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cr0ft

Plumbers Arms member
Plumber
Gas Engineer
Nov 10, 2008
3,311
1,782
113
Lincoln, Lincolnshire
Member Type
Heating Engineer (Has GSR)
This is a follow on from the recent 1st floor wetroom we have installed where the customer had a leak coming down his ground floor hall wall (not the stairs wall) and notified us around 2 weeks after we had installed it.

13/03/2014: - Final payment for the wetroom transferred by BACS on 13/03/2014.
31/03/2014: - Call at 7:30am to inform me the downstairs wall under the shower is wet. I attend at around 9am and spot a small gap in the silicon seal around the concealed shower plate. I reseal and I wait to hear if that fixes it.
01/04/2014: - Email from customer stating that although the affected area has expanded slightly (the damp mark on the wall) there appears to be no further leakage. He believes that the issue is sorted. I reply by email offering to repair the wall and repaint but suggest we should leave it for 2 weeks to do this first. I agree.
03/04/2014: - Email at 8:30pm informing me that the leak has gotten worse again. Water is coming out of the door frame downstairs immediately below the shower. I have to reply stating that I am away down South for a funeral of a friend and won't be back until Monday.
04/04/2014: - Email at 21:21 from the customer stating they have found the leak with the endoscope camera they have borrowed from their work. I am unable to pick this email up until today as I am away. Leak is on a plastic push fit 15mm tee on the cold mains feed to the shower (under the floor of the wetroom/above the hall ceiling, immediately over the damaged wall downstairs).
05/04/2014: - Email at 13:07 from the customer stating they have had to bring in another plumber to fix the issue as they can't wait 4 days without cold mains water. I am unable to pick this email up until today as I am away. No effort was made to call/text me to agree this on my phone. Had it been I would have sent my employee over to fix this. The charge from the other plumbing company was £137.80p - £7.50p for a replacement Speedfit 15mm equal tee, £104 for labour then 20% VAT on top.. Customer also states there is a 2nd leak on the tap connector connecting onto the shower head (concealed shower) that comes on when the shower is running hot water. It does not leak when the shower is not running and it is a slow leak so is unlikely to have contributed to the damage.
07/04/2014: - I visit the property and open an upstairs wall on the opposite side of the stud wall to the shower in order to fix the leak on the back of the shower head. This head has not been connected too with a copper to iron elbow due to the cavity not being wide enough to fit one in, thus a bent tap connector has been used. The shower head (supplied by customer) is in effect too wide to fit properly in the cavity but I made it fit by fitting a bent tap connector instead of a copper to iron elbow, not ideal though I know. I have offered verbally to patch, skim and repaint all 3x affected walls and also the downstairs hall ceiling. Customer states that he wants all 3 rooms repainted entirely including the upstairs hall (unaffected by water damage). I have stated that I would not be willing to do this. Customer is concerned about getting an exact colour match with the other walls. My view is that the house will be left in a better state once repair work is done than it was before (the existing decor was rather old even before the damage). Customer cannot remember what brands/colours of paint was used in each room although they have stated that they decorated the rooms since the house was built (it's around 10 years old).

I am proposing to offer replastering and painting of the damaged walls/ceiling only and also pay the plumber's charge too, even though we were not contacted before he was brought in. Does this seem reasonable?
 
The mark of how good you are, is how well you sort out your cock ups ( we all ave them from time to time)
 
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Ok. Going to leave this one to run for a few more people's opinions then I will write to him tomorrow. I don't really want to go through my insurance as it will only end up costing me more in the longer term.

Cheers all.
 
Look at what happened to Hammers insurance payments (WTF) after a 1k claim by a customer... Do whatever you need to in order to get a happy chappy customer is my advice.
 
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I have no experience with this type of matter but I agree with the others, sounds reasonable to me, you have offered to pay the plumber and repair the damage. What more do they want?

