Leaving At Risk turned on!

[diamondgas]

Potterton 51 back boiler and fire!! Fitted before debris plates were thought of and the ventilation was a joke! 40 years old the owner reckoned!

HOWEVER

Not spilling fumes or leaking gas and no signs of ever doing so! The guy laughed when I asked if it was okay to leave it turned off!! So I At Risked it, got him to sign to say he understood the reasons for the notice and that he wanted it left on; and away I drove!

You know what? I can't blame him either.... Flue was pulling like a Dyson & the old sash windows were a joke at keeping out the winds 🙂

His argument was based on "legislation produced less for safety but more to cover your back" ! I couldn't find a valid argument with that either because I remember when these boilers and their like were everywhere and the only ones I found in a dangerous state were through lack of maintenance not ventilation!! We would and could accept the tiniest of ventilation as "having" ventilation not that long ago and a debris plate, phah!!!

Anyhow about an hour later I'm at Wolseley PartsCenter when in pops this guy winging about B-Gas leaving a boiler on with floor ventilation!! He, boasting, said he ID'd it straight away!!! Why! I asked him? His excuse amazed me even more ... "Gas fire had signs of sooting down to lack of ventilation and you can't fit ventilation there!" My mind boggles as times 🙂

I'm not advocating leaving all appliances turned on when there's an obvious issue with risk but honestly I think this industry of ours has gone Arze covering crazy!!! Or am I wrong? ..... Rant! Rant!!Rant!!! 🙂

I know there'll be a lot of 'what if's' coming up in the next lot of posts but hey! You could AR every appliance you come across 1st visit on "What if's", what if the gas valve passes? AR, what if the flue comes apart? AR, what if a swarm of bee's decide to nest in the flue?, AR ... Last one actually happened to a custard and their living room was dripping with soot, I ID'd it, fumes!!!

What's your thoughts on the At Risk category? How do you feel about leaving them turned on?

 

[mountainman]

It depends who your working for IMHO.
If you are employed by a company then you would need to follow all the rules unless given written instructions to the contrary.
If you are working for yourself then common sense and your professional judgement should prevail.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

It depends who your working for IMHO.
If you are employed by a company then you would need to follow all the rules unless given written instructions to the contrary.
If you are working for yourself then common sense and your professional judgement should prevail.

:iagree:

 

[diamondgas]

It depends who your working for IMHO.
If you are employed by a company then you would need to follow all the rules unless given written instructions to the contrary.
If you are working for yourself then common sense and your professional judgement should prevail.

To some degree I agree, but wouldn't company rules follow the same protocol that a self employed person follows?

 

[mountainman]

Not so sure Diamond, I would require written instructions to cover myself.
Imagine the scenario.
Coroner.
"why did you leave the AR appliance working"?
You
"my boss"
Coroner
"can you prove this"
You
"no"
Coroner
"what size prison uniform do you think will fit you"?

 

[AWheating]

Some companys are very quick to AR and turn off.......... "and heres the cost of a new boiler".

 

[diamondgas]

LOL .... why worry about a coroner? You could have a coroner asking you the same about a perfectly good working boiler that suddenly developed a flue fault, eg flue liner coming away and collapsing! I'd rather face a coroner with a signed piece of paper saying "left on as per customer" than to try and defend a fault that occurred after you were there!! 🙂

Neither were turned off (scenario)

 

[diamondgas]

Some companys are very quick to AR and turn off.......... "and heres the cost of a new boiler".

The guy I met was an AA guy! Big company arze covering to the max!!! But I wonder if it's company policy or the individuals?

 

[AWheating]

i dont think you have much of an individual say/identity when working for big companies really.

 

[Millsy 82]

I do AR alot of boilers but if I follow everything by the book my arse is covered and in turn my company are covered.

The thing that gets me is these flues that are not clipped but jointed correctly and have been in for years they have not come apart in that time and not likely to come apart in the future but its still AR

The fire if it had signs of sooting 1st thing I would have done is give it a really good service check everything. Although saying that I worked in somebodies house and there were big black soot marks either side by the draught diverter a quick chat with the customer ID straight away, Turns out that when the wind blows in a certain direction it caused downdraught in about 12 houses those with log burners got smoked out I fitted an anti downdraught cowl and away it went.

 

[kirkgas]

To some degree I agree, but wouldn't company rules follow the same protocol that a self employed person follows?

no, because some companies have contracts with clients that are stricter than the regs, and as long as its priced accordingly and everyone knows the specific contract agreement then everyone is happy,

 

[diamondgas]

no, because some companies have contracts with clients that are stricter than the regs, and as long as its priced accordingly and everyone knows the specific contract agreement then everyone is happy,

Everyone except the custards 🙂 My worry is that people may meet greater harm because someone is scared to leave a boiler on! They die of hyperthermia say, because someone turns of a boiler fitted too close to an openable window!!

