Looking for Large Domestic Heating System Designer / Specifier

[Camperdown]

I have recently moved into a large domestic property in North East Scotland. It is a listed building over 100 years old with traditional single glazed sash windows, etc., so it is never going to be energy efficient, but it desperately needs a new heating system and I want to make it as cost effective to run as possible - especially since this is going to be our house for the long term.

The house currently has a 70kW natural gas boiler which is over 35 years old and which gets through a frightening amount of gas. We are going to end up with a lot of bed rooms, a home office, living rooms and a granny flat, so I have different heat requirements in different areas at different times of the day. I want to get a natural gas fired condensing boiler system (one large or two connected boilers) and, since the whole heating pipework, etc. needs to be replaced as well, I want to get a heating management system installed as well, so I can control different rooms to be at different temperatures at different times of the day. I am happy to have a fully functional interface to set the temperature and times of each room, however, my wife / in laws will want a simple warmer / colder adjustment and not to have to dig into the detail.

I have spoken to a number of different installers, each with different ideas about the best configuration of system to fit, and I have spoken to a couple of heating management suppliers who claim their systems are easy to install, but who don't install their own systems. None of the installers I have spoken to so far have ever worked with heating management systems.

On top of all of the above, there are options relating to Micro-CHP, Solar Water Heating, etc. which might come into this too.

Is there anyone who covers North East Scotland and can design / specify / install a complete system and who will ensure that it all works together properly / efficiently?

I don't want to end up with a collection of bits, none of which work together very well.

Thanks

 

[Gray0689]

My best advice is to get in touch with on of our senior members TAMZ if he can't do it I'm sure he could point you on right direction

 

[SafeGasInstall]

hi , and welcome to the forum ! Tamz will be here shortly

 

[stevetheplumber]

doesnt 70kw bring this into the realms of commercial gas ?

 

[Camperdown]

Yes, but a number of plumbers have suggested I would be better with two 40kW boilers because that brings me into the domestic realm reducing costs and increasing options for servicing, but it makes the management system more complicated to integrate to optimise the two boilers to work in harmony. Hence the reason I need to find a system designer who can knit all the components together and be sure they will work reliably and efficiently.

 

[Gray0689]

To me you need to be going in to large buffer tank couple of good condensing boilers multiple zoning large modulating pump acv cylinder possible solar to buffer tank
And an intelligent system to link all together

 

[Camperdown]

That sounds exactly like the type of setup I am thinking of, but where can I go to get that for a reasonable price in North East Scotland? Searching the internet hasn't brought up anyone and I don't know anyone locally that has a similar type of system.

 

[mark_mc]

in my opinion best type of boiler would be a acv heatmaster they are very efficent boiler and you get all the hot water you need. if you dont want to go into the expense wiring all the zoning you could install intelligent radiator valves like the i pegler thermostatic rad valves which you can set temperture and on and off times throughout the day.

if the valves dont take your fancy just have a boiler house and have different circuits for differnt areas of the house, living, bedrooms, granny flat etc. more pipework but simple

the acv heatmaster are a great boiler we use them all the time in schools and b and bs

 

[mark_mc]

if you sent me the details of the house i could take a look and come up with more detailed plans and options.and if you can get someone im sure you will get someone on this forum.
i would def be up for the task.

 

[Dannypipe]

Tamz will be your man.

 

[Gray0689]

Where in north east Scotland are you

 

[Camperdown]

That would be great. Where are you based? We don't have any plans of the house at the moment - we are getting some prepared. Essentially we have four floors with four rooms and a bathroom on each floor. We have an existing boiler house at the back of the house, so we have lots of space for controls / plumbing / etc. In terms of intelligent controls, I am intending to get the whole house wired up for computer networking, so ideally I would like a networked central controller which allows each room's temperature to be separately controlled at different times of the day. I believe this can be done with electronic TRV's - although I am not convinced that having a thermostat on the radiator provides very accurate temperature measurement of the room - but to really work efficiently, the intelligent control system also has to control the boilers to adjust the heat output to the heat demand being requested by the radiators to avoid the boilers cycling just to sense the heat demand of the system.

