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Masood
Hi Chris,
Can't argue whatsoever with what you say - there is no substitute for gradual development of skills under the supervision of an expert. The kind of repetition that an apprentice gets over 4 years leads to a level of skill that simply cannot be taught in a purpose-built training warehouse somewhere, with nice open bays, clean floors, all the equipment at your fingertips and no customer peering over your shoulder!
I agree that the training companies have sold an expensive dream to so many people who had no hope whatsoever of achieving it. I'd say probably 70% of the candidates training at the same time as me on the C&G would have no hope in hell in the real world - either no capable of the physical aspects, or too squeamish to deal with the less sanitary side of things, or too abrasive to be able to deal with the public. The "selection" process for these companies is laughable - can you enter your PIN? OK, then you've passed the entrance exam.
But we are living in a climate where people are desperate to do *something*, *anything* - no job is secure, no career is future-proof any more. You can't blame people for clutching at opportunities (or the dream of an opportunity). Perhaps the answer is for the government to spend real, meaningful amounts of money on apprenticeship schemes, not only for 16-year-olds, but for older candidates too. Perhaps equally the answer is to force training companies to be honest about earnings, and realistic about who they take on. Perhaps the answer lies with plumbers themselves - so few people are willing to take on trainees, whether for plumbing or gas portfolios. I know it slows them down, but surely that's better than leaving training and development to profit-making firms? I don't know, to be honest - if I did I'd probably be rich! 🙂
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Mike Jackson
You said you never turn a job down. What happens when the roads are flooded or there's 2 foot of snow on the ground? You'll be stuck at the side of the road while us sensible types pootle past you in our land rovers.
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Masood
Aaah! Sorry, that went right over my head LOL. Um, you got me there - I guess I need a landy! I wonder if the tax man would see it as a legitimate business need?
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petercj
Well said Masood, you have given some sound and constructive advice, which for anyone thinking of setting out should be valuable.
Like you, I have been rather surprised at some of the harsh responses some people have received over inquiries into training courses, after all, they are the ones doing some well placed research by asking questions in this forum, and they are NOT the naive ones who think they will make a quick fortune out of the plumbing/gas industry.
Fact is, there are no easy answers to finding employment in most industries at the moment.
The plumbing and gas industry went through a period of skill shortages for around 20 years, which meant that those that were competent in the industry had some good times. People who experienced the golden era of gas & plumbing over the past 30 years have Mrs Thatcher to thank for putting policies into place that led to the skills shortage. At the end of the 90's steps were take to address the skills shortage and now the pendulum has swung the other way, made worse of course by the current recession.
However, as in the recession of the 70's, there will always be some people who can make it if they give it their all and they have an aptitude for the work they want to do. Attitude and aptitude count for a lot when learning any trade.
Those that have worked in the industry over a long period will no doubt have accrued many skills, but some of the old hands will be tired and demotivated, while some of the younger experience tradesmen will be complacent and picky, i.e. they've had the good times and so will be reluctant to respond to a market where the scales have tipped in favour of the customer.
Also, during the days of skills shortage peeps didn't have to worry too much about marketing because it was the customers doing the chasing, now its the other way around. This forum has often provided evidence of the lack of knowledge experienced people have when it comes to marketing their businesses.
People who come on a career change into any industry bring a range of transferable general skills with them, communication skills often being one of them. Marketing is about using good communication skills, as is talking to the customer and creating an acceptable presence in their homes. The attitude of: "you're lucky to have me here because everyone's busy" isn't going to wash any more". Dealing with difficult situations when they arise in people's homes requires tact and being able to think on your feet. Ripping people off means that most won't come back, and these days you need people to come back whenever possible. Being considered fair and trustworthy goes a long way with people, and you don't learn such level-headedness on college courses.
Providing people want it bad enough and have the right aptitude and attitude, they will get where they want to be - Masood, you're a great role model for anyone setting out.
Like you, I have been rather surprised at some of the harsh responses some people have received over inquiries into training courses, after all, they are the ones doing some well placed research by asking questions in this forum, and they are NOT the naive ones who think they will make a quick fortune out of the plumbing/gas industry.
Fact is, there are no easy answers to finding employment in most industries at the moment.
The plumbing and gas industry went through a period of skill shortages for around 20 years, which meant that those that were competent in the industry had some good times. People who experienced the golden era of gas & plumbing over the past 30 years have Mrs Thatcher to thank for putting policies into place that led to the skills shortage. At the end of the 90's steps were take to address the skills shortage and now the pendulum has swung the other way, made worse of course by the current recession.
However, as in the recession of the 70's, there will always be some people who can make it if they give it their all and they have an aptitude for the work they want to do. Attitude and aptitude count for a lot when learning any trade.