A bit unfortunate that you was away so could not receive emails/messages immediately but sounds like this would have only contributed to the damage a little bit as they got the other plumber to repair. Sounds to me like the customer wants more than what they are entitled to. I hate people like that.

If I was a customer and something like this happened all would be forgiven as soon as it was clear that all was getting put right.

Obviously you will have to do what ever you can to sort it so that they don't bad mouth you.
 
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I can see both points of view. I had one a while ago where a subby working for me put hand prints all over a freshly painted room. The room was painted in a specially mixed colour, I ended up getting the whole room painted as to be honest the one wall ended up a slightly different colour. Having one wall painted will look silly and it wont match.

I would personally get it all painted to put it right if it was me, its my leak and damaged caused because of this. You and the customer both need to be happy with the end result.
 
Take my advice do not claim on your insurance as you will be nailed on your next year's PI .

I was given bad advice and shafted by a cylinder manufacturer now my New PI is the cost of a nice new van
 
My honest opinion.

I think you've been fair but then you also have to look at it from the customers perspective. You've had a couple of leaks that don't look good for you from an untrained eye. You charge a good rate by your own admission so in this instance I would go the extra mile rather than be stubborn and feel hard done by for having to do more than you feel you should.

Not only could you get shafted by you insurance company, you'll look like an arse to everyone he tells his side of the story too and all for a days work and a pot of paint.

**** happens, thankfully I've not had it yet but sometimes a bit of arse licking is required when you make a mistake to save your reputation which is priceless really.

look at the 'extras' as compensation for the inconvenience.
 
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crOft.

Not nice at the time but man up, get the dust sheets out, repair the damage, repaint and shake hands.
 
Problem is that I can't paint for crap so I would be having to pay to get a decorator in! That is going to cost me a lot of £
 
Seems reasonable to me, but sounds like the customer wants you to bend over and take it mate. Like others have said though, sounds like you might have to grab the soap on this one.
 
Hi Phil I thought about it but I have as much chance as a snowball's chance in hell of successfully getting money out of JG. I hate the bloody fittings to be honest and only fit them where I have no choice. I hate plastic pipe full stop to be honest. I fitted the fitting and all 3 pipes where definitely into the stops fully and the ends tightened.
 
And tested to 100,000 bar or whatever it is they specify? Then you have no way of proving it. The warranties on the plastic pipe systems aren't worth the paper they are written on IMO.
 
Anyone who has used plastic would have some point had an issue with it .plastic and risk go hand in hand imho
 
Sounds like you might have to bite down on that sh&t sandwhich and move on.....find some guys and pay them. Think of it as saving money as the PI route is a joke by all accounts.

I ripped a brand new kitchen floor 12 months ago....I had to chomp down on a £330 sh$t sandwich. That day I would have been better off staying in bed all day loosing a days pay and flushing £100 cash straight down the toilet when I got up at tea time.
 
Hi Phil I thought about it but I have as much chance as a snowball's chance in hell of successfully getting money out of JG. I hate the bloody fittings to be honest and only fit them where I have no choice. I hate plastic pipe full stop to be honest. I fitted the fitting and all 3 pipes where definitely into the stops fully and the ends tightened.

remember that insert you found in your pocket?!...

i think ink your offer is more than fair. He's trying to mug you off now.
 
Well on balance I have read all the bits on here and emailed him offering to pay to patch up the ceiling/walls and skim them before painting in as close a match paint as we can find. To be honest if he pushes to have me repaint all 3 rooms including the full hall up and down he can take me to court for it. I would be very surprised if a court rules that my offer is unreasonable tbh.

I've tried to consider the situation from the other side and I would be quite happy with that arrangement if someone had water damaged my house. I believe he is trying to take advantage now and I think he has been offered a good offer, it's not like I am running away from the situation after all.

The existing decor is, erm, rather old and tired anyway tbh hence my stance. There is already existing water damage on the hall ceiling that we will be fixing for free for him now too.
 
