Gas leak help

[danja]

Hi all,

I recently fit a new combi and the next day national grid were called out to a gas escape at the job.

My employer went to investigate it and check the national grid report. Turns out the leak was from an existing fitting near where I was working.

My employer has accused of not completing a tightness test at the end of the job despite the fact that I have recorded it on the paper work and logged it on the computers we use to input results and appliances. Everything on the job was completed properly(paper work and existing appliance defects all recorded), I have a perfect safety record, we have several jobs inspected each year and I have had a completely clean record since 2011 when I was still in training and have never had any safety related problems. After this gas leak the company checked 5 more of my jobs and found no problems.

My point is that I have no history of unsafe working but still get accused of not completing our most important safety check. I attended a disciplinary and the company conceded that they believe I did the tightness test but they say I must have somehow disturbed the pipe afterwards causing the old fitting to crack. As such I have been given written warning.

I recorded my tightness test at 17.45 pm on Friday afternoon and the gas leak was not reported to national grid until 14.45 pm Saturday, the following day. This is 21 hours after I worked on the gas. The national grid engineer reported a full drop on his tightness test.

Is it even possible for a leak of at least 20mb over 2 minutes could go undetected for 21 hours? That's 12.6 bar of gas leaking into the room over that period of time. The customers mother is an invalid and lives in a room which is open plan to the boiler position, she has 24 hour care so the place is permanently occupied. How could I leave a leak of that size and it go undetected for 21 hours? Plus the fact that during that time someone else could have disturbed the pipe.

So the question is can they justifiably give me a written warning on the strength of them believing I "must" have disturbed the pipe after my tightness test?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[kris]

I would say ye s as this shouldve and would've been picked up on a tightness test. With That big of a drop it sounds like an unsoldered fitting. An un soldered but fluxed fitting can not show as low pressure but fact remains it was a big drop.

 

[Reg Man]

It's a difficult one, as you can only say it was gas tight at the time you tested it. How long there after are you responsible for the tightness of the installation? As it was on existing pipework not really your problem, unless there was something visually wrong with the old pipe.

 

[kris]

That's a query . When does new become existing lol

Everything depends on where your leak was ie was it close to a fitting u soldered. We would need more info on position and cause of leak.

 

[AlexGas]

Is it even possible for a leak of at least 20mb over 2 minutes could go undetected for 21 hours?

Yes

So the question is can they justifiably give me a written warning on the strength of them believing I "must" have disturbed the pipe after my tightness test?

Yes, you are the last man in.

 

[bright spark]

Lucky nothing bad happened. Then you'd be in another predicament.

 

[Unregistered]

Yes



Yes, you are the last man in.

Thanks for the input.

Yes I was the last man in but I tested the gas and there was no drop so something has happened in the 21 hours between me leaving and National Grid being called.

Also I would disagree that a leak of that size could go undetected for that long in a permanently occupied room but that's just my opinion, I would like to know what other people think about that.

 

[kris]

Unfortunately mate it's your word against there's and it's gonna be an easy case for them to win, like Alex says you were the last man there, they will automatically think you never done a test because the chances of the leak happening the day after you was there is hugely coincidental or plain bad timing,
At the end of the day it all depends where the leak was and was it close to your work as this kind of factors could make or break your case,

 

[kris]

Thanks for the input.

Yes I was the last man in but I tested the gas and there was no drop so something has happened in the 21 hours between me leaving and National Grid being called.

Also I would disagree that a leak of that size could go undetected for that long in a permanently occupied room but that's just my opinion, I would like to know what other people think about that.

Can you tell us where the leak was and how close to the area u were working , just so we can get a better idea , was the. Leak outside , inside , above floor underfloor, ?....????? Cheers mate

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Hi all,

I recently fit a new combi and the next day national grid were called out to a gas escape at the job.

My employer went to investigate it and check the national grid report. Turns out the leak was from an existing fitting near where I was working.

My employer has accused of not completing a tightness test at the end of the job despite the fact that I have recorded it on the paper work and logged it on the computers we use to input results and appliances. Everything on the job was completed properly(paper work and existing appliance defects all recorded), I have a perfect safety record, we have several jobs inspected each year and I have had a completely clean record since 2011 when I was still in training and have never had any safety related problems. After this gas leak the company checked 5 more of my jobs and found no problems.

