be nice to hear an outcome to this please let us know how gas safe handle this you could get a second opinion from another gas safe installer but its going to cost you
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- Thread starter Chris-Newcastle
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C
Chris-Newcastle
Hi Traci,
No, they did not retest. Informally Gas Safe have told me that the method they used in doing the tightness test was faulty because they did not look at which appliances were connected before doing the test. When the test showed up the fire as supposedly leaking they did not investigate it but just immediately capped it off and put an 'ID' label on it. When I later told them that the fire had an uncontrolled pilot light they reacted with surprise and
then got very defensive saying that a fire without an FSD is dangerous and must stay unconnected. In our last conversation they said the same thing but then said that they didn't care if I got someone else to reconnect it.
This I think shows that their concern is not for our safety but just for their own stubborn refusal to admit that they have made a mistake.
Welcome to our world Chris,
Gas safe are more concerned with covering their own backs than actually resolving issues. A fire without an FSD is NCS, but there is no reason why it can't stay connected.
You can try the HSE and see what they say if this has really annoyed you. Or, call gas safe back and tell them you want it in writing that in their opinion the fire is dangerous, they may change their stance once asked to put it in writing.
I've rang them a couple of times and I've never been satisfied with the outcome.
Gas safe are more concerned with covering their own backs than actually resolving issues. A fire without an FSD is NCS, but there is no reason why it can't stay connected.
You can try the HSE and see what they say if this has really annoyed you. Or, call gas safe back and tell them you want it in writing that in their opinion the fire is dangerous, they may change their stance once asked to put it in writing.
I've rang them a couple of times and I've never been satisfied with the outcome.
C
Chris-Newcastle
Hi Darryl - Sorry my post must have been rushed - it wasn't Gas Safe who said the fire was dangerous - as far as I can tell Gas Safe agree with me. One of Gas Safe's technical advisors said that the method used for the tightness test was faulty, and that the engineers should have closed the pilot light first and after failing to do this, they should have retested when I made them aware of the issue.
It was the engineers who got defensive and won't admit their mistake.
It was the engineers who got defensive and won't admit their mistake.
C
Chris-Newcastle
I only submitted the complaint yesterday so I'm waiting to see what happens.
They did say they are only concerned with safety and that I might have to go to trading standards about this firm.
If you get someone else in for a second opinion, they may say the same as the other firm! There doesn't appear to be anything in 'unsafe situations procedures' regarding appliances without an F.S.D. http://www.User PlumbersForums.net ... Edition 6 - publication web version V1 1.pdf
If you could get it in writing from Gas safe (an email) that the appliance is safe to use if all the other checks have been carried out correctly then you can show it to any engineer and he can verify before signing his life away! If anyone can find an answer to this in any regs etc (which at the end of the day, we have to follow to the letter) then post it on here and we can all move on!
There really is no grey area here. If the appliance, by design, operates without an FSD then it is NCS. No if's nor buts. If all other safety checks are good it perfectly safe to use. I dont like to say the engineer is incompetent as he/she appears to be erring on side of safety, but lack of knowledge of the regs/standards is itself incompetent and they have caused at least one member the public a lot of needless stress and hassle.
B
Billy Bob Bob
if your memory is anything like mine your probably right. I have often got to work and forgotten to pick up my apprentice on the way. lol
my very first apprentice had his moments, i once gave him my A to Z to direct me to the next address when working in cannock. about half an hour later we finally got there and i then realised we were only two streets away from where we had started. that was the last time he got to use an A to Z.
R
royston
Ive walked out of customers front door, gone to van for something then walked straight into next doors !
B
Billy Bob Bob
J
jayjay
after having read the comments, this is an interesting situation however if you look at the gas industry unsafe situation procedure booklet.. part2 section 9.3 (general). this is not full quotation but is a summary it is saying,
" some old appliances exist which do not conform to current standards and as such need to be assessed individualy, as standards have changed due to research and incidents investigation. it is the gas operative who makes the idividual assesment. if an existing installation is not in accordance with current regs etc it should be considered to be NCS, providing it can only be used without consitiuting a danger to anyone and is not likley to do so."
Now could this be considered safe or is there a possibility of the pilot going out and causing a gas escape that is the fundamental question. If there is a possibility then by sub clause 6.4 you may upgrade to an AR. Again this is down to the individual who is after all the person signing to say it is or is not safe.
After all if this went up in a fire ball would the HSE look at this reg and ask the question do you consider that the system was safe in light of the recent explosion? all you gas engineers who have been doing this for a number of years I am sure have seen some real poor jobs and as such has this engineer not endevoured to ensure this customer was safe? did he leave the premises safer or more dangerous? Is saftey the main aim as a gas engineer. As for HOBs without FSD would you put your hob gas on and go out to work or on holiday? and that is why they are a different prospect.
As you stated you are thinking of changing this gas fire, my advice would be to follow that line then when you go out you can rest assured that your children/family are safe!
" some old appliances exist which do not conform to current standards and as such need to be assessed individualy, as standards have changed due to research and incidents investigation. it is the gas operative who makes the idividual assesment. if an existing installation is not in accordance with current regs etc it should be considered to be NCS, providing it can only be used without consitiuting a danger to anyone and is not likley to do so."
Now could this be considered safe or is there a possibility of the pilot going out and causing a gas escape that is the fundamental question. If there is a possibility then by sub clause 6.4 you may upgrade to an AR. Again this is down to the individual who is after all the person signing to say it is or is not safe.
After all if this went up in a fire ball would the HSE look at this reg and ask the question do you consider that the system was safe in light of the recent explosion? all you gas engineers who have been doing this for a number of years I am sure have seen some real poor jobs and as such has this engineer not endevoured to ensure this customer was safe? did he leave the premises safer or more dangerous? Is saftey the main aim as a gas engineer. As for HOBs without FSD would you put your hob gas on and go out to work or on holiday? and that is why they are a different prospect.
As you stated you are thinking of changing this gas fire, my advice would be to follow that line then when you go out you can rest assured that your children/family are safe!
If you have explained the situation in full, strongly recommending the appliance be removed, you have acted responsibly. Get all this down on paperwork and I would be happy. It cannot be 'AR' in my opinion as no fault exists to classify it as such and it certainly is not 'ID' giving them the right to cut it off.
Interpreting it as you have put it would 'AR' every gas fire out there as they all have a risk of burning you-there is no fault to classify 'AR', but there is still a risk. The GIUSP is only a guideline to work by and give us engineers a help in classifying certain situations.
Interpreting it as you have put it would 'AR' every gas fire out there as they all have a risk of burning you-there is no fault to classify 'AR', but there is still a risk. The GIUSP is only a guideline to work by and give us engineers a help in classifying certain situations.
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