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remember that insert you found in your pocket?!...

i think ink your offer is more than fair. He's trying to mug you off now.

LOL no they were all definitely in there. I have the fitting here and will be inspecting it more closely tomorrow.
 
Be careful of winning arguments with customers. In retrospect, those wins can look a lot like losses.

If you charge a premium price, and then have two leaks, it doesn't matter what the cause is. You can kiss one of two things goodbye. The cost of doing MORE than necessary, or your reputation as a premium contractor.
 
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compromise and get on with what they ask, ask them to pay for the paint if they want the whole lot decorated at least it will help. When your being screwed just get out the Vaseline and get any enjoyment you can, if you fight it will only hurt more
 
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Be careful of winning arguments with customers. In retrospect, those wins can look a lot like losses.

If you charge a premium price, and then have two leaks, it doesn't matter what the cause is. You can kiss one of two things goodbye. The cost of doing MORE than necessary, or your reputation as a premium contractor.

I do agree with what you are saying Ray. All I can say is that this was the last job we did before we started charging premium prices (thank god). It was booked in 6 months back before our prices went up.

2 leaks does look bad though. I think that the customer is actually going to be happy now with the walls being repainted. B&Q do a paint matching service for free I believe so I hope it's a case of everyone is happy. Will see what he says re my suggestion on Wed I guess and keep you all updated.

To be honest I want to find a situation where we are all happy, I don't want to feel I have won really nor do I want to feel that they are taking the mick out of me. I think we can get there tbh with this customer.
 
Why does two leaks look bad ? Just unfortunate imho your a plumber and work with water leaks happen it's just the size of the leak that counts. How many cabs have you got in and the have taken wrong turn ? How many times has a painter had paint run ? Just our mistakes cause damage that's why it looks bad .
 
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Worth bearing in mind that insurance companies won't support betterment. They will put back to the original state but any improvement would still be down to you so even less point in claiming.
 
Suggest he claims off his house insurance and you pay the excess. It's a lovely solution.
 
Not EVERYBODY tells people about bad experiences with tradesmen. News of a less than satisfactory experience probably doesn't spread as much as people like to say. Even cowboy builders worthy of a TV appearance seem to manage to find no end of customers. And even if it did spread a bit, you know what conversations are like, nobody listens to each other half the time and are they going to remember the name of the company the person was yakking on about?

The reason it takes 5 years on average for a tradesman doing good work to become full time on rep alone is word spreads but it spreads very slowly. And even if a bad rep spreads faster, the odd job with a unhappy customer isn't going to do much damage unless they're taking it to The Mail Online. I'm not saying this with any reference whatsoever to do with the job in question. Just a side point that I think the old adage that a happy customer will tell a couple of people and an unhappy one will tell 20 is probably massively overstated. And in the case of someone who leaves behind them the very occasional slightly less than totally pleased customer, the effect will be as good as nonexistant.
 
Not EVERYBODY tells people about bad experiences with tradesmen. News of a less than satisfactory experience probably doesn't spread as much as people like to say. Even cowboy builders worthy of a TV appearance seem to manage to find no end of customers. And even if it did spread a bit, you know what conversations are like, nobody listens to each other half the time and are they going to remember the name of the company the person was yakking on about?

The reason it takes 5 years on average for a tradesman doing good work to become full time on rep alone is word spreads but it spreads very slowly. And even if a bad rep spreads faster, the odd job with a unhappy customer isn't going to do much damage unless they're taking it to The Mail Online. I'm not saying this with any reference whatsoever to do with the job in question. Just a side point that I think the old adage that a happy customer will tell a couple of people and an unhappy one will tell 20 is probably massively overstated. And in the case of someone who leaves behind them the very occasional slightly less than totally pleased customer, the effect will be as good as nonexistant.

I think you statement it true when living in an urban area. But like myself, living in a rural location. Reputation is everything.
 

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