My point is that I have no history of unsafe working but still get accused of not completing our most important safety check. I attended a disciplinary and the company conceded that they believe I did the tightness test but they say I must have somehow disturbed the pipe afterwards causing the old fitting to crack. As such I have been given written warning.

I recorded my tightness test at 17.45 pm on Friday afternoon and the gas leak was not reported to national grid until 14.45 pm Saturday, the following day. This is 21 hours after I worked on the gas. The national grid engineer reported a full drop on his tightness test.

Is it even possible for a leak of at least 20mb over 2 minutes could go undetected for 21 hours? That's 12.6 bar of gas leaking into the room over that period of time. The customers mother is an invalid and lives in a room which is open plan to the boiler position, she has 24 hour care so the place is permanently occupied. How could I leave a leak of that size and it go undetected for 21 hours? Plus the fact that during that time someone else could have disturbed the pipe.

So the question is can they justifiably give me a written warning on the strength of them believing I "must" have disturbed the pipe after my tightness test?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Did you have a union rep with you?

 

[Reg Man]

May be a better question. What was the leak caused by?

 

[danja]

May be a better question. What was the leak caused by?

That's the problem, we don't know. The existing fitting that leaked seems to have a pin hole in the solder, they had to put it under water and pressurize it tell where it leaked from but the fitting has been there at least 10 years. It wasn't leaking when I did the tightness test

 

[Reg Man]

It would be unfair to hold you responsible then. Water testing the offending it is not very helpful as an investigation technic. Amateurish investigation. Best advice for future, is to test for tightness and record as last thing you do on the works. Could have happened when whipping down and clearing up.

 

[stevetheplumber]

in future do the tightness test on your fga and print out the results staple it to the benchmark

 

[wetdrip]

Where is the pipe positioned i.e. is it exposed to say a wheelchair hitting it?

 

[Atouchofgas]

Not all fga have that facility

 

[stevetheplumber]

Not all fga have that facility

if i was working for a company that had given me a written warning for it i would insist on having one that could

 

[Atouchofgas]

if i was working for a company that had given me a written warning for it i would insist on having one that could

Ah, see where you are coming from now and totally agree, but the date and time can be fiddled with on the machine

 

[kris]

Ah, see where you are coming from now and totally agree, but the date and time can be fiddled with on the machine

But can't be changed on a printout

 

[kris]

I leave printouts with every job I do with the fga, even its a 3min tightness test i use it for couple reasons , mainly for arse covering and proof of results but also because it looks professional, it looks even better when you hook fga to software on laptop and get the proper a4 testo printout,
Also when you return to that job in a year or 2s time you've readings saved on your machine that you can compare with new ones,

 

[helpsy]

Similarly a car could pass an MOT, owner then drives off garage premises onto highway in front of police car, stops at next junction and no brake lights working and gets a ticket. Yet it passed 10 mins previously!

 

[solutions]

I leave printouts with every job I do with the fga, even its a 3min tightness test i use it for couple reasons , mainly for arse covering and proof of results but also because it looks professional, it looks even better when you hook fga to software on laptop and get the proper a4 testo printout,
Also when you return to that job in a year or 2s time you've readings saved on your machine that you can compare with new ones,

But it doesnt record that you had the hose pinched.

 

[mad_angler1]

Feel for you on this as I know where your coming from. I am not gas safe registered but look after a number of GS engineers for my company (Team leader). Since getting the job I have learnt huge amounts of the GS regulations and how it all works. We have had a numbers of engineers put through the ringer for stuff they did not do or miss, I have come to one conclusion with Gas. You fine until something goes wrong, and when It does go wrong regardless of fault your going to get screwed.

Companies seem so scared of Gas Safe they have to blame some one to show it won't happen again.

We recently had a very similar incident. Gas safe wanted blood even though the engineer did nothing wrong.

 

[newcastle phill]

Raises a question in my mind that do
Electronic printout tightness tests carry anymore weight than just being honest and jotting it down...

In other words would we still be having this conversation if it was printed out.

A question I ponder to myself on different occasions as I loath using the kane for TT and prefer the U - but I am mindful of the shortcomings when you may need proof.....

 

[rocketmanbkk]

in future do the tightness test on your fga and print out the results staple it to the benchmark

I like this comment even though I don't deal with gas.

