Ideal Classic burner box seal

[Robert Tyrrell]

I went on a breakdown call yesterday and I had to replace the fan on an Ideal Classic FF250, which I did, but whilst fitting I noticed that the seal on the burner box wasn't complete and I checked it for CO with my FGA. It's giving out 29ppm so I've turned it off and informed the customer, who is happy that I've done this.
Luckily the boiler is in a utility room and the CO was, apparently, leaking to outside.

The thing is that I need to replace the seal pretty quick as they have small children and need the heat/water functions at the moment so can anyone tel me:

• What size fibreglass rope I need?
• What's the trick for getting it to remain in place when putting the burner box back?

I ask the above because the last time I had to remove a burner box, to get at the ignition electrode, it took me ages to get the box back in place with the seal intact and correctly positioned.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Ask at your parts supplier, they should do the adhesive that will stick the rope in place, used to come in small bottle with a brush, but like everything these days Proberly been discontinued.

 

[Elgordo]

I found the easiest way is to clean off any residue on top of the heat exchanger and use high temp silicone to fix rope in place , leave it a few hours to set and then position fan box .its time consuming but it worked for me after spending an hour and a half leaning into a cramped kitchen unit with washing machine on and customer smoking at kitchen table on the phone telling her friend ' the gas man is here so have to wait till he's finished ' ! No pressure.....

 

[Robert Tyrrell]

Forgot about the adhesive. They do still sell it as well

 

[gassafe]

The burner box is a real pig on these boilers, plus the thermo at the back is a pig too!

The burner comes out quite easy tho for more space...

Where did you get 29ppm? Maybe ideal left a small space in the burner box seal? The same boiler has that small hole in the inner flue about 6/8mm for no reason lol...

 

[Elgordo]

Those holes are for placing screwdriver in to twist :stuart:flue bayonet fitting on/off.

 

[neily01]

A bit of rope and adhesive good as gold, done loads.

 

[GrahamM]

Is this not nothing more than a rudimentary heat seal between the burner box and heat exchanger. It is not a combustion seal and and small leaks from the side is unimportant.

The main thing to look at would be the foam combustion seal.

 

[Robert Tyrrell]

Is this not nothing more than a rudimentary heat seal between the burner box and heat exchanger. It is not a combustion seal and and small leaks from the side is unimportant.

The main thing to look at would be the foam combustion seal.

Yes you're correct but it was letting CO out so it needs replacing and Ivd now got some rope so I'll sort it now.
Thanks for all the advice guys

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

Is this not nothing more than a rudimentary heat seal between the burner box and heat exchanger. It is not a combustion seal and and small leaks from the side is unimportant.

The main thing to look at would be the foam combustion seal.

i agree

Yes you're correct but it was letting CO out so it needs replacing and Ivd now got some rope so I'll sort it now.
Thanks for all the advice guys

co to where though?are you doing a airtest and picking up co?

 

[AMGasServices]

i agree


co to where though?are you doing a airtest and picking up co?

What I think he means is his room co test.

 

[Robert Tyrrell]

I was using the FGA on the room test setting yes, but I was picking up CO at the back of the burner box where the seal looked as though it was missing. I know that there's a casing over the whole thing but I didn't want to take chances with it as it should be a complete seal.
My customers were very happy that I'd spotted the missing part of the seal, and to have the boiler off until I'd fixed it, which will be in the morning as I'm doing my LPG assessment today.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

have you passed?

 

[Elgordo]

Second that , Hope you did okay!

 

[jtsplumbing]

I was using the FGA on the room test setting yes, but I was picking up CO at the back of the burner box where the seal looked as though it was missing. I know that there's a casing over the whole thing but I didn't want to take chances with it as it should be a complete seal.
My customers were very happy that I'd spotted the missing part of the seal, and to have the boiler off until I'd fixed it, which will be in the morning as I'm doing my LPG assessment today.

But you will pick up Co on these old type boilers, with the front cover off !its around the case seal you need to look at, I know I'm going to get some stick now, but you cant treat these older style boilers in the same way as modern units, you won't find any reference about FGA readings on these boilers, and why people insist on using FGA's on these sort of boilers then shutting them down cos they cant get the right read-out, information you need to check that these type of boilers is contained in the instructions, and you wont find FGA's mentioned. Going to stand back now and wait for every one to slap me down and say I'm wrong.

