Licensing of plumbers

[OffshoreGas]

In US there seems to be a jumbled mess of state laws regarding construction. One common one however seems to be plumbing work must be completed by a licensed contractor. This appears to be similar to GasSafe but cover all aspects of plumbing and heating. Do people think the U.K. would benefit from a similar scheme?

I’ll start with my pragmatic if somewhat cyclical view.

I’m not aware of any justification in terms of health or safety to extend the scope of a scheme like gas safe to cover all aspects of plumbing and heating not just gas.

Also I think GasSafe and Part P were largely motivated by ensuring HMRC received their pound of flesh for reasonably expensive but otherwise difficult to trace domestic work and consumer safety was a side benefit.

I think there always have been and always will be a range of clients in the domestic construction market. Some are a little more comfortable and happily pay for a decent standard of work. Some will choose to undertake work themselves and others will choose a person not competent to compete the task.

I’d be surprised if the percentage of those in these groups have changed dramatically over the last 60 years.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

yes and no but i do believe we should have permits to work on wholesome water /system etc

 

[OffshoreGas]

yes and no but i do believe we should have permits to work on wholesome water /system etc

In a domestic setting or commercially?

I had a good google and reports of legionella etc are pretty thin on the ground.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

In a domestic setting or commercially?

I had a good google and reports of legionella etc are pretty thin on the ground.

both tbh the amount of arse washers and blue water that is connected to drinking water is stupid but it needs to be enforced strongly with high penalties

eg

Severn Trent warning: Don't drink BLUE tap water

'Illegal' valve sees water being siphoned from customers’ toilet cisterns and into their taps

www.coventrytelegraph.net

https://twitter.com/x/status/1175317580657168385

 

[OffshoreGas]

both tbh the amount of arse washers and blue water that is connected to drinking water is stupid but it needs to be enforced strongly with high penalties

eg

Severn Trent warning: Don't drink BLUE tap water

'Illegal' valve sees water being siphoned from customers’ toilet cisterns and into their taps

www.coventrytelegraph.net

Wouldn’t it be easier to force the manufacturers to integrate check valves into more products. That way you protect the public from the cowboys who don’t m ow any better too?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Wouldn’t it be easier to force the manufacturers to integrate check valves into more products. That way you protect the public from the cowboys who don’t m ow any better too?

check valves dont always protect the water supply and they can fail, but im sure we can come up with a more perm way to incorporate check valves into things like fill valves (supprised no ones fitted / made one into a service valve )

 

[Ziggie]

I have used very experienced plumbers for installation work.
One didn't follow 7671 edition 17 nor edition 18 for the electrical work.

If you are GSP then you can hardly not be registered and passed the exam.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I have used very experienced plumbers for installation work.
One didn't follow 7671 edition 17 nor edition 18 for the electrical work.

If you are GSP then you can hardly not be registered and passed the exam.

7671 ? Sorry don’t know that

 

[OffshoreGas]

7671 ? Sorry don’t know that

BS7671 is the requirements for electrical installation normally referred to as the wiring regulations.
[automerge]1569132777[/automerge]

I have used very experienced plumbers for installation work.
One didn't follow 7671 edition 17 nor edition 18 for the electrical work.

If you are GSP then you can hardly not be registered and passed the exam.

Fair comment on electrical work on heating systems it’s generally shockingly bad to the point of criminal.

Not sure the 18th edition course is right for plumbers, I sat it a few months back and 95% of it is irrelevant to plumbing/heating.

 

[Ziggie]

7671 ? Sorry don’t know that

Ok it's British Standard BS 7671:2018 Requirements for Electrical Installations

While it is not statutory it can be quoted in a court of law and deals with most installation, testing, and maintenance of electrical circuits

 

[OffshoreGas]

Ok it's British Standard BS 7671:2018 Requirements for Electrical Installations

While it is not statutory it can be quoted in a court of law and deals with most installation, testing, and maintenance of electrical circuits

Most of which is massively berond the scope of domestic plumbing and heating systems.

 

[Ziggie]

In US there seems to be a jumbled mess of state laws regarding construction. One common one however seems to be plumbing work must be completed by a licensed contractor. This appears to be similar to GasSafe but cover all aspects of plumbing and heating. Do people think the U.K. would benefit from a similar scheme?

I’ll start with my pragmatic if somewhat cyclical view.

I’m not aware of any justification in terms of health or safety to extend the scope of a scheme like gas safe to cover all aspects of plumbing and heating not just gas.

Also I think GasSafe and Part P were largely motivated by ensuring HMRC received their pound of flesh for reasonably expensive but otherwise difficult to trace domestic work and consumer safety was a side benefit.

I think there always have been and always will be a range of clients in the domestic construction market. Some are a little more comfortable and happily pay for a decent standard of work. Some will choose to undertake work themselves and others will choose a person not competent to compete the task.