 

[zeebeedee]

Personally I work for a firm and im over cautious, the way I see it is, I'm not the one making the money I am taking the risk and even if it's a tiny risk it's still a risk! I have a saying "Im too pretty for jail, they will love me in there!" :censored:

 

[diamondgas]

I do AR alot of boilers but if I follow everything by the book my arse is covered and in turn my company are covered.

🙂 So millsy82, is covering your arse more important than the customers welfare ... worst case scenario? No need to answer by the way ans I am not wanting to put you on the spot... but you are 🙂

 

[diamondgas]

i dont think you have much of an individual say/identity when working for big companies really.

I worked for big companies 25yrs .. they professed that we were all 'one' but when the s-hit hit the fan you were all of a sudden an individual working beyond their ethic!! I understand the yes sab no sab! mentality 🙂

 

[Millsy 82]

🙂 So millsy82, is covering your arse more important than the customers welfare ... worst case scenario? No need to answer by the way ans I am not wanting to put you on the spot... but you are 🙂

I work on If it is dangerous its ID if there is a chance that it could become dangerous from a fault that is there when I inspect then its AR then any other faults NCS.

And yes covering my arse is more important. If I left an unclipped flue and thought it was going to be ok and just NCS it and it came apart would the customer think of the fact that I could lose my gas safe and job trying to do them a favour? NO they would want compensation or to get gas safe involved. So I dont do people favours as far as i'm concerned if I have to AR or ID something I do, I would always leave temporary heaters for people with young children or elderly so i'm not completely heartless.

 

[diamondgas]

I would always leave temporary heaters for people with young children or elderly so i'm not completely heartless.

Thanks for this Millsy 🙂 ... There are some that will be heartless and refer the onus onto the 'company' rather than take responsibility themselves and leave other forms of heat alas!

I don't think this job is about doing folk favours though .... as long as you cover yourself you can leave an appliance working AR .. I don't think many are comfortable with that! Maybe experience allows that compromise I don't know ? 🙂

 

[tamz]

I agree with you Diamond. It is all about covering rses and creating sales and little really to do with the actual risk factor in many cases. The bigger companies would have no qualms about cutting frail old people off in the middle of winter. What is the bigger risk? As the example mentioned above, an un clipped flue that has stood perfectly stable for 15 years or minus 10 with no heating for a pensioner? That one should be a no brainer but unfortunately in most cases it isn't.
You can see the point of it tho. There are too many who would jump on the phone to claims are us. It is just the times we live in where common sense is frowned upon and seen as prize money for some.
That is what the paperwork is for albeit it is a pita to spend half your day writing the same stuff out. Just play by the rules and use engineering judgement (another seemingly dangerous thing :lol🙂

 

[diamondgas]

Cheers Tamz .....

I'd like to invite anyone to explore this issue coz I think it has more potential for harm than good! I don't see any good in isolating anyone's form of heating because of a change in regulations or when you know it will never cause any REAL danger!!!

 

[tamz]

I think over classification and the desire to turn things off for the slightest reason may actually be having an adverse affect for some which may lead to greater risk. People are beginning to think of it as a sales ploy which in many cases it is and are being scared away from the service contracts for that reason. I've had a few customers who have cancelled their contracts after being cut off (wrongly) and think all gas engineers are out to fleece them and make them fit a new boiler.
Now if they continue to use me or someone else to get their boiler regularly serviced that is fine but i know many will now leave it until it breaks down or something happens, which with a back boiler may be when the flames are rolling out from under it and it is spewing CO.

 

[diamondgas]

Sadly the TOFO mentality is filtrating into our profession I believe! Maybe it's lack of experience with all the fast track training going on? Who knows? Maybe open flued appliances are a scary place for the un-educated? Or maybe it'll take someone to die for regulations to relax a bit? 🙂

 

[Dannypipe]

Better safe than sorry is my motto. If I think something is AR, I'm hoping the customer won't insist on leaving it switched on.

I'm not heavy handed, but stick to the book as I don't want to be responsible (even inadvertantly) for someones death. Yes, sometimes its stupid nitpicking faults that in reality won't do any harm, but there is always that small chance.

To say that a new boiler could suddenly suffer a fault and become dangerous is unrealistic. Modern boilers are too safe when properly installed. Its the old rubbish and the badly fitted that we need to keep our eyes peeled for, and jo public pay for our expertise. They're not to know it's pottentially lethal.

I've had situations where jo public is quite unaware their boiler is leaking gas/spilling CO etc. People don't like it when you switch their boiler off, and neither do I, but as I said before this long response. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Mike Jackson]

The problem with today's litigious society one of your priorities has got to be CYA. If I find something is at risk I will turn it off with the customers permission. There are times when the customer will refuse and I will note on the paperwork and ask them to sign it. If they refuse to sign then I will note on the paperwork. This may upset some people but in my view we are no longer allowed to use common sense, everything has to be in black and white and my priority is to safeguard my livelihood.