 

[Camperdown]

Aberdeen

 

[tamz]

A bit too far from me and it will be a big job which would be hard to work around my other stuff.
This type of system is really crossing into commercial stuff although it can be done quite easily by a decent heating guy who has experience of bms stuff. A bit easier said than done. Gray's idea of a large buffer tank is the way to go if you are thinking different heat sources, probably with 2 smaller boilers on a header (not just because it keeps it in domestic but so if anything happens to one, you still have the other). 2 boilers can be easily controlled by any bms system eg a tec200.
If you want someone who would design and fit the full system maybe Hutcheons in Aberdeen would be a shout. They do mechanical and electrical design and install.
Whoever you choose, systems like this are not cheap to install.

 

[Gray0689]

Your biggest problem with a house like this is heat loss you can have the best heating system but if the house is not thermally efficient the heating can't be also

 

[Camperdown]

Thanks for the guidance. I will give Hutcheon's a call. I appreciate that the system is not cheap to install, but I am trying to balance the fact that we intend for this property to be our house for the long term, so by spending enough just now, we can control our fuel bills in the longer term.

 

[Camperdown]

i appreciate that heat loss is always going to be an issue, but I have already insulated the loft, we are getting the Ventrolla draught exclusion system fitted to the sash windows to minimise draughts and we will be doing everything else we can to reduce heat loss within the limits of what we are allowed to do with a listed building. Accepting that it will never be perfect, I want to add the intelligent controls to the system to allow me to reduce individual room temperatures during times when I know they will not be in use (e.g. Bedrooms can be cooler during weekdays when children are at school, living rooms can be cooler at night when people will be asleep, etc.)

 

[Gray0689]

You could use a manifold system like underfloor heating all rooms would have room stats digital that can be controlled independently so each room/rad can be heated to different temps
These systems can be very good can be connected all low voltage sometimes wireless ( but can be more temperamental with fabric of building )
Some now can be linked with I pads text messages ect lol it all depends on budget to be honest

 

[mark_mc]

thats just what i was thinking about gray. upnonor do a manifold that has separte controls for each room so you could have a manifold on each floor and a acuator on for each room.
i wouldnt do it with wireless would hard wire everything.
that would be cheaper than getting a big firm involved and it quite simple to install.
have one big pumped circuit from the boiler and then let the manifolds do the tech bit heating rads in different room when and where you want it and each room can operate at different tempertures.
you could have manfolds for everything and have no joints under the floors/

 

[Gray0689]

Yes that's my thinking to mark

 

[mark_mc]

simple and would work a1
a house that size no joints would be a great job
so on each floor 2 manifold plumbing and heating each floor with have centre for services

 

[Gray0689]

Yes and possible quicker installation aswell

 

[Camperdown]

I don't know if under floor heating would work for us since we have original floor boards, etc. but I have been told that you can use the underfloor heating manifolds with standard radiators. What would you think of plumbing it that way?
I have to re-wire the house anyway, so I have no problem hard wiring everything, and I agree that would probably give a more reliable solution

 

[mark_mc]

thats what we meant, using the manifolds to do radiators.
and each radiator could be controlled separately with its own wall stat and controller

 

[Gray0689]

No the manifolds we are talking about would be to feed the radiators not underfloor heating
Just think of it like underfloor heating everything runs off manifolds so each rooms radiators can be controlled like underfloor heating so every room becomes its own circuit controlled independently from room stats ie every room can be set to different temperatures
And also this way there will be no joints on pipe work to radiators

 

[mark_mc]

Uponor RA Manifold Expands The Use For Radiators

thats the system i would use or similar

 

[Gray0689]

Uponor RA Manifold Expands The Use For Radiators

thats the system i would use or similar

Agree mate

 

[ecowarm]

I'm 6'3" and over 17 st but not in scotland 😉

 

[Kev the gas]

Uponor RA Manifold Expands The Use For Radiators

thats the system i would use or similar

Interesting idea, a few questions tho:-

How would the boiler be controlled?

Can these actuators control the boiler as well as simply opening or closing? Would the boiler be left to just circulate hot water around the house looking for an open actuator during a set period of time?

It sounds like a great idea and would keep the Part L brigade happy, however I cant see it being that efficient.

My concern would be what happens when the actuators fail and Uponor are no longer in business? Are these type of actuators generic?

Sorry to sound negative, but I recently had an underfloor system ( from Pulsar direct :bomb🙂 that failed and I was unable to source any spares, the system had to be disconnected and a fanned heater installed for a conservatory.

Although possibly involving more work initially, a traditional zone valve system may be more serviceable in the long term.

