Has my builder ruined my boiler?

[windle poones]

In answer to your two questions:
1. It was rebuilt by a tech specialist from the company that now owns Potterton. I had an expensive maintenance contract with British gas. During one of their service visits their engineer bodged and damaged the boiler. I refused to accept a new Worcester Boch as a replacement. The rebuild was paid for by British gas after a long running dispute where they finally admitted liability.

2. Each zone is controlled by separately wired "Floureon heating thermostats". They are highly accurate I have tested them with an infra red sensing meter.

 

[Riley]

I’m gobsmacked they rebuilt the boiler but fine and glad you have stats

 

[Millsy 82]

I’m gobsmacked they rebuilt the boiler but fine and glad you have stats

I'm gobsmacked he refused a new boiler.

 

[windle poones]

Hi Millsy,

My reasoning was. The existing boiler was the most reliable I have ever owned. It had given me 25 years’ service at the point when it was bodged. It had always been maintained to a good standard. I have always been fan of the old saying “If it aint broke don’t fix or replace it”.

In another home I had a boiler new in 1964, by Valliant. It was still working fine when I sold the home in 2003. Both boilers were always properly maintained.

I had considered the Worcester Boch, but had heard they were only slightly more efficient and could be troublesome unless I was replacing the entire system, pipes and rads. My own research led me to believe I would be lucky to get seven years from one - WB.

 

[Riley]

I’d imagine efficiency wise you are far worse off but I do agree with your adage re if it ain’t broke. Plus I’d imagine parts will be scarce for the puma in the next few years. Did you not also say you’d had new pipework etc?

 

[windle poones]

No not new pipe work. I had the whole system cleaned by a guy specialising in power flushing, that's all he did. He forward and reverse power flushed to remove the debris that had collected in the radiators and the pipe work. All rads where individually disconnected and power flushed. This was after the whole system had been flushed through. The process took five hours from start to finish.

 

[Riley]

That really would have been the time for a new boiler and then maintained it

 

[windle poones]

In retrospect I probably should have gone for a new boiler, maybe a Valliant. I had checked spares availability for the Puma range before making my decision and was told the heat exchanger for the Puma 100 had been discontinued, but all parts were still available for the 80. However that was 2 years ago.

 

[Riley]

It’s amazing how quick things change but if your boiler is in good working order then I keep everything crossed for you that you don’t require any further repairs any time soon. Anyway keep us updated as to how you resolve the bypass issue

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Don't blame you for keeping it. I'm keeping my Glow Worm Ultimate going for as long as I can.

We've taken condensing boilers out which have been 6/7 years old which were beyond repairing. Admittedly these were probably ones that haven't been well maintained or fitted well.

 

[sammathias]

I'm gobsmacked he refused a new boiler.

They refused a Worcester.....that's a no brainer really.

 

[firemant]

I am surprised "well maintained" and "British Gas" cropped up in the same sentence,TBH.

And, to be pedantic, the filling loop NRV should be on the Cold mains side.

 

[Riley]

Not doubting you but why??? It always made sense to me when there are two taps but in the instance where it’s tap hose nrv it makes sense because you’d never be able to remove the hose correctly

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Not doubting you but why??? It always made sense to me when there are two taps but in the instance where it’s tap hose nrv it makes sense because you’d never be able to remove the hose correctly

It was my understanding that you required two taps by regs anyway?

You can see why you have the NRV on the cold, as it's less of a dead leg.

 

[Riley]

But there’s no dead leg because the hose should be removed, alright maybe mm in it but seriously.

 

[Riley]

It was my understanding that you required two taps by regs anyway?

You can see why you have the NRV on the cold, as it's less of a dead leg.

And we have all seen proper filling loops with one tap on

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

But there’s no dead leg because the hose should be removed

Should be. But how many customers actually remove it though.

Also if you're only fitting a tap on one side and just a NRV on the other I wouldn't be removing the link.

 

[Riley]

No but I’m arguing regs if you say there should be two taps then the hose should also be removed. Sorry I’m not being pedantic I’m genuinely querying. I cannot see what difference it makes what the reasoning is for the nrv on cold

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

No but I’m arguing regs if you say there should be two taps then the hose should also be removed. Sorry I’m not being pedantic I’m genuinely querying. I cannot see what difference it makes what the reasoning is for the nrv on cold

I wasn't disputing the fact that the hose shouldn't be removed, I was just simply stating that hardly anyone actually removes the link.

I thought there was some reg about the NRV on the filling loop, but I can't find it to hand. Years ago, it was as you say NRV on the heating side. Then about 10 years ago I thought they changed it and required the NRV to be on the cold main. Incase someone left the filling loop open on the cold side and the dead leg within the loop.

Even if it isn't a reg about it, isn't it better practice for it to be on the Cold? You remove the dead leg (If one is created by the customer), plus you can drain the boiler easily when recharging the expansion vessel or maintenance 😛.