 

[Robert Tyrrell]

Sorry to say that I haven't passed yet!

I have to go back at a later date because I couldn't complete all the papers in one go.
I've done 3 papers and a practical but still have 3 papers (I think) left to do.
Fully booked at the moment as well so it's going to the difficult to fit it in although they did tell me that I could just 'Pop in' if I call them first - it's 35 miles away so I reckon I will be calling in first 🙂
Any body got any ideas of stuff I could look at regarding the standards etc? It might, just might make it a bit easier for the next half

 

[Robert Tyrrell]

I've just looked on the UKLPG website and they want 9K for the complete set of COP on disk.
That's a bit over the top for what I need 🙂

 

[jtsplumbing]

If you have got your main elements, fires cookers ect. doing the LPG is pretty straight forward to do the conversion, don't waste your money on buying all those COP's, are you looking to do holiday parks ? or just housing ? all you will need to know is in the Viper book (LPG) section this you can buy from them, or get the corgi publication.

 

[Robert Tyrrell]

If you have got your main elements, fires cookers ect. doing the LPG is pretty straight forward to do the conversion, don't waste your money on buying all those COP's, are you looking to do holiday parks ? or just housing ? all you will need to know is in the Viper book (LPG) section this you can buy from them, or get the corgi publication.

Cheers but I've got the viper book (Fuel Changeover Natural Gas to LPG) and although it's very informative, it doesn't cover a lot of the standards and the minutiae that the questions on the exam papers are asking.

I definitely don't want the COP's anyway - just wondered if there was anything else that I could look at to help before I go back for the second half 🙂

 

[jtsplumbing]

All the information you need should be provided by the place your taking the exam, the one I use in Plymouth even give you copies of the ones that you need, usely one day's training and half day exam, its not that difficult, some guys only do the test, I usely do the 1 day refresher but like the rest of the ACS stuff very little changes over the 5 years.

 

[Robert Tyrrell]

Yeah - I suppose it's my fault really, should have done a bit more checking first.
The company is a good one, it's just that they told me it'd be a one day thing so that's what I allowed in my work schedule and now I find that I need another day, which I'm not happy about tbh.
As for the info - yep, they give you all you need - supposedly but there was a guy doing a re-sit who'd been doing it for years and he couldn't find the answers to some of the questions. There wasn't an option for the days training just ½ day reading etc and ½ day exams/practical. How they can justify telling me that it 'can be done' in a day is beyond me. In order to do that you'd need encyclopaedic knowledge of the standards, and the ability to recall any part of them at will.
I only spent around 15 minutes doing the practical as I sailed through but the paperwork side (exams) is a nightmare so if I can, I'd like to read up stuff beforehand.

 

[jtsplumbing]

You will just overload your head with stuff you don't need, the way the training books that we are given cover most of the answers and they are very well designed by the instructor so its a pice of cake to find the answers, seems your not getting the best experience from where your doing the training, maybe look in our area next time wont be half as stressful.

 

[mfgs]

I was using the FGA on the room test setting yes, but I was picking up CO at the back of the burner box where the seal looked as though it was missing. I know that there's a casing over the whole thing but I didn't want to take chances with it as it should be a complete seal.
My customers were very happy that I'd spotted the missing part of the seal, and to have the boiler off until I'd fixed it, which will be in the morning as I'm doing my LPG assessment today.

So you were doing a room CO test on a room sealed boiler, with the case off?

 

[lame plumber]

Yeah - I suppose it's my fault really, should have done a bit more checking first.
The company is a good one, it's just that they told me it'd be a one day thing so that's what I allowed in my work schedule and now I find that I need another day, which I'm not happy about tbh.
As for the info - yep, they give you all you need - supposedly but there was a guy doing a re-sit who'd been doing it for years and he couldn't find the answers to some of the questions. There wasn't an option for the days training just ½ day reading etc and ½ day exams/practical. How they can justify telling me that it 'can be done' in a day is beyond me. In order to do that you'd need encyclopaedic knowledge of the standards, and the ability to recall any part of them at will.
I only spent around 15 minutes doing the practical as I sailed through but the paperwork side (exams) is a nightmare so if I can, I'd like to read up stuff beforehand.

did the conversion 4 or 5 years back, did the day training, waste of tap and sat the exams, just read the books or notes for the answers, they are all there, if I can pass, a monkey can pilot a space shuttle, its that easy 🙂

 

[gassafe]

So you were doing a room CO test on a room sealed boiler, with the case off?

