FLUX in new system install - how to get rid

[James Rose]

A full system install in a new build (4 weeks ago) and we are still getting turquoise flux in the tap filters etc....
how long does it take to get rid of this stuff? shouldn't the plumber get rid of this before he installs taps / showers etc.....

 

[jase158]

Needs to be flushed out with water. Plumber should of done it, but no regulations on it. Try both taps open on bath for 10-15 minutes. hopefully this will get rid.

 

[Halesowen1]

As above, no reg on it, usually running the taps for a while will do the job, nothing else the plumber could have done, but run taps.

 

[kirkgas]

"The Byelaws state that every water system shall be flushed out before it is used.

This means every new installation, alteration, extension or any maintenance to existing installations is required to be thoroughly flushed to remove debris."

the quote above is taken from the Water Bye-Laws, so it is covered in the Regs, there is no way a properly fitted system still has flux in it after 4 weeks, get the plumber back to check it out, there was a very severe case a right few yrs ago where a plumbing contractor went out of business, granted the job was a biggie (hospital or care home etc) when the plumbers were dipping the pipe ends in the flux for speed/laziness, and the whole lot had to be ripped out and changed b another contractor

 

[SimonJohns]

I had this a few weeks ago and it wasn't due to flux ( I had used mapress).
It was due to an old main run in copper and the extra flow had caused the lining of the walls to break away. Cleared after about an hour of flushing and hasn't comeback since

 

[Halesowen1]

Kirkgas how do you flush out the hot and cold after fitting a new boiler or piping a bathroom??

 

[heliotrope]

James Rose, Would this turquoise looking stuff in the filters be little solid bits?

If so it is most likely to be insulation from the cylinder (if indeed you have one). This very often happens
when fitting an immersion heater without making sure bits dont drop in when cleaning the seating.

If that is the case then it is just a case of clearing the filters till the problem stops.

Worst case is if there are large pieces which can catch in isolating valves or narrow flexi pipes.

 

[kirkgas]

Kirkgas how do you flush out the hot and cold after fitting a new boiler or piping a bathroom??

before any showers or fittings are fitted a temp connection should be made and the water flushed through full bore, TBH on a properly fitted system the flux should be minimal, however i have seen people putting flux on the pipe with a shovel, then half filling the fittingd, no wonder their systems get polluted

 

[Halesowen1]

But you do the same as all of us though, turn on the taps. I have never seen anybody flush out the water pipes. I have only ever done it when installing cold mains, due to pebbles in feeds to new build properties.

 

[Halesowen1]

I have seen the very same fitters Kirkgas, them who cannot be bothered to buy a flux brush, I knew a guy who used his finger to flux most joints.

 

[kirkgas]

But you do the same as all of us though, turn on the taps. I have never seen anybody flush out the water pipes. I have only ever done it when installing cold mains, due to pebbles in feeds to new build properties.

"DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO" springs to mind, but in saying that i use minimal flux in a house, therefore extra flushing not usually required with my work!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kirkgas]

But you do the same as all of us though, turn on the taps. I have never seen anybody flush out the water pipes. I have only ever done it when installing cold mains, due to pebbles in feeds to new build properties.

i usually connect a bit of hep with a valve on the end to the tail coming out of the wall for a shower and flush that through before i connect a shower, but never really found the need to do it for taps

 

[James Rose]

James Rose, Would this turquoise looking stuff in the filters be little solid bits?

If so it is most likely to be insulation from the cylinder (if indeed you have one). This very often happens
when fitting an immersion heater without making sure bits dont drop in when cleaning the seating.

If that is the case then it is just a case of clearing the filters till the problem stops.

Worst case is if there are large pieces which can catch in isolating valves or narrow flexi pipes.

heliotrope - yes these blue bits are solid to look at then they crumble when pressed or squeezed !
They have been ending up in all the tap heads so i have been clearing with toothbrush.
Also flexi hoses on all taps here ! and i suppose it would be wise to un-couple all shower heads and massage jets to clear out and run through.

Plumber back here at 8am tomorrow - fingers crossed !

 

[jase158]

I have seen the very same fitters Kirkgas, them who cannot be bothered to buy a flux brush, I knew a guy who used his finger to flux most joints.

For me its not the brush thats the problem its trying to keep it clean so you don't get dirt in the fitting.

