mixer tap hell!

[vanjanflo]

hi i have recently had a new bathroom installed with mixer taps on the sink and the bath has a shower mixer too - previously was 2 taps on sink and 2 on the bath - a week later all hell let loose with the header tank in the loft overflowing at high speed (HOT WATER was shooting up into the cold header tank) and the tank was fillling faster than it could empty.

plumber came back and fitted one way valves to both the hot and cold pipes on the bath and the sink - the problem then moved to a groundfloor en-suite bathroom's thermostatic shower mixer and possibly the sink mixer so he just isolated the water supply to the shower and the sink until he can come back to fit one way valves.

i have an awful feeling the problem will then move onto the kitchen mixer tap as the ground floor bathroom i believe was piped off from the kitchen, question is will my entire house need these one way valves fitting?? or is the only way to know by trying each tap and seeing what happens?

another problem is the shower mixer in the new bathroom - the cold pressure overpowers the hot and therefore you can only get a cold shower if it goes to not enough cold it bounces off shower mode and back to bath fill mode - plumber suggests i try closing the isolating valve a little on the cold pipe to "5 past" i have tried this but it makes little difference and makes the water come through really noisy!

i read a post whereby a plumber suggested taking out the spring of the shower lever as a last resort to fitting a pressure reducing valve - because this other guy's shower wouldn't stay on shower mode he had to shower holding up the lever!!-i believe my mixer had a leaflet with them that explained this was anti-scald feature. and it needs a certain amount of cold or it slams back to bath fill -anyway where would this spring be ?? might this anti scald feature mean the spring is inside the tap mechanism??

any help advice much appreciated!!

 

[WHPES]

Never use that plumber again! He sounds like a right cowboy to me. Get someone reputable to come and sort it out. From what you describe there appears to be somthing very seriously wrong with the design of your plumbing systems and simply adding check valves all over the place is not the correct thing to do.

You should never mess with a thermostatic valve as you describe.

Your hot and cold supply pressures are not balanced and the non-return valve will be stuck.

From what you say about your shower it would appear that it has been plumbed in incorrectly. The hot and cold feeds are incorrect. The hot should come from a separate tapping from your cylinder and the cold should come from a separate outlet in your header tank for the cylinder. THat way both woule be banlaced.

Get a proper plumber in!

 

[vanjanflo]

the bath tap is one of those 4 hole bath shower mixers not a seperate shower - so does the same apply to the way its plumbed in?

 

[WHPES]

Yes, provided you are on a gravity hot water (fed from a cistern in the loft) the cold supply for it must also be fed from the same cistern. That applies to any shower. The cold must NOT be fed from the rising main.

 

[vanjanflo]

a couple of things; firstly should i keep the isolation valves turned off for the en-suite bathroom until this is sorted?
secondly should i turn back the partly turned isolation valve -which was turned to "5 past" in a bid to slow down the cold supply?

further more is it totally wrong that all my taps require one way valves to be fitted?
very worried that i have already paid this plumber for my bathroom refit!

 

[WHPES]

I really can't say without seeing the system but you should be OK with any non-mixed fittings (such as individual hot or cold taps).

If the plumber has connected the cold on the shower mixer to the rising main when the hot is from a gravity feed this is completely wrong. It is pretty basic stuff for a plumber to know how to connect a shower mixer which makes me think your guy hasn't a clue.

One way valves are to prevent accidental contamination such as a mix-in-spout tap (such as a swan neck kitchen mixer) or an outside tap to prevent water being sucked from the hosepipe. The thermostatic shower valve should have them built in but this is a safety measure.

Isolation valves are not for reducing flow. All that will happen is you will get whininig.

It is possible that the mixer taps which you have fitted are not suitable for unbalanced supplies. They may also be only suitable for high pressure applications.

Get a reputable plumber to come and sort it out.

 

[vanjanflo]

thanks for the advice now i feel sickened having paid this guy already!
curiosly though the tap on the bath is a swan neck but it has a big thermostatic mixer underneath the bath

 

[REDSAW]

I really can't say without seeing the system but you should be OK with any non-mixed fittings (such as individual hot or cold taps).

If the plumber has connected the cold on the shower mixer to the rising main when the hot is from a gravity feed this is completely wrong. It is pretty basic stuff for a plumber to know how to connect a shower mixer which makes me think your guy hasn't a clue.

You should not require one way valves for anything other than a mix-in-spout tap (such as a swan neck kitchen mixer) or an outside tap to prevent water being sucked from the hosepipe. The thermostatic shower valve should have them built in but this is a safety measure.

Isolation valves are not for reducing flow. All that will happen is you will get whininig.

It is possible that the mixer taps which you have fitted are not suitable for unbalanced supplies. They may also be only suitable for high pressure applications.

Get a reputable plumber to come and sort it out.

as it says on the tin.😉

 

[WHPES]

Can you stop the cheque or is it too late? Firstly I would get a reputable plumber to assess it and then I would get onto Trading Standards.