If anyone knows how it could be properly installed please let me know, I love to learn.

Kev.

 

[SimonG]

Interesting idea, a few questions tho:-

How would the boiler be controlled?

Can these actuators control the boiler as well as simply opening or closing? Would the boiler be left to just circulate hot water around the house looking for an open actuator during a set period of time?

It sounds like a great idea and would keep the Part L brigade happy, however I cant see it being that efficient.

My concern would be what happens when the actuators fail and Uponor are no longer in business? Are these type of actuators generic?

Sorry to sound negative, but I recently had an underfloor system ( from Pulsar direct :bomb🙂 that failed and I was unable to source any spares, the system had to be disconnected and a fanned heater installed for a conservatory.

Although possibly involving more work initially, a traditional zone valve system may be more serviceable in the long term.

If anyone knows how it could be properly installed please let me know, I love to learn.

Kev.

Uponor are in business but it took me four months to get a new controller off of them. They had an issue with a batch of relays (that was the bull given to me), I said fine send another two as there are three on the job all bought at the same time. Oh no can't do that the other two will be fine. One of the other ones went down 10 days ago, still waiting. They sized the circulating pump incorrectly. Basically wouldn't touch uponor with the old preverbial.

Although do agree with the manifold principle for the heating system.

 

[Gray0689]

Well sorry to hear you had bad experience with uponor used a couple of times been great but never been to a big company where someone has never had a problem

 

[mark_mc]

i sure that uponor controls are all interlinked back to the boiler and for that size of house i would install a magna grundfos pump with a auto adapt option so it will pump only what the heating system requires no need for bypass etc.
as we all know if one radiator needs heat the boiler may fire, but how else will it heat???
the cilent whats a system that he can heat different rooms at different times and at different tempertures an uponor have the answer and i have used uponor a load of times on domestic and commerical and have to say there service and expertise as been second to none.

another great bit of kit is a boiler sequencer this takes care of have two boiler doing the same job and will save you money on fuel
http://www.warmworld.co.uk/026.html

 

[mark_mc]

did you get any more advice on your dilemma>>

 

[keltoyboy]

We have a company here in ireland which may be the kind of thing you are looking for.....have known someone that used them and apparently are very helpful.... systemlinkhome

 

[fuzzy]

hello and welcome

i dont think its a complicated job. i would fit 2 modern boilers and upgrade all pipework into zones. you can have an input into which zones you want and design a control system to suit

 

[fuzzy]

i appreciate that heat loss is always going to be an issue, but I have already insulated the loft, we are getting the Ventrolla draught exclusion system fitted to the sash windows to minimise draughts and we will be doing everything else we can to reduce heat loss within the limits of what we are allowed to do with a listed building. Accepting that it will never be perfect, I want to add the intelligent controls to the system to allow me to reduce individual room temperatures during times when I know they will not be in use (e.g. Bedrooms can be cooler during weekdays when children are at school, living rooms can be cooler at night when people will be asleep, etc.)

programmable room stats controlling zones would be a good option, simply controling a 2 port motorised valve. prog room stats are cheap and easy, just decide your temp settngs, no on and off as such just different temps at different times

 

[fuzzy]

could use 1 boiler and a direct fired hot water cylinder

 

[mark_mc]

still think the manifold system is the best and well most cost efficent option. as you say it is never going to be prefect as it is a listed building so why spend silly money on a lot of management controls to tell you that you are losing heat.
at least with manifolds you will be able to control each room and then you can zone the house into areas of usage.

 

[fuzzy]

could have a short shunt circuit

 

[Camperdown]

Mark-mc, thank you for your advice. I have been away from the PC for New Year, but really appreciate all the feedback everyone has given. Someone suggested contacting Hutcheon Services in Aberdeen, so my intention is to speak to them when they are back at work and see what they recommend. I'll come back to you all once I've got their suggestions and you can comment on what they suggest. Thanks to all.

 

[mark_mc]

your very welcome for the advice, please do come back with there suggestions. a big company like that will charge you an arm an a leg but all advice is free.

 

[afenteman]

UFH would be the cheapest and best way to heat an area like this, you wouldn't need to dig the floor up but either use a floating floor system or install battens with insulation and pipework into aluminium spreader plates then 18mm board over and the floor covering of your choice, this should easily reach a lovely living temperature.