Welcome to the forum. Although you can post in any forum, the USA forum is here in case of local regs or laws

Install the app
How to install the app on iOS

Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.

Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.

Dec 10, 2020
42
7
8
Highlands
Member Type
Other Plumber
Just been in loft and noticed header tank on my vented system is hot. I understand that this acts as a feed for heating and expansion when heating water gets hot.
Is this normal for tank to get very warm?

Both the feed pipe and vent pipe are hot but no water coming out of vent.

Never noticed before and had no work done recently although I have a suspected 2 port valve issue as hot tap water always very hot despite no hot water is active. Also waiting on getting a system flush as have hydrogen in rads.

Heating after bleeding works well.

Any thoughts or suggestions hugely appreciated

Thanks
 
Thanks for the pointers.
The vent and feed and pump are close together say within 120mm.
So how would I prevent hot water going up the vent? Just by combining the cold feed and vent?

Thanks
120 mm is supposed to be quite adequate. You could consider combining them, mine is as shown but my pump is on the return to the (OF) boiler, don't think this should make any difference though. (Ignore pic on left!!)
 

Attachments

  • IMG_20200708_085158 rev1.jpg
    IMG_20200708_085158 rev1.jpg
    104.8 KB · Views: 54
  • IMG_20201230_220450 Rev.1.jpg
    IMG_20201230_220450 Rev.1.jpg
    401.2 KB · Views: 49
Last edited:
Just saw your post, so unless either a big distance between the two or a partial blockage??, a very small restriction here will cause havoc because the atmospheric pressure is acting on a area hundreds of times bigger (F&E tank) than than a 3/4 ins vent, I've always preffered the combined cold feed and vent because it destroys the U tube imbalance effect.
It looks like the hot water is going up the vent (maybe with pump start/stop) and back down via the cold feed.***..disaster.

This is still an area I'm researching but the point the feed enters the system is like the point of no pressure change on a sealed system. Whether there's a restriction or not on the suction side the pump suction pressure will not change, regardless to whether the pump is running or not. Since the pump suction cannot change the pump discharge must change when the pump energises. This DP must show as a positive increase at the pump discharge.
 
Thanks again.
Yes they are close together.
Trouble is this is in a really stupid location. Almost impossible to get to 😞
Here's a photo.
View attachment 46950

Presume the vent is attached to the pump inlet pipe??.
I would suggest just draining down the system sufficiently to remove and blank the cold feed connection, leave that plastic pipe, then remove it at the header tank and T the cold in to the vent with a compression T, you can always revert if any problems.
Or mybe when you drain just ensure no blockage/restriction where you remove the cold feed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stratf01
This is still an area I'm researching but the point the feed enters the system is like the point of no pressure change on a sealed system. Whether there's a restriction or not on the suction side the pump suction pressure will not change, regardless to whether the pump is running or not. Since the pump suction cannot change the pump discharge must change when the pump energises. This DP must show as a positive increase at the pump discharge.
Probably correct but if there is the slightest difference between the "suction" pressure at the vent and the cold feed connections then a problem, the main reason for having these so close together is to destroy the U tube effect but still allow free venting.
 
Presume the vent is attached to the pump inlet pipe??.
I would suggest just draining down the system sufficiently to remove and blank the cold feed connection, leave that plastic pipe, then remove it at the header tank and T the cold in to the vent with a compression T, you can always revert if any problems.
Or mybe when you drain just ensure no blockage/restriction where you remove the cold feed.
Sounds like a good plan that!
I can't thank you all enough for the advice .
Thank you ☺️
 
The reason for having vent and cold fill a maximum of 150mm apart is so they're both in the neutral zone. From the picture they look further apart. Its possible the system is venting over.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stratf01
Just been in loft and noticed header tank on my vented system is hot. I understand that this acts as a feed for heating and expansion when heating water gets hot.
Is this normal for tank to get very warm?

Both the feed pipe and vent pipe are hot but no water coming out of vent.

Never noticed before and had no work done recently although I have a suspected 2 port valve issue as hot tap water always very hot despite no hot water is active. Also waiting on getting a system flush as have hydrogen in rads.

Heating after bleeding works well.

