Low Loss Header Opinons

[bwel]

Hi,

I am looking at installing a Low Loss Header. I have two Boilers:
- Vaillant ecoTec 630 (30kw)
- Vaillant Ecomax 622E (22kw)

Many headers are specified by their Kw rating and also the dimensions including inlet / outlets.

I have 35mm tube from my combined boiler Feed and Returns.

I have therefore been considering one of the 70Kw rated LLH's.

However looking at the makes, I have seen them made of Mild Steel, Copper, Brass, Stainless Steel. Mild Steel are most common, but I'm a bit concerned about Magnetite. I do already have two Adey Magnaflow 28mm Pro filters piped in parallel from 35mm core tube. These certainly capture sludge particles, but why create more magnetite by introducing Steel in to a heating system ? Assuming I'm correct on that theory ?

I have been looking at the the Vaillant (Steel), Clum Stores (Steel or Stainless Steel), VA Heating (Copper) versions.

Prices range drastically, so I am also considering this as well (as ever).

Any thoughts / recommendations ?

Many thanks Bob

 

[ShaunCorbs]

can i ask why when the boilers are already installed and working?

 

[Simon F]

are the radiators not steel??

 

[bwel]

can i ask why when the boilers are already installed and working?

The boilers are installed, but since I updated the one boiler to the ecoTec from the 15 year old ecoMax, I found that they now operate with different cycle times I.e. Not synchronised run Coles and then I end up with just one running and pumping the 17 Rads and 14 circuit UFH and the boiler pum does not have the flow to get enough flow in the upstairs rads. The LLH will be fitted along with a dedicated circulating pump for the upstairs heating circuits. The LLH is to decouple the primary heating circuit from my heating load. THEORY.

 

[bwel]

are the radiators not steel??

Yes, I guess so.... I hand thoughts about that :uhoh2:

When would you go for Copper or Brass over Mild Steel ?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

The boilers are installed, but since I updated the one boiler to the ecoTec from the 15 year old ecoMax, I found that they now operate with different cycle times I.e. Not synchronised run Coles and then I end up with just one running and pumping the 17 Rads and 14 circuit UFH and the boiler pum does not have the flow to get enough flow in the upstairs rads. The LLH will be fitted along with a dedicated circulating pump for the upstairs heating circuits. The LLH is to decouple the primary heating circuit from my heating load. THEORY.

are both boilers connected together now?/ have you got a pic?

 

[bwel]

are both boilers connected together now?/ have you got a pic?

They are connected together in parallel I.e both 22m Feeds join and distribute in 35mm tube before splitting off in to: Water Heating, UFH, Rad Manifolds. I'll add a picture later.

Thx

 

[chris watkins]

are both boilers connected together now?/ have you got a pic?

Shaun see Bob's main thread "Not all Radiators getting hot !!"

Bob
Please do yourself a big favour get someone in to advise & design the changes to your system that are required to allow it to work correctly even if you just pay them for just that.

This is NOT a diy project that can be solved with snippets of info provided by members of this forum.

 

[bwel]

Shaun see Bob's main thread "Not all Radiators getting hot !!"

Bob
Please do yourself a big favour get someone in to advise & design the changes to your system that are required to allow it to work correctly even if you just pay them for just that.

This is NOT a diy project that can be solved with snippets of info provided by members of this forum.

Thanks Chris, I have been discussing the situation with Vaillant and have given them the full systems overview. It was them whom identified the need for the LLH and circulation pump when I changed over one of the boilers. The fitting of the LLH and circulation pump has been on the cards for the last six months and I have my installer lined up for this.

I wanted to get the Rads cleaned out in advance, which has been completed now, but all this has shown the problems with flow have got worse and I guess the low flow was probably why some of the Rads ended up blocking up.

I'll have a look arround for someone to come and view the system to see if they concur with the Vaillant Techs although I did find them extremely helpful.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thanks Chris, I have been discussing the situation with Vaillant and have given them the full systems overview. It was them whom identified the need for the LLH and circulation pump when I changed over one of the boilers. The fitting of the LLH and circulation pump has been on the cards for the last six months and I have my installer lined up for this.