 

[sparky3366]

I used to use the coill of solder dipped in the flux and run round the pipe/fitting...that was years ago mind

 

[AWheating]

what has probably happend is that after the 1st fix installation then the second fix the pipework has layed unused for a while (no water supply)and excessive flux has been left to degrade/oxidize. The pipework should have been flushed after the 1st fix and then flushed after the second fix. Excessive boss white use can also cause major problems with valves anf fixtures.

There have been cases with new builds where pipework had been left with debris inside for very long periods and major problems where encountered after water was finally connected needing complete repipes. im unsure without reading the water regs book but in these cases you need to decontaminate the pipework before commissioning of the system.

 

[Halesowen1]

For me its not the brush thats the problem its trying to keep it clean so you don't get dirt in the fitting.

Must say I have never had that problem, I just leave the brush in the flux pot.

 

[kirkgas]

Must say I have never had that problem, I just leave the brush in the flux pot.

i drilled a hole in the lid of the flux for the brush to go in so the lid can be screwed back on to keep the flux clean, and as long as you keep buying the same flux you just swap lids when the tub is empty

 

[Halesowen1]

I would say thats what we all do, I warm up a bit of copper pipe though, saves getting bits from the drill in the flux.

 

[jase158]

I would say thats what we all do, I warm up a bit of copper pipe though, saves getting bits from the drill in the flux.

except me....

Warm up copper? whats that all about?

 

[Destroyer2813]

to melt a hole in the lid Jase

 

[jase158]

yeah read it again, bit of a stupid moment, lol:iamwithstupid:

 

[samh]

You warm up a bit of copper with your blow torch get the piece of plastic you want a hole in and push it through. Some do it on CWSCs but this isn't advisable as it does weaken the molecular structure of the plastic and cause it (in worst case scenario) to split. Also you have to then file off all the plastic that was pushed through and get it out. Best to just use one of those drill bits (The name has just slipped out my head, it'll come to me later, everyone will know what I mean) that has a guide bit then a circle bit with sharp teeth to cut a perfect hole in it 🙂

 

[jase158]

And what is the best brush to use? Most cheap brushes fall apart.

 

[Halesowen1]

except me....

Warm up copper? whats that all about?

Makes a nice neat round hole and with no drill swarf in the flux. We are on about the same thing here?? putting a hole in the lid of your flux tub.

 

[Guest123]

And what is the best brush to use? Most cheap brushes fall apart.

Laco has one built in. Try a piece off a sponge, that works too.

 

[tamz]

Well i use my finger. Have done for near 40 years and its still there.
Hate using brushes as it slaps too much on and i ain't got the time to play at being Picasso.

 

[jase158]

Laco has one built in. Try a piece off a sponge, that works too.

My last tub of La co didnt have one? but it did come from screw fix.

 

[Halesowen1]

I get Rothengerger brushes from city plumbing, but as long as you dont do what i do( put some more flux to a soldered joint, to make the solder run again) they will last a while, the best ones are the ones with no metal holding the brush hair on as these rot away.

 

[samh]

Well i use my finger. Have done for near 40 years and its still there.
Hate using brushes as it slaps too much on and i ain't got the time to play at being Picasso.

College used to go mad at me for using my finger, didn't do it again after picking up the stuff that cleans the pipe and fitting itself!

 

[Guest123]

My last tub of La co didnt have one? but it did come from screw fix.

The big tubs dont have one but the smaller standard ones should have one. I got mine from Screw Fix too but that was last year.

 

[Halesowen1]

Well i use my finger. Have done for near 40 years and its still there.
Hate using brushes as it slaps too much on and i ain't got the time to play at being Picasso.

You dont do much 8 or 10mm work then?
A mate I know uses his pinky too, must admit I much prefer a nice fine flux brush.

 

[kirkgas]

I would say thats what we all do, I warm up a bit of copper pipe though, saves getting bits from the drill in the flux.

in this day and age you need to do a risk assessment before you do this in case the heat causes toxic fumes, you also need a hot work permit to heat the pipe with a blow lamp

 

[jase158]

I get Rothengerger brushes from city plumbing, but as long as you dont do what i do( put some more flux to a soldered joint, to make the solder run again) they will last a while, the best ones are the ones with no metal holding the brush hair on as these rot away.

so something like this, but without the metal?

