No switched live to boiler?

[CheshireH]

This is a possibility of course, but I am trying to understand the logic...Why would there be no more feed to the hot water switch if the boiler connection was 'dodgy'? Why did the 3 AMP fuse not blow (get destroyed)? Could a short circuit of some kind create a scenario in which this could happen?

 

[Basher]

This is a possibility of course, but I am trying to understand the logic...Why would there be no more feed to the hot water switch if the boiler connection was 'dodgy'? Why did the 3 AMP fuse not blow (get destroyed)? Could a short circuit of some kind create a scenario in which this could happen?

Sorry I wasn't suggesting there was anything wrong with the boiler connections. I was thinking more of the mains supply to the spur, and wonder if anything had been disturbed during removal of the original programmer, unless I have misunderstood the extent of your upgrade.

 

[Murdoch]

Just remember it may be live and the issue is with the neutral

 

[John.g]

Nothing is actually tripping. The fuse in the spur is also intact. Just a ll the devices connected to the spur stop working. Last night, I fully disconnected the boiler, other devices were fine again. Then I put everything in the boiler back to the state it was in before (6,7 connector on x4 back in, removed switched live from 1 in x2), and connecter it all into the wiring centre in the same places as yesterday. Now the boiler is running again, in the old (non-switched) manner. I just cannot explain at all why other devices lose mains power, too, without anything actually tripping...

What do you mean by the non-switched manner?, is the boiler now stopping/starting from the programmer/mid position valve in all modes or have you a permanent live from somewhere and the boiler is permanently on just starting/stopping on its boiler stat?.

 

[SJB060685]

How were you testing for a feed? With a multimeter? Sure you've not lost a neutral somewhere?

 

[CheshireH]

What do you mean by the non-switched manner?, is the boiler now stopping/starting from the programmer/mid position valve in all modes or have you a permanent live from somewhere and the boiler is permanently on just starting/stopping on its boiler stat?.

Permanent live - as I had before. The idea was to introduce a switched live, of course, plus some other upgrades (wireless controllers etc. - which all work fine).
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How were you testing for a feed? With a multimeter? Sure you've not lost a neutral somewhere?

So far I have not tested with a multimeter - I do not really like opening the wiring centre when the power is on. So it could of course be a neutral connection. If I 'lost' one neutral (say the boiler neutral, which was the latest change when I swapped from 3 core to 4 core cable, was 'dodgy'), could that cause other devices attached to the spur to stop functioning (even though they worked fine before)?

 

[John.g]

Can you connect say a 100W test lamp or bulb across the switched live in the wiring centre and switch between the three different modes and see what happens.

 

[CheshireH]

Alternatively (even though I cannot see how this could have happened), if the newly attached neutral wire somehow touched any live wire, all neutral would be live in the neutrals block, which I assume would stop anything from working? Is that correct? Should this not trip the RCD or consumer unit fuse?
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Can you connect say a 100W test lamp or bulb across the switched live in the wiring centre and switch between the three different modes and see what happens.

Yes, I can do that once I am convinced that it is now working OK again without the switched live - as mentioned I reconnected everything this morning so I may have eliminated a 'dodgy' connection. Boiler has been running fine all morning in permanent live mode.

 

[SJB060685]

This really needs to be tested with a multimeter and by someone experienced. If you lost a neutral or have a dodgy connection at the boiler then the boiler won't engage, likewise if there was a dodgy connection in the wiring centre it will have the same affect on all system components. As Murdoch said above the live/lives could well be carrying full voltage but without a neutral there is no loop created and no function of components.
The only real way to test this is with a multimeter, checking for 230 volts between live and neutral and live and earth, not with a terminal screwdriver I suspect you've used?

 

[CheshireH]

This really needs to be tested with a multimeter and by someone experienced. If you lost a neutral or have a dodgy connection at the boiler then the boiler won't engage, likewise if there was a dodgy connection in the wiring centre it will have the same affect on all system components. As Murdoch said above the live/lives could well be carrying full voltage but without a neutral there is no loop created and no function of components.
The only real way to test this is with a multimeter, checking for 230 volts between live and neutral and live and earth, not with a terminal screwdriver I suspect you've used?