 

[danja]

Guys thanks for all the reply's, not sure why but I have responded to several of you'r posts but my responses are not showing up. I did notice something about posts having to be checked by a moderator before they show up?

 

[Dotty]

All your posts have been passed, there's nothing currently in the moderation queue.

You may not have been signed in in which case they would have been rejected.

 

[Ermintrude]

Sounds un lucky. You didn't do TT when pipework was hot did u?

 

[tamz]

Do it while the fitting is hot and it will show a drop as it cools.

 

[Ermintrude]

You knew what I was thinking old timer!

 

[Reg Man]

It's not until your in this situation that you appreciate the worry it causes. No one likes to be under investigation. The investigation has to be done properly. You are innocent till proven guilty. Question the investigation technic and the credentials of those taking the investigation.

 

[Gray0689]

Why did they call national grid
And not the company you work for?

 

[Ermintrude]

Ooooh nice thought pattern!

 

[newcastle phill]

Why did they call national grid
And not the company you work for?

Probably emergency notice on meter

 

[danja]

It's not until your in this situation that you appreciate the worry it causes. No one likes to be under investigation. The investigation has to be done properly. You are innocent till proven guilty. Question the investigation technic and the credentials of those taking the investigation.

Its the other way round, guilty until proven innocent. Even before the investigation started the company sent a letter with allegations of not following procedure and not completing tightness test. The investigation was a joke, didn't visit the property or speak to the customer, just went by pictures.

As I said they cant prove I did anything wrong, there's no evidence but it just seems that if a gas leak occurs regardless of the circumstance you will be punished. I'm going to appeal it for all the good it will do. I asked them when they gave me the warning what exactly are they warning me to do, or not to do in future since I followed all the procedures but they had no answer.

 

[danja]

Why did they call national grid
And not the company you work for?

I always leave my number but the customer was out, it was his sister who called national grid, she got the number for gas emergency. The customer actually apologized to me for the fact that she didn't call me.

 

[danja]

Sounds un lucky. You didn't do TT when pipework was hot did u?

No mate, I always let it cool first, at least half an hour after any soldering.

 

[danja]

in future do the tightness test on your fga and print out the results staple it to the benchmark

We are not allowed to, fga is for combustion tests only. We do a tightness test and record on our company ipad. It logs the time of the test.

 

[danja]

Where is the pipe positioned i.e. is it exposed to say a wheelchair hitting it?

Nope, about two foot above a worktop in the kitchen. All the pipe work was completed and the boiler was on when I did the tightness test, only thing I did after was fit the flue and the flue hole was already there so no drilling and the condense. Oh and putting the case on the boiler. Maybe one of these things disturbed the pipe but I don't see how.

National grid were not called until 21 hours after I recorded the test, and they recorded a full drop. Seems a long time for a leak of that size to go unnoticed. Plus who knows if the customer damaged the pipe during that time. Dont see why I should get a warning on the assumption that I disturbed it.

 

[bigads28]

Danja, just by the description you've given I can tell who you work for. I was a TU rep for a couple of years with them.

You could argue until you were blue in the face and they wouldn't give a monkeys, you will always be at fault. They want someone to blame for the escape and it will always be the engineer. They say your Ipad readings are used to protect you, are they heck, they protect the company.

A written warning only lasts 12 months, just be sure you always cover your back.

The sniffers for your Anton are available on the tools catalogue, why you don't have one is beyond me. Accidentally order one lol!

 

[REDSAW]

thought the procedure was verbal before written?

 

[Gray0689]

Depends on severity of incident
Can go straight to dismissal for gross misconduct

 

[danja]

Danja, just by the description you've given I can tell who you work for. I was a TU rep for a couple of years with them.

You could argue until you were blue in the face and they wouldn't give a monkeys, you will always be at fault. They want someone to blame for the escape and it will always be the engineer. They say your Ipad readings are used to protect you, are they heck, they protect the company.

A written warning only lasts 12 months, just be sure you always cover your back.

The sniffers for your Anton are available on the tools catalogue, why you don't have one is beyond me. Accidentally order one lol!

yup, that's pretty much the way of it. The national union rep is appealing it, the disciplinary procedure is to improve behavior not to punish people, they can't even tell my what I did wrong, they admit I followed all the procedures so there is no bad behavior to improve. This is reflected in the fact that I got a 6 month written warning, every other gas leak I've known of recently has been a final written warning for 18 months. Think I will have to order the sniffer just for extra peace of mind.