 

[AWheating]

as an apprentice i copied the guy i worked with and used my finger to apply powerflow. After a few weeks the skin on my finger/s started to peel off. i now use my solder, only use a brush on 28-42mm.

 

[tamz]

You dont do much 8 or 10mm work then?
A mate I know uses his pinky too, must admit I much prefer a nice fine flux brush.

Just smear it around the pipe. No need to do the fitting. Brushes are just not my thing.
Painting flux on a joint while doing it or to cool it does my nut in. I once sacked a guy for that.

 

[Halesowen1]

so something like this, but without the metal?
View attachment 4460

The ones I use are all plastic so no rotting away.

 

[Halesowen1]

in this day and age you need to do a risk assessment before you do this in case the heat causes toxic fumes, you also need a hot work permit to heat the pipe with a blow lamp

You also need to do a risk assessment when you get your drill out to drill the lid, I hope you are also putting your goggles on too when drilling the lid.
Does soldering using the flux cause toxic fumes too and does it also need a hot work permit??

 

[kirkgas]

You also need to do a risk assessment when you get your drill out to drill the lid, I hope you are also putting your goggles on too when drilling the lid.
Does soldering using the flux cause toxic fumes too and does it also need a hot work permit??

see you are learning the rules,
risk assessment on drilling the lid is: use hand drill as it is safer, goggles AND gloves, a vice to hold the lid (i know risk assessment on the heavy vice)
read safety list for flux and it says suitable to use on copper pipe for soldering, so no risk assessment required as it is fit for purpose, its heating the lid that is risky as we dont know the type of plastic the lid is made of, and again safety first, do all soldering outside and take pipework sections back in and fit with compression fittings (no joke this appeared in an amendment to the EAGA contract when a couples house got burned to the ground when getting their new free heating)

 

[AWheating]

im bloody fed up of hot work permits, i soldered 3 fittings inside a house today. took me a few mins, it took me 20mins to get the hot works signed off. 🙁

 

[kirkgas]

im bloody fed up of hot work permits, i soldered 3 fittings inside a house today. took me a few mins, it took me 20mins to get the hot works signed off. 🙁

and obviously you also included a 1hr wait time/inspection after the last fitting was soldered

 

[tamz]

You also need to do a risk assessment when you get your drill out to drill the lid, I hope you are also putting your goggles on too when drilling the lid.
Does soldering using the flux cause toxic fumes too and does it also need a hot work permit??

If everyone did an honest risk assessment while sitting having a coffee at 7 in the morning we would just go back to bed.

Getting from the house to the van in the snow
Risk....... trips and falls
Severity...Minor to fatal
Control.....Back to bed!

 

[tamz]

and obviously you also included a 1hr wait time/inspection after the last fitting was soldered

2hrs on my insurance!

 

[AWheating]

well sort of 🙂 , i had to fit the svp which took about 40-50mins after i had soldered. I do always walk thought at the end of the day to make sure i have not left any tools lying around.

Its a wonderful excuse to pack up your tools early....... i cant do it tonight as i have to wait an hour after soldering, but the site closes in half an hour!

 

[Halesowen1]

see you are learning the rules,
risk assessment on drilling the lid is: use hand drill as it is safer, goggles AND gloves, a vice to hold the lid (i know risk assessment on the heavy vice)
read safety list for flux and it says suitable to use on copper pipe for soldering, so no risk assessment required as it is fit for purpose, its heating the lid that is risky as we dont know the type of plastic the lid is made of, and again safety first, do all soldering outside and take pipework sections back in and fit with compression fittings (no joke this appeared in an amendment to the EAGA contract when a couples house got burned to the ground when getting their new free heating)

That ammendment was for all loft work, nobody working on once known as Warmfront scheme is allowed to solder in a loft, it must all be push fit or compression, EAGA were once the main contractors.
I know all about these rules as I inspect Warmfront (EAGA) work 2 days a week.

 

[AWheating]

If everyone did an honest risk assessment while sitting having a coffee at 7 in the morning we would just go back to bed.

Getting from the house to the van in the snow
Risk....... trips and falls
Severity...Minor to fatal
Control.....Back to bed!

my old firm had a risk assessment for driving in the winter, which basically said if you felt it was unsafe to drive you could stay at home and you would still get paided........ of course non of the employees got to see that one.