Two taps - at least if one is passing you have a fail safe on your second tap.

 

[Riley]

Oh I totally agree with two taps don’t get me wrong but to me it’s logical to stop the heat at the return end so there is no inadvertent heating of the cold side. I cannot see where a dead leg occurs if there is no hose though.

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Oh I totally agree with two taps don’t get me wrong but to me it’s logical to stop the heat at the return end so there is no inadvertent heating of the cold side. I cannot see where a dead leg occurs if there is no hose though.

You're right, there isn't one when the hose has been removed. But my point kind of was, no one ever removes the hose.

 

[OffshoreGas]

Sorry to sound blunt but your title is immediately accusatory. If in fact it was a builder or a plumber that worked on the boiler and not a gas safe engineer then I’m afraid the fault lies with you

Why do you need to be gas safe to fit a zone valve?

 

[OffshoreGas]

Thanks Riley, the only problem I now have is, the extension build is new and I have not signed off on the builder's snagging list. So a small final payment is due. I don't know whether I should trust him to put it right or to call in a known good plumber to rectify his work. 😵

Legally the original contractor is entitled to be given reasonable opportunity to put the situation right. You’re well within your rights to insist the work is undertaken by a competent person. Sounds very like you have the experience to decide for yourself if the guy is flanneling you.

 

[Riley]

Why do you need to be gas safe to fit a zone valve?

Didn’t say to fit a zone valve did I. OP alluded to the rebuild of the boiler which I was questionning

 

[Riley]

Legally the original contractor is entitled to be given reasonable opportunity to put the situation right. You’re well within your rights to insist the work is undertaken by a competent person. Sounds very like you have the experience to decide for yourself if the guy is flanneling you.

As you say however you are well within your rights also to refuse access if you feel they have acted outside scope or unlawfully

 

[OffshoreGas]

Didn’t say to fit a zone valve did I. OP alluded to the rebuild of the boiler which I was questionning

Sorry, I didn’t read it as the boiler had been rebuilt some time before the builder had worked on the system.

 

[OffshoreGas]

As you say however you are well within your rights also to refuse access if you feel they have acted outside scope or unlawfully

It’s generally not looked on favourably by the small claims court if you’ve refused to give a contractor fair chance to put right what may be an honest mistake.

Neither the pipework nor electrical work is notifiable under building regulations so not sure how you’d prove the guy wasn’t competent.

 

[Riley]

Again I was referring to whether or not the builder had acted unlawfully in terms of working on the boiler. They don’t get a second chance there

 

[OffshoreGas]

A 30s google search turned up the manual for your boiler, in section 1.6 it clearly stares the diverter valve must be open to fill the boiler. See attached image.

Doesn’t sound like your builders sub contractor has done anything wrong here.

 

[Welder]

Don't blame you for keeping it. I'm keeping my Glow Worm Ultimate going for as long as I can.

We've taken condensing boilers out which have been 6/7 years old which were beyond repairing. Admittedly these were probably ones that haven't been well maintained or fitted well.

My Ideal Mexico is of 1997 vintage 😎

On a sep note, efficiency ratings as specified by all manufacturers are ONLY seen by a VERY small number of UK home owners.
Why?
The efficiencies are calculated at a flow temp of 50 degrees C and a return of 30 degs C. However, most UK home owners would claim the system is faulty at such low flow temps so new (efficient boilers) are commissioned to run at a flow of 70 & (at best) a return of 50. This delivers just a few % of potential and rarely (if ever) pays back the investment.

 

[OffshoreGas]

My Ideal Mexico is of 1997 vintage 😎

On a sep note, efficiency ratings as specified by all manufacturers are ONLY seen by a VERY small number of UK home owners.
Why?
The efficiencies are calculated at a flow temp of 50 degrees C and a return of 30 degs C. However, most UK home owners would claim the system is faulty at such low flow temps so new (efficient boilers) are commissioned to run at a flow of 70 & (at best) a return of 50. This delivers just a few % of potential and rarely (if ever) pays back the investment.

How do you achieve that then?

Increase the resonance time/reduce flow rate through radiators?

Surprising in this day and age of smart TRVs there not measuring flow/return temp.

 

[Welder]

How do you achieve that then?

Increase the resonance time/reduce flow rate through radiators?

Surprising in this day and age of smart TRVs there not measuring flow/return temp.

Achieve what?

 

[OffshoreGas]

Achieve what?

The temperature differential across the radiator.

 

[Welder]

The temperature differential across the radiator.

Flow rate. Slower the flow rate higher the temp drop.

 

[Michael1960]

If I accept what you are saying and I bow to your superior knowledge. I don't need to call the builder back. I just need a competent Gas Safe plumber to investigate and fix the problem? Know any good and qualified trustworthy central heating engineers in the North West London area?

The emphasis being "plumber" or heating engineer !