I'm not sure what was done, but with the the case on I would have put the analyser in the flue gas & air intake, if there both okay I would have left it?

 

[jtsplumbing]

I'm not sure what was done, but with the the case on I would have put the analyser in the flue gas & air intake, if there both okay I would have left it?

But that's the point that I am trying to make, these boilers are meant to be checked only on working & burner pressure, flame picture, FGA on these old units is surely irrelevant as no data is given for FGA readings

 

[Aquazone]

But that's the point that I am trying to make, these boilers are meant to be checked only on working & burner pressure, flame picture, FGA on these old units is surely irrelevant as no data is given for FGA readings

Using a FGA on any appliance isn't going to hurt, even old open flue appliances, but as an extra not in place of a proper service. And there is a point on top of a Classic to connect your analyser to.

There are set limits for appliances where no manufacturer data for specifics exist. Normally 0.004 ratio but can be different in certain circumstances.

 

[Robert Tyrrell]

I did use my FGA, as I stated earlier, on the room test setting, with the casing off. This was because there was a piece of the rope seal that was missing and, on further inspection I had noticed that the rest of the seal had crumbled to dust, more or less.
As I don't want to be responsible for the demise of any person, for whatever cause, I decided to check for CO emissions and found that there was a considerable amount of CO being emitted from the area where the seal had deteriorated. I told the customer and, as previously stated, they were happy for me to switch off the gas supply and to get the seal replaced when I could.
The seal was subsequently replaced, the CO level was checked again, and there was no evidence of any CO leak following the replacement of the seal, so the boiler case was put can and I have now arranged with the customer to carry out a 'Proper' service in the next couple of days.

Aquazone - I thought that the level for a gas boiler was 0.0008, at least that's what I was taught anyway 🙂

 

[Gasmk1]

you will be forever trying to look for a fault thats not there at 0.0008.
(CO level less than or equal to 350ppm and Combustion Ratio less than or equal to 0.0040) is deemed safe. but always refer to MI's

https://kane-uk.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/manual/pdf/55/CO_CO2_RATIO_for_Natural_Gas.pdf

i personally think less than 0.0080 is way too high and would try to get better readings.

 

[jtsplumbing]

I did use my FGA, as I stated earlier, on the room test setting, with the casing off. This was because there was a piece of the rope seal that was missing and, on further inspection I had noticed that the rest of the seal had crumbled to dust, more or less.
As I don't want to be responsible for the demise of any person, for whatever cause, I decided to check for CO emissions and found that there was a considerable amount of CO being emitted from the area where the seal had deteriorated. I told the customer and, as previously stated, they were happy for me to switch off the gas supply and to get the seal replaced when I could.
The seal was subsequently replaced, the CO level was checked again, and there was no evidence of any CO leak following the replacement of the seal, so the boiler case was put can and I have now arranged with the customer to carry out a 'Proper' service in the next couple of days.

Aquazone - I thought that the level for a gas boiler was 0.0008, at least that's what I was taught anyway 🙂

You got one 0 to meny for the action level 0.008 for boilers.

 

[Aquazone]

I thought it was 0.0040, but if strip cleaned then 0.008 is allowed. I am due my ACS renewal soon so thats off top my head from 4 years ago.

Tbh I've never had to leave one at such a high reading, I think you can always find the root cause if you strip it down (providing the flues not holed/seals gone

 

[GrahamM]

I thought it was 0.0040, but if strip cleaned then 0.008 is allowed. I am due my ACS renewal soon so thats off top my head from 4 years ago.

Tbh I've never had to leave one at such a high reading, I think you can always find the root cause if you strip it down (providing the flues not holed/seals gone

Have read of TB 126 & BS7967: 2015.
Some changes in last year or so.
As always MI's trumps standards for your action levels.