Those that have worked in the industry over a long period will no doubt have accrued many skills, but some of the old hands will be tired and demotivated, while some of the younger experience tradesmen will be complacent and picky, i.e. they've had the good times and so will be reluctant to respond to a market where the scales have tipped in favour of the customer.
Also, during the days of skills shortage peeps didn't have to worry too much about marketing because it was the customers doing the chasing, now its the other way around. This forum has often provided evidence of the lack of knowledge experienced people have when it comes to marketing their businesses.
People who come on a career change into any industry bring a range of transferable general skills with them, communication skills often being one of them. Marketing is about using good communication skills, as is talking to the customer and creating an acceptable presence in their homes. The attitude of: "you're lucky to have me here because everyone's busy" isn't going to wash any more". Dealing with difficult situations when they arise in people's homes requires tact and being able to think on your feet. Ripping people off means that most won't come back, and these days you need people to come back whenever possible. Being considered fair and trustworthy goes a long way with people, and you don't learn such level-headedness on college courses.
Providing people want it bad enough and have the right aptitude and attitude, they will get where they want to be - Masood, you're a great role model for anyone setting out.
Hi Petercj
First off, yes I have worked in the industry for a long time (34 years) & have worked in most areas, so you could call me an old hand but not tired nor demotivated, maybe a tad despondent but not enough to stop me wanting to fight to maintain standards in an industry I love.
The transferable skills you talk about, communication ,marketing & people skills are all well & good & may allow someone to run a successful plumbing business bar the one important missing skill you neglected to mention, that of plumbing !!!!!
Most of us thought it worth while learning that one first & if good at it & though it was something that we could sell, we would start a business. What you seem to be suggesting is the other way around, learning on the job at the customers expense, still remaining level-headed while the water pours though their ceiling will be handy or perhaps it may never have happened if they had been properly trained.
Your right about Masood's attitude & aptitude, (& a good few others) but it is also clear that we can't have a industry made up of people who solely enter via this route. If this way into the industry is to be allowed then some control on the numbers & entry level skills needs to be in place for everybody's sake.
First off, yes I have worked in the industry for a long time (34 years) & have worked in most areas, so you could call me an old hand but not tired nor demotivated, maybe a tad despondent but not enough to stop me wanting to fight to maintain standards in an industry I love.
The transferable skills you talk about, communication ,marketing & people skills are all well & good & may allow someone to run a successful plumbing business bar the one important missing skill you neglected to mention, that of plumbing !!!!!
Most of us thought it worth while learning that one first & if good at it & though it was something that we could sell, we would start a business. What you seem to be suggesting is the other way around, learning on the job at the customers expense, still remaining level-headed while the water pours though their ceiling will be handy or perhaps it may never have happened if they had been properly trained.
Your right about Masood's attitude & aptitude, (& a good few others) but it is also clear that we can't have a industry made up of people who solely enter via this route. If this way into the industry is to be allowed then some control on the numbers & entry level skills needs to be in place for everybody's sake.
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petercj
As this thread is about training in plumbing, so learning the necessary skills is an implicit aspect of the topic: my point was that people making career changes often bring generic transferable skills and also a level of maturityto compliment their trade skills, which is not to suggest that they don't need to acquire the necessary plumbing skills.
Training in classroom conditions is about acquiring theory and know-how, and more often than not, there will be little opportunity to put such learning into practice within the college or training centre - which applies to most industrial training done in colleges.
Such circumstances require the trainee to take considerable responsibility for their learning and to recognise that what they learn in college is only one aspect of what they need to do in order to develop their skills. Any trainer worth their salt will be explaining this to their students on day one. The more mature a trainee is, and the more life experience they have, the better the chances of them being able to sustain motivation and apply themselves with some consistency and determination.
I am aware that you have been involved in training, but I am somewhat surprised at the jaundice view you present of trainees sometimes.
Even if some people are naive, they are only trying to help themselves and find work after all said and done. Why not give them the benefit of your knowledge and experience without being so scathing?
The difference between the two types of learner, which you seem to be ignoring Peter, is the 4 day's a week for 4 years that the apprentice does learning from the plumbers on site doing the actual job of plumbing, in the actual work place under there supervision. They have the opportunity through this time to see how what they are learning in a classroom is applied in the work place. Which is precisely the reason why doesn't work the other way. "Training in classroom conditions is about acquiring theory and know-how, and more often than not, there will be little opportunity to put such learning into practice within the college or training centre - which applies to most industrial training done in colleges". Your words I believe ?
Can you guess what sort of training I have been involved in ? As far as giving the benefit of my knowledge & experience away, well I do that on a daily basis to those who will be able to make the best use of it & the reason I do it is simple, I came through a system where people gave me there knowledge & experience without me having to pay them, I am only returning what I owe.
The big question with a fragmented industry consisting of small firms & little money due to undercutting, who is able to take on an apprentice for this system to continue ??