I’d be surprised if the percentage of those in these groups have changed dramatically over the last 60 years.

In US there seems to be a jumbled mess of state laws regarding construction. One common one however seems to be plumbing work must be completed by a licensed contractor. This appears to be similar to GasSafe but cover all aspects of plumbing and heating. Do people think the U.K. would benefit from a similar scheme?

I’ll start with my pragmatic if somewhat cyclical view.

I’m not aware of any justification in terms of health or safety to extend the scope of a scheme like gas safe to cover all aspects of plumbing and heating not just gas.

Also I think GasSafe and Part P were largely motivated by ensuring HMRC received their pound of flesh for reasonably expensive but otherwise difficult to trace domestic work and consumer safety was a side benefit.

I think there always have been and always will be a range of clients in the domestic construction market. Some are a little more comfortable and happily pay for a decent standard of work. Some will choose to undertake work themselves and others will choose a person not competent to compete the task.

I’d be surprised if the percentage of those in these groups have changed dramatically over the last 60 years.

Around 1.1 million gas jobs are carried out every year by illegal fitters who aren’t properly qualified, putting householders at risk of carbon monoxide poisoning, gas leaks, fires and explosions, a government body has warned.

These guys might need help in realising that you need better information and access to specialised tools to do the job.

The most common cause of electrical fires is the inappropriate use of ovens as heaters. Perhaps we need to get registered before we cook in the kitchen😉
[automerge]1569145288[/automerge]

BS7671 is the requirements for electrical installation normally referred to as the wiring regulations.
[automerge]1569132777[/automerge]


Fair comment on electrical work on heating systems it’s generally shockingly bad to the point of criminal.

Not sure the 18th edition course is right for plumbers, I sat it a few months back and 95% of it is irrelevant to plumbing/heating.

But the other 5%?
Example: do you realise that if you install a new circuit from the distribution board , you need to inform the local authority?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Around 1.1 million gas jobs are carried out every year by illegal fitters who aren’t properly qualified, putting householders at risk of carbon monoxide poisoning, gas leaks, fires and explosions, a government body has warned.

These guys might need help in realising that you need better information and access to specialised tools to do the job.

The most common cause of electrical fires is the inappropriate use of ovens as heaters. Perhaps we need to get registered before we cook in the kitchen😉
[automerge]1569145288[/automerge]

But the other 5%?
Example: do you realise that if you install a new circuit from the distribution board , you need to inform the local authority?

Yes and also any electrical work in a bathroom / special area

 

[OffshoreGas]

Around 1.1 million gas jobs are carried out every year by illegal fitters who aren’t properly qualified, putting householders at risk of carbon monoxide poisoning, gas leaks, fires and explosions, a government body has warned.

These guys might need help in realising that you need better information and access to specialised tools to do the job.

The most common cause of electrical fires is the inappropriate use of ovens as heaters. Perhaps we need to get registered before we cook in the kitchen😉
[automerge]1569145288[/automerge]

But the other 5%?
Example: do you realise that if you install a new circuit from the distribution board , you need to inform the local authority?

Yeah, I know a little about electrical work.

I’d say installing a new circuit is massively outside most plumbers competence/insurance and doubt any carry the required tools for testing.

 

[Ziggie]

Can anyone confirm that the colleges are not going to pass on knowledge to the apprentices as they are not GS and they might use the knowledge before or instead of qualifying😉

 

[Deleted member 32524]

All trades should have a register and licence approach. Cut down on cowboys and I believe people would have a better understanding of an apples for apples price for works as everyone, I think, would be in more or less the same ball park using the correct trades for the scope. Everyone would know that bob was not a tiler, spark and plumber unless they could produce their trading licence to prove they were competent. Maybe even make it mandatory to have all relevant trade ID numbers on paperwork and van.

 

[centralheatking]

The gas regulation set up in the Uk is a case in point.
When I started anybody could do it, then we had Corgi
then Acops then Acts and now GsR. But still customers
will hire unqualified people for various reasons...financial
or ignorance. If the domestic gas industry cannot yet be closed down then the prospects of regulating Plumbing or any MES are remote.

However ...if the merchants were required to see accreditation before selling gear then maybe...but it will not happen TOO much money to be made...all we can do is as Dan has put up is to engage with all whom approach UKPF on any level help assist and if their plan is lala
let them know and offer to adjust it
centralheatking

 

[Welder]

I’m not aware of any justification in terms of health or safety to extend the scope of a scheme like gas safe to cover all aspects of plumbing and heating not just gas.

Believe me there are instance every single day of regs infringements that genuinely endanger lives... Speak to Paul Daley (among others) on Twitter and be prepared to be truly shocked.

I believe that ANYONE working on water supplies should be Water Regs licensed with random drop in assessments of ALL work. Yes, that may sound daft and OTT, but IMHO it's simply too important not to be especially as water as resource becomes more precious.

