Radiator emitting strong odor when heat goes up

[John93]

Greetings everyone,

I live in a small building. My unit has 1 bedroom. The bedroom radiator has been inoperable for over 10 years. The living room rad has operated just fine in that time. It is a cast iron base board radiator powered by hot water. Not steam.

This past summer a plumber was dispatched and he was able to turn on the bedroom radiator. This fixed the issue regarding not having heat. In the fall it began to radiate heat. There was no smell at that time. Very briefly for one day or so a faint smell was there. But it went away immediately.

Since the real cold began in December. The bedroom radiator emits a very strong odor. I contacted the plumber who got the rad working. He advised me to use compressed air. Or to let it burn through whatever had accumulated for 10 years of not functioning.

After 4 weeks. Where the smell did not get any less intense. I used a compressor and blew out that radiator. When I started forcing air through it. Silver foil and also black backing paper which was situated behind the silver foil started to come out. I also forced 2 large clouds of dust out on both ends of the rad.

After that one session. The smell became somewhat less in concentration. I decided to blow out the rest of the silver foil and black backing paper. This also reduced the concentration. I then scraped the bits left near the top.

So at that point looking into it visually. It is just wood back there. With some small spaces between the wood where drywall is seen. Other than that it is essentially empty.

The smell is greatly reduced. But is still off gassing something as it is not a clean smell in the bedroom.

I have spoken to a few people on this issue. Which made me think to turn to the forums to get some kind of help. As this matter is now ongoing and I have no way of isolating what the smell could be.

People have asked me if there are any leaks. Either from the rad or bleeder valve. I can confirm that there is no leak whatsoever. There is carpet in both the bedroom and living room area. The carpet is not too dark. So any leak, especially that black water running through the heating system in our small building would show up on the carpet. I also left paper around the pipes to see if anything leaked and it was dry.

The smell disappears when the heat is off. So it cannot be mold.

The very frustrating thing about this scenario is that the materials in both the bedroom and living room are identical. Both radiators were painted with the same oil based paint. Both living room and bedroom have the same carpet. The living room radiator does not emit any kind of smell whatsoever. And yet if I look inside with a flash light it has that silver foil and black backing paper. But does not smell at all.

Which brings me to the very heart of this problem. If both rooms have the same materials surrounding the radiators. And seem to be painted the same. Likely installed by the same people at the same time as radiators are identical. Meaning one is not any newer in terms of model or make.

For some unknown reason the bedroom radiator emits a strong odor when the heat goes up. It is much less now that I used the air compressor. But not enough to breathe it in. I do not know exactly what is in the air but it does not smell to me to be safe to inhale for prolonged periods of time.

I have had contact with one person from another site. He keeps saying there must be a chemical or pesticide used on the bedroom rad. That does not seem likely. Pesticide was not used. As for chemicals. That I am not certain about. Both rads look the same to me and have the same surrounding materials.

Now the bedroom rad has no silver foil or black backing paper inside. And I am trying to isolate what that smell could be. And then take some kind of action to lessen it. But I cannot understand what is heating up and emitting that smell?

Cannot be mold. Otherwise smell would not disappear with the heat off. Is not a leak, as that would show. Also a leak would smell even with the heat off. Carpet goes underneath the rad. But carpet is in the living room as well and no smell at all there.

Can wood or dry wall cause this sort of smell when heated?

How does a person go about isolating a smell? I cannot think of a logical way to approach this problem. I forced air through that rad thinking it would improve the smell. And it worked to reduce the concentration of the smell. But did not get rid of it. It is much less now but even at let's say 7% concentration, that room is not likely safe to sleep in.

Hence my turning to the forums in the hopes that someone with experience could point me in the right direction. As I have researched this endlessly. And am no closer to finding a solution.

Any feedback or assistance would be immensely appreciated. Thank you.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Dead rodent,

 

[John93]

Dead rodent,

This is possible as there was a mouse that would come out of that rad from time to time.

If it is a dead rodent. What does one do to get rid of that smell?

Also, this smell has been here since December. Can a small mouse release this much smell under so much heat?

Wouldn't the intensity of heat burn through the mouse remains relatively quickly? Could one mouse cause a smell that has not abated in over 2 months?

 

[jtsplumbing]

Simple answer is yes they stink, you need to find the corpse may be more than one. In fact there is always more than one !!

 

[John93]

The bedroom radiator has 2 pipes that come out of the floor. The right side of this radiator is where the mouse would come out from. But when I open the panel on both sides of the radiator. It is just solid concrete with holes for the pipes. How can I get down there to remove the dead rodents? There is a floor directly below me.

When I had the compressor I thought about blowing air into the holes around the pipes. But my concern was that I would move things and the smell would go to the living room which is the only room I can sleep in. I am currently living out of that living room. Have been for the last 2 months. Cannot sleep in the bedroom due to that smell.

How can I get to the dead mice/mouse if it is solid concrete and only small circle openings around the pipes? I guess I could blow compressed air the other direction. Away from the living room, and away from the bedroom. But without a place for it to leave or vent would I accomplish anything by blowing compressed air into the space beneath my floor? And secondly, would there not be a chance that I could blow the debris into the space below my living room rad and then that would be releasing a smell?

What can a person do, if it is solid concrete and no way to get to the mouse/mice? Is there something which can speed up the decomposition process?