As Millsy 82 does, in the winter I carry heaters so I'm not leaving vulnerable people at risk and if it requires a simple repair to rectify an AR situation you may as well do it whilst you're there even if it's not going to earn you any extra, it's worth it for the good will.

 

[diamondgas]

I understand the 'better safe than sorry' attitude. At Risk is not unsafe though! It is not in anyway dangerous! In a lot of cases with older appliances it is a change in regulations that have made them At Risk. They were perfectly okay until the change in paperwork said they're are not!

With the fore mentioned appliance , 1st post, I explained to the guy the potential dangers that could occur and he "took on board", his words, my concerns but insisted on leaving it on and signing my paperwork to say he was taking the responsibility! I do believe he'll be renewing this year but that's his choice end of the day. I could find nothing 'unsafe' about the installation however. What I did find were potentially dangerous issues that had been there 40yrs of which i brought to his attention.

Black and white rules is how i run my business, by-the-way, If I come accross an At Risk situation i'll inform the customer, explain the potential issues and let them make the decision as to whether it is turned off or not! That I believe is how it should be! We need the responsible person's permission otherwise its left on with a label attached!

I too have a fan heater in my van and leave it quite often for folk when i can't get their appliance repaired there and then! I've also left it when I've had to ID ... I can't bring to mind any AR situations its been used on.. 🙂

 

[AWheating]

as mentioned, there is alot of distrust in the general public about Gas Engineers and there motives when turning off/disconnecting. Joe Public watch the tv programes about the dodgy non registered engineers charging £800 to change a thermocoupler and mud sticks.

TV programes, News papers articals about how 99.9% of Gas Safe Engineers do a bloody good job protecting the public from possible dangers do not sell and make money.

I recently disconnected a gas cooker in a council property because flames where leaving the back of the grill burner and scorching the wall, when i tried to explain to the tennant why it was dangerous i got told "you gas engineers are all the same, looking for reasons to rob people of there money" and this was aobut a very visual danger .

sometimes you will never win.


I would carry temp heaters if situations needed it....... you just have to hope you get them back!

 

[Millsy 82]

I understand the 'better safe than sorry' attitude. At Risk is not unsafe though! It is not in anyway dangerous! In a lot of cases with older appliances it is a change in regulations that have made them At Risk. They were perfectly okay until the change in paperwork said they're are not!

With the fore mentioned appliance , 1st post, I explained to the guy the potential dangers that could occur and he "took on board", his words, my concerns but insisted on leaving it on and signing my paperwork to say he was taking the responsibility! I do believe he'll be renewing this year but that's his choice end of the day. I could find nothing 'unsafe' about the installation however. What I did find were potentially dangerous issues that had been there 40yrs of which i brought to his attention.

Black and white rules is how i run my business, by-the-way, If I come accross an At Risk situation i'll inform the customer, explain the potential issues and let them make the decision as to whether it is turned off or not! That I believe is how it should be! We need the responsible person's permission otherwise its left on with a label attached!

I too have a fan heater in my van and leave it quite often for folk when i can't get their appliance repaired there and then! I've also left it when I've had to ID ... I can't bring to mind any AR situations its been used on.. 🙂

That is pretty much what I do. As long as I have that paper trail to say I have picked it up and the customer is aware what they do with that info is up to them. I would rather do without explaining to the customer why its at risk as this takes ages but as said they can then make there own informed choice.

The 1 thing I never ever say is yes it is safe to use and there wont be any problems because its been like that for years.

I tend to say something along the lines,
It is not to current regulations due to whatever (then explain how it could cause a problem) although it is not causing a problem now there could be a chance that in the future it may cause a problem therefore it is classed as AR. I would recommend that the work is carried out to resolve the problem if you do choose to use the appliance you do so at your own risk blah de blah Is it ok to turn it off, No, Ok could you please sign here to say that I have explained the situation then chuck a sticker on and away I go.

 

[TBServices]

I think over classification and the desire to turn things off for the slightest reason may actually be having an adverse affect for some which may lead to greater risk. People are beginning to think of it as a sales ploy which in many cases it is and are being scared away from the service contracts for that reason. I've had a few customers who have cancelled their contracts after being cut off (wrongly) and think all gas engineers are out to fleece them and make them fit a new boiler.
Now if they continue to use me or someone else to get their boiler regularly serviced that is fine but i know many will now leave it until it breaks down or something happens, which with a back boiler may be when the flames are rolling out from under it and it is spewing CO.

Agreed. The last back boiler I capped off had a deteriorated flue and was definitely I.D. I went to service the boiler originally. The lady was crying buckets and her daughter was shouting at her down the phone for getting her boiler serviced.