I wanted to get the Rads cleaned out in advance, which has been completed now, but all this has shown the problems with flow have got worse and I guess the low flow was probably why some of the Rads ended up blocking up.

I'll have a look arround for someone to come and view the system to see if they concur with the Vaillant Techs although I did find them extremely helpful.

Did you fit the new boiler your self ?

 

[bwel]

Did you fit the new boiler your self ?

No, my installer fitted it (Corgi). The only work I do is flushing the rads, feed circuits and cleaning the Magnacleans. I'm not contemplating any of the more complex copper works.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

No, my installer fitted it (Corgi). The only work I do is flushing the rads, feed circuits and cleaning the Magnacleans. I'm not contemplating any of the more complex copper works.

Good answer have you posted in the I need a gas fitter section ?

 

[bwel]

Good answer have you posted in the I need a gas fitter section ?

I do have a fitter organised whom fitted the boiler. He'll be doing the LLH and pump. But I may look for someone for a second opinion on the design.

 

[chris watkins]

Thanks Chris, I have been discussing the situation with Vaillant and have given them the full systems overview. It was them whom identified the need for the LLH and circulation pump when I changed over one of the boilers. The fitting of the LLH and circulation pump has been on the cards for the last six months and I have my installer lined up for this.

I'll have a look arround for someone to come and view the system to see if they concur with the Vaillant Techs although I did find them extremely helpful.

"I need to find someone who's best at systems design, although saying that, I have been using the Vaillant tech team, whom adviser on the system and specified one of the boiler replacements."

The quote above is from his other thread it is strange that Bob never thought to mention the LLH & circulation pump in that one.
Don't know what his game is, if I am being charitable it is just that he does want to pay any one.

But I for one am out of here as it could be getting dangerous.:waving:

 

[bwel]

"I need to find someone who's best at systems design, although saying that, I have been using the Vaillant tech team, whom adviser on the system and specified one of the boiler replacements."

The quote above is from his other thread it is strange that Bob never thought to mention the LLH & circulation pump in that one.
Don't know what his game is, if I am being charitable it is just that he does want to pay any one.

But I for one am out of here as it could be getting dangerous.

I'm not sure what you mean Chris, I've paid quite a few people to look at my system (£2,5k commissioning when I originally moved in). I have had advise from Vaillant and also my boiler fitter, but am always keen to get a another opinion on which type of LLH. Vaillant recommend theirs ofcourse but see other people on here have recommended other makes or construction eg Copper fabricated or with dirt drain and air separators etc.

 

[Sparkgap]

Low loss headers are used to hydraulically separate the boilers from the system, saves hassle with varying flow rates through boilers as valves shut down.
For your boiler ratings something like the Spirocross AX125 would be suitable (assuming 80/60C) which also gives air/dirt separation. For just a low loss header Vaillant do the WH40.
Looking at an MHS brochure they did the Type A which was basically 550mm of 50mm tube with 32mm tappings. Easy to make something like that yourself.
I think the recommended velocity through the header is about 0.25m/s so for your boilers at about 0.6 l/s the best size for the vertical bit would be 67mm.

 

[bwel]

They are connected together in parallel I.e both 22m Feeds join and distribute in 35mm tube before splitting off in to: Water Heating, UFH, Rad Manifolds. I'll add a picture later.

Thx

Here is a photo of the current install.



- I would need to move the Magnetic filters over to the Right and have the LLH fitted between the left wall corner and the Adey Filters. Unfortunately the Return is currently located above the Hot Feed, so I would need to juggle the routing in to the LLH :38:

- The new circulation pump to draw Hot Feed from the LLH would need to go in flow by the CH Zone Valve on the right hand side of the Rear wall in the photo.

 

[bwel]

Low loss headers are used to hydraulically separate the boilers from the system, saves hassle with varying flow rates through boilers as valves shut down.
For your boiler ratings something like the Spirocross AX125 would be suitable (assuming 80/60C) which also gives air/dirt separation. For just a low loss header Vaillant do the WH40.
Looking at an MHS brochure they did the Type A which was basically 550mm of 50mm tube with 32mm tappings. Easy to make something like that yourself.
I think the recommended velocity through the header is about 0.25m/s so for your boilers at about 0.6 l/s the best size for the vertical bit would be 67mm.