I do have a multimeter, I am not taking any chances with electricity. But so far I never even had the wiring centre open when the power was (supposedly) on. I understand what you are saying about the voltage, even without any component operating.

My new wiring centre has connector blocks for neutral and earth that are connected via small 'paper clip' metal connectors. I am wondering whether they are reliable? I did not like them when wiring things up, as I wanted to use insulated ferrules everywhere, but I could not get the ferrules into the connector blocks alongside the 'clips'. So my neutrals and earth are connected with bare wires. I am thinking about redoing the earth and neutral blocks with proper cable connection between the terminals in the respective blocks?

 

[SJB060685]

@Murdoch can you explain to him the requirements in this case. My understanding is any wires or links should be of suitable size and insulated. If not then I can see potential arching, which would obviously cause things to trip as well as potential fire hazards.

 

[CheshireH]

@Murdoch can ypu explain to him the requirements in this case. My understanding is any wires or links should be of suitable size and insulated. If not then I can see potential arching, which would obviously cause things to trip as well as potential fire hazards.

I would appreciate this. The wiring centre which I purchased is a Danfoss WC4B which is purpose made for S/Y-Plan wiring, and the small clips in the neutral and earth blocks came pre-installed.
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These are the paper clip style connectors I am referring too. I managed to get the insulated ferrules in on this example using the old wiring centre, but I was struggling in the mix of all cables to fit them in. Could try again if the paper style clips are ok to use, otherwise I could use the double entry ferrules (example on right) to add little 1mm wire connectors between the terminals?

 

[SJB060685]

Those links are supplied with the wiring centre and are already in place for how the wiring should be done. They are ok but all other wires should be insulated.

 

[CheshireH]

Those links are supplied with the wiring centre and are already in place for how the wiring should be done. They are ok but all other wires should be insulated.

All wires are insulated and fitted with insulated ferrrules. Links between Live terminals are made with 1.5mm insulated links. It is just the earths and neutrals that are fitted without ferrules, alongside the 'clip links'.

 

[Murdoch]

My advice is to stop meddling and pay somebody ........

 

[CheshireH]

My advice is to stop meddling and pay somebody .

I started 'meddling' because I paid somebody who fed two live feeds into the wiring centre that were not isolated by the boiler switch, left the messiest of wiring centres and did not include a switched live to the boiler. I appreciate the advice not to take risks with electricity, but I do find it very helpful to understand what is going on, even if I then ask somebody to implement. Thanks for all the help so far!

 

[CheshireH]

Just wanted to report that things are now working fine. I rewired everything, adding another neutral and another earth connector block linked to the existing ones, so that no wires are doubled up on any earth or neutral connector. All wire ends are now terminated in isolated ferrules. I tightened all connections carefully. I checked for the correct signal on the switched live with a multimeter, before connecting switched live to the boiler.

The problem on the last step must have had to do with a poor connection. I read up a lot on possible issues, but I simply cannot explain my scenario: It all worked fine, I then did nothing else than adding a new boiler cable with switched live included, it started off fine until suddenly all components stopped. There was no issue with the power supply from the mains. Same scenario again twice after - starting up fine then switching off all components. Eventually, even removing the boiler live did not fix it. I ended up removing the boiler cables altogether, and then connected them again without the switched live. I do not think however that the addition of the switched live was in any way relevant, as it works fine now in exactly the same wiring constellation.

If anybody has any further input on what kind of poor connection and scenario could have caused this failure, it would certainly make me feel much better, and might help others who may read this thread in the future!

Thanks again for all the advice. Fingers crossed, but it looks as if I now have a safer set-up, with no more external live feeds that are not isolated by the boiler switch coming into the wiring centre from programmer and UFH controller, plus the addition of wireless switching of all components!

 

[Ben-gee]

A common one is that you insert a wire slightly too far and do up the terminal screw on the insulation/bare metal border - this causes intermittent faults...