 

[Halesowen1]

A good little tip to help with this, I always have a water spray bottle in my solder tray, give every fitting a spray and a clean once soldered, plus handy with those little fires due to hidden paper under floorbaords etc.

 

[AWheating]

I know all about these rules as I inspect Warmfront (EAGA) work 2 days a week.

i wished you had inspected the eaga install that was done at my mothers house, i spent two days refitting and repairing the damage.

 

[Halesowen1]

Why didnt you fit her system in the first place?

 

[tamz]

Why didnt you fit her system in the first place?

Probably because they are pensioners and entitled to it for free..........even if it means they have 2 rads less than they had because the spare rooms are unoccupied.
What is that one all about?

 

[samh]

Glad I wasn't the only one thinking that Halesowen1

 

[Halesowen1]

Tamz, warmfront scheme only allows a boiler and upto 5 rads. Unless it is a rip out and a new system going back in, then you can fit exactly same amount as originally in the house.
Rads must be main bed room, main living room, hallway and then homeowners choice on other 2.

 

[royston]

My little finger is my flux brush and has been for years. Still fully skinned and hanging in their. Have to make sure its cleaned first though before picking my nose or scratching inside ear lobe !!

 

[samh]

ear lobe? I envy you, on monday I had a bit on my finger and without thinking itched my balls. Dear god that stung!

 

[AWheating]

Why didnt you fit her system in the first place?

why buy flowers when you live next to a grave yard?

 

[Halesowen1]

I was not having a dig AW, but surely you had heard about this EAGA contract? I would not let many of the companies working for WAGA fit me a outside tap let alone a heating system.
There are some good ones out there too but many of these EAGA contractors are a joke.

 

[AWheating]

no offence taken, the way i saw it was atleast i got the boiler and rads and warranty for free and i was unable to work at the time due to illness so thought double bonus. I was quite cheeky with it as there was 4 rad valves dripping so i called them out 4 seperate times, the second time i even had my tools in the living room but i still called the emergency number 🙂

the worst thing they did was pipe the bathroom rad both sides to the flow, i found the inhibitor in the dustbin still full...... the list goes on and on.

 

[Halesowen1]

What was the company called??

 

[tamz]

Tamz, warmfront scheme only allows a boiler and upto 5 rads. Unless it is a rip out and a new system going back in, then you can fit exactly same amount as originally in the house.
Rads must be main bed room, main living room, hallway and then homeowners choice on other 2.

I ask because i know of 4 jobs up this way where the people (pensioners) got their heating (full new systems) through warmfront but were left without heating in the spare bedrooms. I was called in after to refit / reconnect them. The people were told they could only have rads in occupied rooms and if they had the system altered it would invalidate the guarantee. Well with an Ideal they will need the guarantee but whoever comes out to fix it won't be counting rads so that is bollox.
First time i thought maybe the old folks were getting themselves a bit confused but after another i enquired and found this is the case up here.
Stupidity.

 

[tamz]

What was the company called??

Probably Eaga.........now Carillion making just as much of a balls up, probably more, because all the half decent installers have moved on.

 

[bob the plumber]

But you do the same as all of us though, turn on the taps. I have never seen anybody flush out the water pipes. I have only ever done it when installing cold mains, due to pebbles in feeds to new build properties.

if its possible i will always blast the pipes through into a bucket before installing second fix?

 

[Halesowen1]

Eaga are or were the main contractor, it is then fitted by local companies. Just wanted to know the company's name.

 

[Halesowen1]

if its possible i will always blast the pipes through into a bucket before installing second fix?

The way the guy said he flushed out the pipes, I meant we all use the existing supply, I dont know anybody who flushes any other way.

 

[tamz]

Eaga formley Everwarm up this way. Scotland and NE England. 90% direct labour.
Sold out to Carillion who robbed the workers of their share options and are now making an even bigger hash of things.
Everwarm has been reincarnated by a couple of Eaga directors and is back into insulation and Solar.

 

[AWheating]

What was the company called??

they had a lizard on the van but eaga uniforms.

 

[Halesowen1]

The warmfront shceme which was run by EAGA now Carilion is in its last year and is working at about 25% of last year due to no money left in the pot to do any more jobs.
It is being re named from Aprill and will be all about renewables.

 

[AWheating]

that should be fun, give guys who fit poorly installed heating systems some solar panels to fit........ disaster! LOL.