 

[OffshoreGas]

Believe me there are instance every single day of regs infringements that genuinely endanger lives... Speak to Paul Daley (among others) on Twitter and be prepared to be truly shocked.

I believe that ANYONE working on water supplies should be Water Regs licensed with random drop in assessments of ALL work. Yes, that may sound daft and OTT, but IMHO it's simply too important not to be especially as water as resource becomes more precious.

Paul Daley’s twitter feed is dedicated to back flow/contamination. I’ve had to scroll back nearly 3 months to find any mention of anyone becoming ill. Results on google are fairly sparse. Lots of rhetoric but it doesn’t seem like the next global pandemic that’s going to wipe us all out.

 

[rpm]

All trades should have a register and licence approach. Cut down on cowboys and I believe people would have a better understanding of an apples for apples price for works as everyone, I think, would be in more or less the same ball park using the correct trades for the scope. Everyone would know that bob was not a tiler, spark and plumber unless they could produce their trading licence to prove they were competent. Maybe even make it mandatory to have all relevant trade ID numbers on paperwork and van.

I`m gonna disagree about everyone would be more or less in the same ballpark price wise, don`t think it will happen as there will always be somebody willing to do it cheaper, ie newbies starting out and wanting the work.

 

[OffshoreGas]

All trades should have a register and licence approach. Cut down on cowboys and I believe people would have a better understanding of an apples for apples price for works as everyone, I think, would be in more or less the same ball park using the correct trades for the scope. Everyone would know that bob was not a tiler, spark and plumber unless they could produce their trading licence to prove they were competent. Maybe even make it mandatory to have all relevant trade ID numbers on paperwork and van.

I’ve worked in highly unionised environments and they are a nightmare.

I’ve even once nearly caused a strike in one. I reported the light in the room I was working in had failed. Then spent 2 days working by torch light, finally I lost my rag and went and stole a lamp from another room. A day and a half later an electrician turned up and was seriously angry I had the audacity to do what was an electricians job.

Even the simplest of jobs become a chew, you’d need about 6 different “licensed” trades people to fit a bathroom. It’s hard enough getting a plaster to turn up in the same month you want one.
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I`m gonna disagree about everyone would be more or less in the same ballpark price wise, don`t think it will happen as there will always be somebody willing to do it cheaper, ie newbies starting out and wanting the work.

Many industries and most big companies have quite well set out pay scales based on experience/competence/responsibility. It can in theory be done, it only comes unstuck with little one man bands.

With the notable exception of gas the vast majority of construction quality regulation seems to hold householder and not the contractor responsible. You’d probably have a lot fewer cowboys chucking up extensions with little or no regard for building regulations if they were liable and not the home owner.

 

[Deleted member 32524]

I`m gonna disagree about everyone would be more or less in the same ballpark price wise, don`t think it will happen as there will always be somebody willing to do it cheaper, ie newbies starting out and wanting the work.

I agree and disagree with you. If everyone was installing to the same standards and outlay on correct materials and overheads to operate then..... public would also be much more aware of who is suitable to do what jobs with every trade having a recognised register. They may not know the name of it off hand but, do know there is one and they would be advised to check credentials. Big companies don't like unions. Too much power in the peoples hands. We don't have any kind of representation of a union with GS, do we? Businesses only have to choose to listen to any union, if you don't want to listen you are not obliged to anyway. Most small businesses, like us, are fair in our dealings and try to look after people. Including customers, any trades we need to complete works, sparks etc.

 

[OffshoreGas]

I agree and disagree with you. If everyone was installing to the same standards and outlay on correct materials and overheads to operate then... public would also be much more aware of who is suitable to do what jobs with every trade having a recognised register. They may not know the name of it off hand but, do know there is one and they would be advised to check credentials. Big companies don't like unions. Too much power in the peoples hands. We don't have any kind of representation of a union with GS, do we? Businesses only have to choose to listen to any union, if you don't want to listen you are not obliged to anyway. Most small businesses, like us, are fair in our dealings and try to look after people. Including customers, any trades we need to complete works, sparks etc.

You could argue if everyone gets paid the same what motivates anyone to strive to be better than average?

How would you account for operating costs? The poor guys having to work in central London spend 4 hours of every day getting between jobs, the guy in an quiet suburb may only spend 30 mins.

 

[Ziggie]

You reminded me..... I worked as a summer student in factory and was carrying out a test of a new machine.

The machine had the fuse removed to stop employees playing with it and I got very little warning about doing the test runs.

I phoned for the electrician to fit the fuses and he did it.

Some tests later,I went to the electricians office and asked the person to put the fuse in.
The reply was "I'm an electrician's mate and cannot put the fuse in"

A few days later I phoned the electrician and he said " I'm a bit busy at the moment,so could I put the fuses in as you know where they are"

Great experience.