need is cheap and easy to fix. He may or may not have had it serviced every year but we all know not many are.
The new boiler will need serviced (or checked) yearly just to keep the guarantee. It is definitely going to break down in the future at some point and the repair costs will be expensive.
The new boiler will be on the way out after 10 or so years (who knows exactly, they have not been out long enough to prove otherwise) where the old bbu, as long as it is not falling apart with rust, would still be working and ready repairable in 10 years.
It just depends on his outlook. If he has asked you to price him a new one then he is already interested in doing it. Sell the good points.
Get rid of an ageing unfashionable fire (though he might like it) and choose a new modern fire (gas or electric) if he wishes.
Get extra space when the hw cylinder comes out (some people like the idea of a back up even if they have never needed it).
If the wife will miss the airing cupboard offer to fit a radiator in there so it can still be used as one.
Instant hot water and only heat what you use, no wastage.
A 30%+ reduction on gas consumption.
Less carbon emissions (save the planet)
A 5 year guarantee.
etc etc
A lot depends on his age, his attitude to being green, whether he wants to impress his pals down the bowling club or just whether he can afford it.

 

[tamz]

Btw, if it was me and i has to pay to get one put in, unless i was sick of looking at the fire i'd keep it.

 

[REDSAW]

''it's less likely to kill you''

 

[tamz]

''it's less likely to kill you''

Buses can kill you too :smile:

 

[Mike Jackson]

Fit a CO alarm instead of a new boiler then.

 

[Nat]

The gas savings will be around 200 odd a year depending on what size of house, a good chunk of that coming from ripping the cylinder out. so say a 10 - 15 year payback depending on the install cost but it works out longer. The customer will be used to a boiler that never breaks down and needs very little attention and anything it does need is cheap and easy to fix. He may or may not have had it serviced every year but we all know not many are.
The new boiler will need serviced (or checked) yearly just to keep the guarantee. It is definitely going to break down in the future at some point and the repair costs will be expensive.
The new boiler will be on the way out after 10 or so years (who knows exactly, they have not been out long enough to prove otherwise) where the old bbu, as long as it is not falling apart with rust, would still be working and ready repairable in 10 years.
It just depends on his outlook. If he has asked you to price him a new one then he is already interested in doing it. Sell the good points.
Get rid of an ageing unfashionable fire (though he might like it) and choose a new modern fire (gas or electric) if he wishes.
Get extra space when the hw cylinder comes out (some people like the idea of a back up even if they have never needed it).
If the wife will miss the airing cupboard offer to fit a radiator in there so it can still be used as one.
Instant hot water and only heat what you use, no wastage.
A 30%+ reduction on gas consumption.
Less carbon emissions (save the planet)
A 5 year guarantee.
etc etc
A lot depends on his age, his attitude to being green, whether he wants to impress his pals down the bowling club or just whether he can afford it.

Thanks Tamz this is the sort of fair and balanced argument I was looking for.

YOU ARE THE WINNER!

Post or PM your phone number and I will Ping over the tenner

 

[Millsy 82]

My uncle had a baxi BBU taken out and vaillant 831 put in its place the savings were alot more than I thought it was (I think it was £250-£300 a year) that was 3 people living in a 3 bed house each having a bath each day

If you go combi to combi the savings are rubbish it will take atleast 10 years to pay for itself.

I agree to keep the BBU as long as the heat ex hasnt popped then they are great chuck a tc every 3 years very rarely have a problem

 

[tamz]

Thanks Tamz this is the sort of fair and balanced argument I was looking for.

YOU ARE THE WINNER!

Post or PM your phone number and I will Ping over the tenner

Thanks for the offer. Stick a pound in a charity box.

 

[REDSAW]

is there a runner up prize?

 

[Nat]

Thanks for the offer. Stick a pound in a charity box.

Ok Tamz. I will donate a tenner to a charity of your choosing. Which one?

 

[Nat]

Thanks all for your help on this one. I am going to put the pros and cons to him and let you know if i get the job.

 

[Rickster123]

Ok Tamz. I will donate a tenner to a charity of your choosing. Which one?

Rangers F.C!

 

[tamz]

Rangers F.C!

I'm afraid they are beyond help :lol:

 

[peteheat]

Went out to an old Sime with a Bentone burner ready to fall out, I got it to work was about to start the replace it spiel when the old man said Ah that's great will it see me out?

Not thinking I replied sure if your not planning on living long.

He placed the order for a new Grant vortex with all the bells and whistles, new rads the lot, think it came to a little north of €7,000.

Every week for the following winter he rang the office describing his home as like living in Florida, he marked the oil level on the tank each week and was telling everyone who would listen how cheap his heating was with all the upgrades.

My point being sometimes you have to meet the people & see the system to work out what they need as opposed to what they want, don't forget it is your job to sell him the upgrade how many times have we heard customers dissing the last guy for telling them their was another five years life in the system?


For the whole winter

 

[nick/matt1]

new combis have a design lifespan of 10 years. Unless his system has been regularly maintained, flushed and inhibited, there are likely to be issues with the old system, and unless the system in powerflushed and filters inserted on the returns, problems with new combi after conversion will evolve. Baxi produce a bbu which could replace current boiler if it is knackered. The benefits of conversion are easier servicing, no tanks in loft, so no legionella risks, freeking pipes or ballcock failure problems..give him the pros and cons, and then let him/her decide...you can only advise and guide..