 

[Halesowen1]

they had a lizard on the van but eaga uniforms.

This is IGUANA, they no longer exist as they were the only sub contractors owned by EAGA the main contractors. As they were owned by the big boys they had favourable jobs and inspecting, hence a load of rubbish fitted everywhere, they made all the other companys look bad too as they were all classed as EAGA fitters.
But unfortunately these were a law onto themselves and nobody could tough them, I was not allowed to inspect there work as they were owned by EAGA.
These cowboys were on watchdog and then quickly got rid of all them terrible vans and got rid of most of the fitters. They started back up as Eaga Heat who are still owned by eaga and get all the best jobs.

 

[AWheating]

thats the one, i could not spell it 🙂

 

[tamz]

It is being re named from Aprill and will be all about renewables.

Looks like they have missed the jump on that one as the ex directors at Everwarm and UKFM have already been doing it for 9 months snapping up the contracts.

 

[Halesowen1]

They dont need any contracts, they will be fitting free solar, heat pumps etc, I reckon they will be over run with people wanting it. Just as they were with the Warmfront scheme, that was its own contact, it generated 100s of millions of pounds of work, all free.

 

[Halesowen1]

Warmfront is not a company, it was the name of the contract ran by EAGA, it was Free heating installed and hence did not go looking for contracts. The new scheme will be more renewables and have a new name, think its Greener Homes Scheme. They will not be looking for any solar jobs or contracts, they go and fit it free to all the thousands who will be applying for the free grant.
Plus as the warmfront scheme has been counting down to end for 5 years with the decreasing workload and funds, I would assume they have been doing a bit of homework.

 

[AWheating]

another unfair monopoly.

 

[Halesowen1]

Who are Everwarm?? Aint heard of them.

 

[tamz]

The contracts are mainly council. No one else can afford to put it in. BG has snapped most of this up and are giving it out to the aforementioned.
The FIT if now barely worth the effort but as usual no doubt the gov will hand over more work to some of the worst contractors in the game.

 

[Halesowen1]

Not realy a monopoly, its a funded scheme for free heating and renewables, it should be a good thing.

 

[Halesowen1]

Warmfront dont do councill work as they are a scheme not a company. So nobody could possibly take any work from them.

 

[tamz]

Who are Everwarm?? Aint heard of them.

Look them up.
Private company taken over by....can't remember....taken over by Eaga. The Everwarm director (founder) was contracted to Eaga for X amount of years after selling out and basically run things up here with his Newcastle counterpart. They knew what was coming and jumped out last xmas time and sat on garden leave arranging their new contracts until April when they were free.
They have stolen the march on Carillion but we'll see how things pan out.

 

[Halesowen1]

The contracts are mainly council. No one else can afford to put it in. BG has snapped most of this up and are giving it out to the aforementioned.
The FIT if now barely worth the effort but as usual no doubt the gov will hand over more work to some of the worst contractors in the game.

The Warmfront scheme was set up for private homes not councill, so nobody has took a jump on them with this work you mention, they dont do that and never have.

 

[tamz]

Not realy a monopoly, its a funded scheme for free heating and renewables, it should be a good thing.

If you are running your own thing too, try getting a slice of it. It is so well sown up to make it nigh on impossible to do, but it can be done, at a cost to you.

 

[tamz]

The Warmfront scheme was set up for private homes not councill, so nobody has took a jump on them with this work you mention, they dont do that and never have.

I know they don't but they get the gov grant handouts that we all pay for.

 

[AWheating]

its a monopoly because its paid for with tax payers money, but its only one company that does it so there is no competition. Hence not value for money. Why cant small companies take the tax payers money and install these systems and profit from it? who would eaga be without the tax payer?

 

[Halesowen1]

Looks like they have missed the jump on that one as the ex directors at Everwarm and UKFM have already been doing it for 9 months snapping up the contracts.

This Everwarm were a company who did some EAGA work under the warmfront scheme some time back, they got brought out by EAGA as they brought many of these companys. But the 2 guys you say who have stolen a march on Carrilion, I was talking about EAGA and Warmfront scheme, who only fit heating in Private homes and all the work is funded, no council or contracting work done be these. So would not be interested in this council work.

 

[Halesowen1]

If you are running your own thing too, try getting a slice of it. It is so well sown up to make it nigh on impossible to do, but it can be done, at a cost to you.