 

[vanjanflo]

too late he has cashed my cheque already
if this shower mixer has been connected to the rising main which i am sure it has - how much bother will it be to connect it to the CWH tank in the loft?
will it involve ripping up my newly tiled floor etc???

ps. i used to have an electric shower on the opposite side of the wall - he capped this off i take it he would of been better taking the cold pipes down to the bath from there?

pps. how do i know if a plumber is reputable in the first place?

 

[WHPES]

It will depend on how easy it is to get a pipe from the loft and under the bath.

No, the electric shower would have been fed from the rising main as well.

You only feed a mixer shower cold feed from the rising main if your hot comes from an unvented cylinder or a combi boiler, and in both those cases you would also fit a pressure reducing valve to ensure both supplies are balanced.

A reputable plumber will most likely be well established, rely on recommends for his business, be local (beware of plumbers out of area, large franchises and plumbers with flashy ads).

When you mention hot water in the header tank is it likely that the cold water from the mixer has been feeding up the hot supply to it and pushing the hot water out of the cylinder into the header tank?

 

[vanjanflo]

how would i know if my cylinder is unvented? i definately dont have a combi but not sure about the other

 

[WHPES]

If your cylinder is unvented it is exactly that - no DHW header tank in the loft - fed directly from the mains, and your hot water would come out at a similar high pressure to your cold.

 

[vanjanflo]

when you mention hot water in the header tank is it likely that the cold water from the mixer has been feeding up the hot supply to it and pushing the hot water out of the cylinder into the header tank?[/QUOTE]


i would say definatley as the night the overflow went into overdrive the whole of the hot water shot up to the loft and the HW cylinder was clap cold - my conservatory roof on the other hand was jet washed and steaming!! (overflow goes onto this roof)

 

[WHPES]

You need to get the plumbing systems corrected.

 

[vanjanflo]

thanks for you quick responses last night i called a few local plumbers today and they all say the same as you - thought i'd just let you know i tried calling the plumber who did this and he wont answer my calls i text him instead that the shower should never of been connected to the rising main- and it looks like i will have to get someone in to put it right and seek costs back ... to which he phoned me blaming my goods and said he is not prepared to carry out anymore work at my house- i tried to say its the installation thats at fault but he just cut me off!
havent wasted anytime getting onto trading standards and have posted the letter off today too - many thanks guys!!

 

[WHPES]

It's people like that who give plumbers a bad name.

 

[vanjanflo]

i am annoyed with myself for paying him in full the minute he was finished - it would not of harmed to see how we got on with the bathroom for a week or so.
trading standards told me what to put in the letter he's to either put it right or pay for someone else to do it -under the breach of contract of goods and services act 198.. from what he was shouting down the phone - it seems he thinks that as he didnt supply the goods he can just blame the goods and hes saying its my system and my taps that are at fault - do you think this could "wash" with the small claims court if it comes to that?

 

[WHPES]

No, it is his responsibility to ensure that components used are fit for purpose regardless of where they came from. The be all and end all is that he did not install the system in line with standard industry practice.

The response you got from him is typical of a cowboy tradesman. Someone with a reputation to protect would have been round in double quick time to sort it out and not engaged in an argument.

Incidentally, when it is plumbed in properly, the cold feed for the shower should come out of the header tank at a slightly lower point than the hot feed. This way the hot will run out before the cold so no risk of scalding as would be the case if the other way round. This is something which untrained plumbers always seem to miss.

 

[vanjanflo]

Incidentally, when it is plumbed in properly, the cold feed for the shower should come out of the header tank at a slightly lower point than the hot feed. This way the hot will run out before the cold so no risk of scalding as would be the case if the other way round. This is something which untrained plumbers always seem to miss.

excellent advice thanks again!

possible result /update on the situation; the bathroom re-fitter /"plumber" may well of got my letter today (with all the point trading standards told me to put in) by recorded post,. since i got a phone call at 6pm from a proper registered plumber -who my "plumber" has contacted to offer to put everything right at his expense. i'm thinking it has to of been the letter thats put the wind up him

 

[WHPES]

Check out this new guy to make sure of his credentials and not just a mate of the first guy with as little know how.

Another thing which is often missed is if your light fitting falls into any of the safety "zones" in the bathroom. It must be replaced with a suitable IP rated fitting (plenty of info on the net if you search for it).

 

[NOT SO DIY]

I have an old bathroom suite in my house, moved in a few months ago, bathroom has a Swan tap system. two knobs and a valve for a shower. The shower valve has been capped so not used ever. The problem we have is that the hot water valve flows for a bit then stops. Don’t get this problem at the sink tap. Our boiler is upstairs and is next to the bathroom so not expecting any pressure issues. My question is, can I just swap out the valve in the tap? do these tend to fail i.e. perished seals etc?

Please help. 🙂