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REDSAW
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kirkgas
if you are time served the do your A1 and V1 (5-6 days total collating work/reports/ being checked doing a dual assessment) then you are a trainer, as plenty will say before i do, it also helps if you are no good at the job and need to get away from real work haha
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Mike Jackson
From my experience of the tutors at the local college you will also take a serious cut in money if you work for a normal college. I think you need to go to a specialist training centre if you want to earn big bucks like Kirk.
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petercj
I think you must have misunderstood my post, because there's no way I would ever suggest that full time college training or anything similar could match up to 4 days on the job and one day in college - being the classic model for apprenticeship training in the past.
But the reality is that such training opportunities are not available to many people, even if they meet the eligibility criteria.
If people are unemployed, or they anticipate redundancy and they are desperate to get a foot on the first rung of the ladder, then fast-track training might be their only option.
When I see the term 'fast track' in an educational context I think of a condensed learning situation that means covering a lot of ground in a relatively short space of time, which is not the same thing as meaning it's a fast track into a job. However, for people who don't have established trade skills a fast-track course might give them the edge over someone who has done no training at all.
These days most employers want experienced people and they don't have much time for training people up, and at the moment it's an employers market anyway, so getting a foot on the ladder for newbies is likely to be tough. What I was saying is that if people bring maturity and other transferable skills to their endeavours then that is likely to increase their chances of success.
Fast-track learning usually means negotiating a steep learning curve, and so may not be suitable for some people, i.e. not everyone learns in the same way, and so FT is likely to suite some people more than others. If people bring established study skills and a good memory to their work, that's bound to help. Aptitude, and a positive but realistic attitude will also stand people in very good stead.
I helped to set up the Employment Training scheme in 1989/90, and did a year as a Training Assessor. The scheme was cribbed from the German model of training and was excellent. Had that scheme been properly supported and funded by the Thatcher Government Britain would be in a much better place today.
Unfortunately, the ideological leanings of a woman brought up in a corner shop led to abandonment of the Man Power Services commission and the associated Government SKILLS training centres, one of the functions of which was to act as a mechanism for coordinating the supply and demand of construction skills.
MPS/SKILLS training centres provided what could be considered fast-track training, but they did it with an emphasis on simulated work situations, rather than being class-room base. When assessing referrals for training as brickie they would look for basic dexterity, and being low on basic literacy skills wouldn't be a bar.
Britain has had 30 years of Government by people who preach responsibility rather than demonstrating any themselves - they've just abdicated all responsibility to the market place and private enterprise, and the current FU is the result.
But to focus on the current topic, I totally agree that 4 days in the workplace and one in college is an ideal model, but the reality is that it's not available to large numbers of people looking for such an opportunity, and it's unlikely to be practicable for people who have a family to support and so need a substantial wage.
With the changes in university funding the scene has been set for people with advanced academic skills to become interested in practical training, and I would think the gas industry will benefit from an influx of such folk.
If I had any say in the matter I would create an agency to do what the old MPSC commission did, and set up Government training centres around the country to provide the best training possible - but my thinking is what people now brand as 'old labour' (even though it was Ted Heath's Government that set up the MPSC)
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Glenwils
Fast track courses are a stepping stone into the industry for people not lucky enough to be able to get an apprenticeship at an early age.
Those that think they are a fully qualified plumber and can go out on their own soon as they finish their fast track course are destined to fail. Those that see it as a good way to learn the basics and see it as a starting point to a career in the plumbing industry will more than likely succeed.
Those that think they are a fully qualified plumber and can go out on their own soon as they finish their fast track course are destined to fail. Those that see it as a good way to learn the basics and see it as a starting point to a career in the plumbing industry will more than likely succeed.
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Guest123
Not in all cases. Many believe the hype of easy earnings and a easy life and are bored with their current career. They see training as a plumber as being the answer.
After the banking crisis, many bank employees who had been doing the same specialised banking work for years, suddenly found themselves without a job and having read the false marketing promises from the training schools, then decided to become plumbers, sparks etc. Many had never even picked up a hammer before.
The course providers should be made to tell the truth and advertise realistic figures of what can be earned in todays times of Tory austerity.
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Masood
You know, it's a funny reversal of what happened in the late 90's - on the back of the dotcom boom and the scare of the millennium bug, thousands of people who had no IT background swallowed the hype from IT training providers who promised to turn people into network engineers, wed designers, programmers, and Windows NT administrators within 4 or six weeks!
The number of CVs I had from these poor hopefuls, lured in by the promise of £75K starting salaries, was upsetting beyond belief. By my reckoning fewer than 10% actually made a career in IT, and those that did, did it by determination and an unwavering commitment to make it, rather than those who believed that a cram course would give them real-world skills...
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Guest123
Agree Masood. Only with hard work and commitment has any business got any chance of making it. Only one on five UK businesses make it past the first 2 years of trading and that's without any government austerity policies in place.
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