I felt awful but I had no choice and I felt forced to justify my actions by saying better cold than dead essentially. That woman will probably never have another gas appliance serviced again, at her own risk. Her daughter had the attitude that I was trying to create more work for myself.


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[Mike Jackson]

They can always get a second opinion but they don't get a second life.

 

[diamondgas]

They can always get a second opinion but they don't get a second life.

At Risk isn't dangerous Mike! It's potentially dangerous. Bit like driving without your seatbelt on, sex with a stranger without a condom, or living in an earthquake zone! <-- What a weird 3 I chose then :lol:

 

[Pssst]

"turned off" when applied to AR appliances saimply means turned off at the operating tap/switch. It doesnt mean cut off/isolated. There is only so much you can do and if you have labelled /explained/issued notice signed for then thats plenty.

 

[diamondgas]

"turned off" when applied to AR appliances saimply means turned off at the operating tap/switch. It doesnt mean cut off/isolated. There is only so much you can do and if you have labelled /explained/issued notice signed for then thats plenty.

I use to turn off at the fuse spur pssst! Look I'd say ... turned off here 🙂

I'd never detract from safety ....... but I do believe experience tells you instinctively what is safe or not .. You can't explain or give that to anyone! Legislation quells that uncertainty i guess?

 

[stevetheplumber]

the whole point of legislation like health and safety and a lot of gas/ electrical regs is to put the most responsibility on the lowest paid and to stop any charges getting up the food chain if you put so many rules and regs in place that no one realy has a definate answer to them all the chances are the poor fitter will have broken one of them and can therefore carry the can

 

[Nostrum]

At Risk isn't dangerous Mike! It's potentially dangerous. Bit like driving without your seatbelt on, sex with a stranger without a condom, or living in an earthquake zone! <-- What a weird 3 I chose then :lol:

Would two of your AR's make an ID if done simultaneously?

 

[Millsy 82]

Would two of your AR's make an ID if done simultaneously?

I have actually spoken to gas safe on that 1 and the answer is No

 

[diamondgas]

Would two of your AR's make an ID if done simultaneously?

sambotc ... An ID in my books is an appliance that if left on would be an Immediate Risk to person or property! This appliance was 40yrs old, a really old fella posing some potential danger but nothing imminent! Lot's of what if scenarios after the event could conjure up many possibilities but I don't do fantasizing or scare mongering. I deal with what's in front of me, inform the responsible person of the potential dangers and allow them to make the decision of how next to proceed! I do not buy into 2 AR's make an ID! Spilling fumes, excessive gas leaks or incorrect use of an appliance/fitting that WILL if allowed to continue use cause a danger to life or property, they're Immediately Dangerous!! IMHO 🙂

 

[Nostrum]

Sorry guys I missed the mark, I was refering to the 'driving without your seatbelt on, sex with a stranger without a condom, or living in an earthquake zone'

I'll get my coat..

 

[diamondgas]

Sorry guys I missed the mark, I was refering to the 'driving without your seatbelt on, sex with a stranger without a condom, or living in an earthquake zone'

I'll get my coat..

Way too sharp mate :rofl:

I think driving and sex without would be ID 🙂

 

[Dannypipe]

I've done driving and sex. Madness I know. I was going out with this lunatic nymphomaniac who just wanted to shag at every opportunity. I mean I'm as red blooded as the next bloke but eventually it wore thin. Excuse the pun.

Driving down the A21, she's decided it would be a laugh and the rest is history. It was very, very late at night/early in the morning. Not condoning it. Funny though. She shagged my brother when I dumped her. Nice girl.

 

[Nostrum]

Have you still got her number? My email is .........

 

[AWheating]

bagsey 2nd's!!!!

 

[diamondgas]

I've done driving and sex. Madness I know. I was going out with this lunatic nymphomaniac who just wanted to shag at every opportunity. I mean I'm as red blooded as the next bloke but eventually it wore thin. Excuse the pun.

Driving down the A21, she's decided it would be a laugh and the rest is history. It was very, very late at night/early in the morning. Not condoning it. Funny though. She shagged my brother when I dumped her. Nice girl.

Now thats Imediatly Dangerous! I nearly crashed getting a BJ!!! 😀

 

[kirkgas]

Now thats Imediatly Dangerous! I nearly crashed getting a BJ!!! 😀

sorry but nearly only makes it AR, what did they teach you?????????????????????????????

 

[diamondgas]

sorry but nearly only makes it AR, what did they teach you?????????????????????????????

Wasn't it your good self who said there should only be two categories regarding safety kirkgas? I remember when there were, PDI and ID. that was Potentially Dangerous Instillation and Immediately Dangerous! That was when letterbox openings were every day occurances, gas leaks were the same and nearly every other boiler was open flued. Those days you had to have your wits about you!