Many thanks Sparkgap.

I've looked at the Spirocross, but am also looking at the Elterm SHE70-OC 32/80 GW 5/4.
It also has the Air Vent, Silt Drain and Insulated Jacket.

The link above goes to the manufactures product site. The UK agent is very helpfull on further info.

 

[PriestyUK]

I have fitted Vaillant low loss headers a number of times and I find they are great. Be sure to install a strainer on the secondary return where it enters the low loss header with valves either side to assist with cleaning, this way your low loss header will not block up over time.

I also like how easy they are to hang and the insulation block that is provided works great 😀

 

[tolly]

I presume that they are elbows not tee's on the return pipework underneath that lagging where the magnacleans are, and that the lagging is the only thing bridging the return pipework where the magnacleans are?

 

[bwel]

I presume that they are elbows not tee's on the return pipework underneath that lagging where the magnacleans are, and that the lagging is the only thing bridging the return pipework where the magnacleans are?

Hi,

Yes, it does look a little odd, but yes they are elbows.

This was the original design, but It ended up being implemented below the pipework rather than above. And of course it was 35mm tube going down to 28mm to each Magnaclean XP.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

why not just get a 35-42mm mag filter?

 

[tolly]

why not just get a 35-42mm mag filter?

cost I assume, I think boiler mag do one for £600 though with 1 1/2" tappings.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

cost I assume, I think boiler mag do one for £600 though with 1 1/2" tappings.

bet you hes nearly spent £400 on them two, much better with one of these

http://www.adey.com/downloads/literature/MagnaCleanDualXP.pdf

 

[bwel]

bet you hes nearly spent £400 on them two, much better with one of these

http://www.adey.com/downloads/literature/MagnaCleanDualXP.pdf

£280 (2 x £140) at the time. Unfortunately the MagnaCleanDualXP had not been released at the time so after consultation with Adey, we came up with the design used.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

the problem with that set up water is lazy and will take the path of least resistance, so will really only use one filter

 

[Worcester]

This looks like someone has been trying to cut costs all along... (or ignoring the original advice given)

Any heating engineer worth their salt would have recommended the LLH when the boiler replacement was done.

It should also have been configured as reverse return / Tichlemann --- plumbers, fitters vs Heating Engineers 🙂

From memory the Vaillant have cascade controls built in to them and just need activating and configuring by a Vaillant approved installer (it's what we do on cascaded vaiilant heat pumps / bi-valent systems)

 

[bwel]

This looks like someone has been trying to cut costs all along... (or ignoring the original advice given)

Any heating engineer worth their salt would have recommended the LLH when the boiler replacement was done.

It should also have been configured as reverse return / Tichlemann --- plumbers, fitters vs Heating Engineers 🙂

From memory the Vaillant have cascade controls built in to them and just need activating and configuring by a Vaillant approved installer (it's what we do on cascaded vaiilant heat pumps / bi-valent systems)

I think I recall that the Vaillant tech support advised that the 15 year old ecoMax does not have the Bus Control to enable it to be more intelligently controlled as a pair with the newer models such as the ecoTec.

When the system operated with the original matching pair of boilers with schnronised run cycles, they produced a high flow rate that serviced the large heat load. I had a Vaillant certified eng do the install and in consultation with the Vaillant pre sales support for the swap out to the current equivalent model that they advised.

 

[missplumb]

why not just put a filter on each boiler? it would do the same job and look alot neater.

 

[bwel]

why not just put a filter on each boiler? it would do the same job and look alot neater.

There's not enough room under each boiler to have fitted them under each boiler. Also the boilers are in thei own room so asthetics is not a major concern. That being said, the filers are in the way a bit now as I need to fit the Low Loss Header to the left of those filters and also put the new circulation pump in on the output of the LLH so it will all be a bit of a squeeze. I'll post a photo of it once it's all fitted.