 

[Reg Man]

Even this is a bit harsh. Little evidence poor investigation and no conclusion on what the leak was caused by.

 

[bigads28]

yup, that's pretty much the way of it. The national union rep is appealing it, the disciplinary procedure is to improve behavior not to punish people, they can't even tell my what I did wrong, they admit I followed all the procedures so there is no bad behavior to improve. This is reflected in the fact that I got a 6 month written warning, every other gas leak I've known of recently has been a final written warning for 18 months. Think I will have to order the sniffer just for extra peace of mind.

They need to have a cause and outcome to a reported escape, they will never say they are at fault. Business Integrity would go to court before they say it's us!!

If they say you've followed all procedures then how the heck can you improve or change behaviours???

 

[danja]

They need to have a cause and outcome to a reported escape, they will never say they are at fault. Business Integrity would go to court before they say it's us!!

If they say you've followed all procedures then how the heck can you improve or change behaviours???

Well that's the grounds for appeal, the warning is punitive which is not allowed. I doubt they will go back on the warning though.

 

[Millsy 82]

We are not allowed to, fga is for combustion tests only. We do a tightness test and record on our company ipad. It logs the time of the test.

I would ignore them on that if they are going to be like that. I would use it and then print it out if they argue say that you are A) covering yourself and B) covering the company. How can they then argue with that.

 

[danja]

I would ignore them on that if they are going to be like that. I would use it and then print it out if they argue say that you are A) covering yourself and B) covering the company. How can they then argue with that.

Yes mate, I will do that. They have now accepted that i did the tightness test but have still given me a warning. Can't win.

 

[kay-jay]

Raises a question in my mind that do
Electronic printout tightness tests carry anymore weight than just being honest and jotting it down...

In other words would we still be having this conversation if it was printed out.

A question I ponder to myself on different occasions as I loath using the kane for TT and prefer the U - but I am mindful of the shortcomings when you may need proof.....

On the local ha district the engineers put a sticker on the meter with date and time of test 1 before work begins and test two after the work and the tenant has to sign that they have witnessed 2 tt and the results are the same.

Cant argue with that[emoji3]

 

[danja]

Well my appeal hearing is for Tuesday this week, I will let you all know how it goes.

Thanks for all the replies fellas.

 

[newcastle phill]

Good luck

 

[buckley plumb]

had similar a few wks ago did a gas cert and found major drop - removed boards and found nailed pipe -repaired that and and the 1st piece of pipe and meter union off the meter . I did a tightness test an all ok . got a call 3 wks later off landlord saying customer smels gas and called Transco who capped meter and replaced regulator and flexi due to leak . that engineer slagged me off to the customer . it was tight when I left it -apparently engineer said there was a small pin hole in the flexi stainless pipe . I assume the pipe was knocked when the tenant put stuff back in cupboard and disturbed the flexi - like an mot on a car its only falied at the time it was done

 

[Ermintrude]

Flux will rot out flex over time. 1 day if lots and hot.

 

[deandive]

had similar a few wks ago did a gas cert and found major drop - removed boards and found nailed pipe -repaired that and and the 1st piece of pipe and meter union off the meter . I did a tightness test an all ok . got a call 3 wks later off landlord saying customer smels gas and called Transco who capped meter and replaced regulator and flexi due to leak . that engineer slagged me off to the customer . it was tight when I left it -apparently engineer said there was a small pin hole in the flexi stainless pipe . I assume the pipe was knocked when the tenant put stuff back in cupboard and disturbed the flexi - like an mot on a car its only falied at the time it was done

I had a very similar situation fitted a combi boiler to a HA property to replace an unvented system, when I connected onto the plastic hot feed for the bathroom an exixting joint failed, the resultant leak did not endear me to the tennant. when it came time to tt at the end of the job, the tennnt had piled all her junk in the cupboard and was most unimpressed when I told her I needed access. I finished up and left. two days later I get told by my manager the tennant had called out Wales and west as she could smell gas, she had informed them that the engineer had confirmed a gas leak and she wanted compensation for all her anguish! Cue me having a proper panic, turns out when my manager visited the property there was a brand new annaconda and paperwork confirming the old one had been damaged mechanically, no doubt by her ramming her junk in there.