Any thoughts or suggestions hugely appreciated

Thanks
Your correct in that the feed and expansion tanks act as
1, A way of filling the system ,beit heating or hws
2,A way for the system to breath and or expand
Your description doesn't say if your tank is heating or pottable water
My assumption is that your talking about the heating, although you do mention excessive temperatures in the dhws ,Does the header tank have separate feed and expansion or is that pipework combined ? It sounds like you have a "S" type heating system this is where you have 2 or more 2 port valves and 1 heating pump, traditionally heating systems of this type were normally configured pumped ch and gravity fed hot water, normally heated via a back boiler and fire front situated in the lounge, this means that the pump only comes on for the CH ,the dhws is satisfied via gravity ,in that the boiler fires for dhws based on the temperature being lower than its set point,as we know heated water rises and cooler water falls this continues until the thermostat is within 3 degrees +/- 2 degrees.
Heating water for your hot water cylinder was given to you as a bye product of having the heating on,say during winter , the pump would push open a none return valve and heating water would flow through your cylinder until its set point was satisfied
Later installations and better installations practices allowed for what we call "fully pumped" systems, this is where the pump runs for both heating and hot water ,the pump would be switched on when the 2 or 3 port valve actuated to its end stop ,pushing on a microswitch this would send power to the pump and boiler switch live, providing your roomstats setpoint was low enough this would start the ignition sequence and fire the boiler and the pump would circulate water until the set point was satisfied if the roomstat was satisfied the pump will continue to run until it falls below that set point, if however the overheat stat switches off the boiler the live supply is blocked and the pump stops ,this is where your problems start your system is what we call venting over ,essentially the boiler is staying on for a period without the pump the water gets too hot and overflows into it expansion tank ,the problem you have is
1, Why is your pump not working
2, Why is the boiler staying on
Your engineer needs to assess your heating system and check its sequence of operation to see at what point its failing ,this is why proper engineers wont give advice over the phone, because guessing causes accidents,
If nothing else your now wiser in heating and heating systems
Hope this helps 👍🏼
Ps Hydrogen gas in a heating system ,again is a bye product of germs of an organic matter have died ,decomposed and produced the gas ,venting the radiator or radiators will emit a smell like a wet fart but joking apart can be quite dangerous and your right to have it removed ,flushing the system will of course remove all matter and decomposition but more beneficially will replace old water for new water this exchange of water should actually be done every 3-4years this will again remove and debris and allow for correct cleaning and the installation of inhibitors these chemicals will slow the production of sludge and excessive pump and valve wear and tear extending the lifespan of the system, you could go a step or 2 further by adding in during the drain down a magnetic particulate filtration device, this will catch large and small down to 3 microns products which left to circulate will eventually block radiators and boiler heat exchangers now your being proactive and that's a good thing
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stratf01
All my design guides, college text books, CIBSE heating design etc state a maximum of 150mm. Obviously anything within this distance is acceptable.
If the OP fires the boiler up today whilst he's in the loft he will be able to confirm if it is venting over, if it is then I think we've found our problem.
 
  • Agree
  • Like
Reactions: John.g and Stratf01
It might be advisable to be in the loft and get someone to start the boiler as it may only be venting on pump start up or stop.

What could the cause be, SJB, IYO, if venting, since distances well within limits?
 
Looking at the image John i can't say that is within limits. One would have to get a ruler out and measure centre to centre. If it is within limits then technically pumping over shouldn't occur.
 
The bit I can't see properly is where (if) the vent is actually coming off the pump inlet just below the cold feed T which is quite clear, it might look as if it does going by the 2 Ts very close together, if everything as it should be then hard not to conclude that no restriction somewhere?.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SJB060685
Ah, I apologise. I was looking at the image wrong. I thought the vent was the vertical 22mm on the left. If its as you suggest then should be within limits.
Just so I'm on the same wave length as you John, how are you thinking a restriction is causing potential pump over?
 
I'm thinking of some restriction/build up between the vent and the cold feed because even though very short at ~ 120mm might cause some venting, you wouldn't really know except you removed that whole piece, combining the two as I suggested might be a easier way out.
Only other thing I can think of is very improbable, that the pump is pumping the wrong way.
 
I can see where you're coming from mate but I cant see how a slight restriction would cause the pump to vent over, seeing as the vent is within the neutral point of the systems margin. Of course I could be wrong.
To the OP. Is it hydrogen forming in the system, or hydrogen sulphide? The formation of the two happens for different reasons.
 
I can see where you're coming from mate but I cant see how a slight restriction would cause the pump to vent over, seeing as the vent is within the neutral point of the systems margin. Of course I could be wrong.
To the OP. Is it hydrogen forming in the system, or hydrogen sulphide? The formation of the two happens for different reasons.
All I know is that the "air" coming out of bleeder valve smells of gas and is flammable so just assumed it's Hydrogen forming in system but don't know enough about that side of things I must say.
 
Both hydrogen sulphide and hydrogen are flammable. I believe hydrogen is odorless, whereas hydrogen sulphide smells of rotten eggs. Hydrogen is a by product of rusting and galvanic corrosion and hydrogen sulphide is due to bacterial issues so my understanding is, although chemistry is not my strong point.
 
Thanks again guys fot the assistance!
Ok so I've just been up in the loft and got my daughter to turn the room stat up. There was no sign of any water movement. However when I got her to turn the stat down and turn heating and pump off hot water poured out the vent as you can hopefully see from the video.

Does this mean combining the vent and feed as suggested will resolve this issue?

Thanks again very much
 

Attachments

  • HwVideoEditor_2020_12_31_162531.mp4
    27.1 MB
  • Informative
Reactions: SJB060685

Official Sponsors of Plumbers Talk

Similar plumbing topics

We recommend City Plumbing Supplies, BES, and Plumbing Superstore for all plumbing supplies.