Sorry I dont fit FREE boilers and heating, Solar, Heat pumps etc. Thats what I meant by not a monopoly, do you know anybody else who fits this free to private home owners?

 

[Halesowen1]

its a monopoly because its paid for with tax payers money, but its only one company that does it so there is no competition. Hence not value for money. Why cant small companies take the tax payers money and install these systems and profit from it? who would eaga be without the tax payer?

Its all paid for by European funding.

 

[Halesowen1]

I know they don't but they get the gov grant handouts that we all pay for.

But you said they have lost work to these 2 guys you mention, nothing to do with gov grants, plus its euro funded.

 

[Halesowen1]

its a monopoly because its paid for with tax payers money, but its only one company that does it so there is no competition. Hence not value for money. Why cant small companies take the tax payers money and install these systems and profit from it? who would eaga be without the tax payer?

But its not 1 company that install the work, its hundreds up and down the country, and anybody can apply, but obviously you have to be able to do the work and be able to maintain, plus have premises etc due to stock etc. Hence the sole trader does not do it but many many small companies (4-6 employees) do.

 

[AWheating]

Its all paid for by European funding.

thats exaclty what i said tax payers money.

 

[Halesowen1]

German and French tax payers?

 

[AWheating]

what amount of money is available, must be a big grant if its a free install. These systems are very easy to install so self employed should be ideal for them.

 

[AWheating]

German and French tax payers?

i thought there was 30ish countrys in europe? including the uk, infact the uk pays in more than most.

 

[tamz]

Sorry I dont fit FREE boilers and heating, Solar, Heat pumps etc. Thats what I meant by not a monopoly, do you know anybody else who fits this free to private home owners?

I nor anyone else works for free or fit free stuff. Eaga do very well out of this with install costs rivalling BG. The money is paid out by the taxpayer, whether through Europe or not, we the taxpayer are paying for it.
It is supposed to be open to anyone to compete to get these grants for the end user but in reality things are so well sown up by the gov, eaga, ideal partnership it is just about impossible for the ordinary contractor to gain any of this work.
As said, it is a monopoly.
The taxpayer is being well overcharged and the end user given a bad product with substandard work and materials (although the logic (boiler) seems a bit better) Work that could be better done at a lower cost by small local contractors.
It is all wrong but will never change.

 

[Halesowen1]

what amount of money is available, must be a big grant if its a free install. These systems are very easy to install so self employed should be ideal for them.

But the self employed guy wont go and repair on a Sat or Sun night. Nor have premises.

 

[Halesowen1]

I nor anyone else works for free or fit free stuff. Eaga do very well out of this with install costs rivalling BG. The money is paid out by the taxpayer, whether through Europe or not, we the taxpayer are paying for it.
It is supposed to be open to anyone to compete to get these grants for the end user but in reality things are so well sown up by the gov, eaga, ideal partnership it is just about impossible for the ordinary contractor to gain any of this work.
As said, it is a monopoly.
The taxpayer is being well overcharged and the end user given a bad product with substandard work and materials (although the logic (boiler) seems a bit better) Work that could be better done at a lower cost by small local contractors.
It is all wrong but will never change.

Going on the prices some seem to use on here, I doubt a lot would be cheaper. Plus the company I inspect for only fit Worcester boilers under the scheme, so how is that an Ideal monopoly?? Unless of course somebody specifies an Ideal.
Not all companies that contract to Warmfront scheme are bad, infact many companies now are to a good standard, as most have had to get rid of fitting teams due to lower demand. Many of the companies also do Councill and private work too, plus a large portion of them would also be having an inetrnal and external audit and inspection. So they wont be failling any reg's etc and would be to a good standard, whether thats done in 1,2,3,or 12 days the inspector doesnt know and doesnt care as long as its done correctly.

 

[Halesowen1]

i thought there was 30ish countrys in europe? including the uk, infact the uk pays in more than most.

50 at last count. But 27 pay to EU budget, UK actually pays the lowest of all countries gross natiaonal income (GNI).
Plus whatever the UK pays in 1 year we get at least 2/3rds back the following year, we actually do well from the EU, hence MP's not wanted to leave it.
All this according to facts, they are not this years as they are not released every year. We have always done well from Europe ever since Maggie went mad at them.

 

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