Would calling a pro help with this kind of thing? And if so, would it be a pest control type of service or a heating/plumber?

I guess in theory if the pest control people have a camera that can look into holes. They would confirm whether there are mice or a mouse there. But how would they remove the dead mice/mouse? This would require a very thing type of vacuum or some other tool designed to pull from very small crevices and spaces.

Do such tools exist?

Can a dead mouse or mice smell for over 2 months? Last question. Is the smell from a dead mouse harmful to breathe? Meaning can I keep the door and the window open and sleep in that room until I look into pest control?

By the way, a massive thank you to jtsplumbing. So far you are the only person who has come up with something which is even remotely close to explaining the cause of this smell.

 

[John93]

I would like to point something out as this may be relevant.

The smell which the bedroom radiator is releasing does not smell like something dead and rotting. It has more of a chemical smell to it.

Also, when I had the 2 end caps off, which exposed the pipes coming up and down through the floor below. I would try to smell where the scent was coming from and it was from the radiator. Not from the end points at the left and right sides where the pipes come up.

If the rodents were dead and being cooked. It would make sense that the smell would come up from the sides where the concrete opening are for the pipes that lead into the rad. But those openings did not smell. They produced no scent at all.

Only the radiator has a smell. Meaning the port holes at the top of the cast iron base board rad had the scent. No way the mouse died in the rad as it is too narrow for the mouse to walk in there. It is like a grill on the inside.

Can someone confirm or relay what a dead mouse smells like? Can this smell be similar to a chemical smell? Like burning paint? Or oil based paint that is off gassing?

Or is the smell of dead rodents very different from that?

Who would I contact in order to get this removed?

A friend recommended that I contact the city inspector/fire department as they have tools to measure the air quality and identify the source of the smell.

Thank you.

 

[Gasmk1]

i dont think it is a dead rat, found this on a search "Unfortunately it may take three weeks or more to completely decompose. A professional may be contacted to break through and rebuild affected walls. This can be costly and not a viable option. Even after elimination of the source of dead rodent smell, the unsettling scent may linger for up to two weeks".
dont know if heating up would make a difference. i presume you are in USA, is it baseboard radiators, if so doesnt the cover lift of.
may be worth getting the plumber back.

 

[John93]

Hi Gasmk1,

I think what you found makes perfect sense. As this burning smell has been here for almost 2 month now. Which would put it well past the timeline stated in the article. 3 weeks to decompose. Another 2 for the scent to leave. That's 5 weeks. This is now at around 7-8 weeks.

I am curious about what the fire department or city inspector can do to diagnose the smell. If it is oil based paint that is off gassing. As that is one possibility. The rad may have been painted by the previous owner and left off. Meaning it never cured. The bedroom rad has been inoperable for over 10 years. This could be related.

Again the smell is not of something dead or decomposing. But like a burning chemical or fume. Hard to describe the smell. It is not damp. It does not smell rotten. It smells like a burning smell of some kind. Not plastic. More like a paint of fume, or even like materials inside the rad are heating up and off gassing. But all that is left inside is wood. As I wrote earlier after I used the air compressor, I blew out all the silver foil and black backing paper. So it is just wood and a bit of dry wall and some metal brackets inside.

I will include some pics.

 

[John93]

Pic 1 shows the sides where the pipe and bleeder valve are.

I put foil there, to block the mouse from coming in. The smell began before I put the tin foil around the pipes in the side brackets where the concrete holes are.

I imagine that if the smell was due to dead rodents, the smell would come up from the sides of the rad where the pipes come in. But that is not where the smell comes from but instead from the entire span of the rad.

There was no smell at all at the sides where the pipes come in.

The port holes I mentioned run along the top of the rad. That is where I smell this fume.

The last pic is a close up of the black backing paper that was directly behind the silver foil which lined the entire inside of the radiator. When I used compressed air. I blew out all of this material. For some reason I thought this could be causing the smell. And the intensity of the smell did drop significantly after all of this material came out. But did not disappear completely. Which is why I am still trying to figure out how to resolve this and get my bedroom back.

Sleeping and living out of my living room close to 7-8 weeks now. This has not been what I would categorize as enjoyable.

The great line "Winter of our discontent" certainly springs to mind. 🙂

 

[jtsplumbing]

Can you remove the entire panel for the length of the heater you will be amazed where rodents can get.

 

[gmartine]

Yep, you need to get in there somehow or call the landlord (if renting) for rodents and smell. Incidentally I guess you're not writing to us from the UK, perhaps a forum nearer to home will be more familiar with this type of installation.

It might be possible to clean/dislodge behind the panel by rodding with the right equipment if there is room (flue cleaning kit).

 

[John93]

jtsplumbing, I don't doubt that the mouse can get in there. There's just nothing there to eat or attract them. They were coming up that pipe and through the opening around it. Then into my living room, and then most likely the kitchen.

I wish I could take it apart but I live in a building and it would mean draining the entire system and having a plumber rip it out of the wall and then get a dry wall guy to fix it up.

One other person mentioned a heat gun. To increase the temperature significantly.

I wonder if this could help to speed up the off gassing?

jtsplumbing, can you confirm what does a dead mouse or mice smell like? Can they smell like burning paint or chemical? Or does it smell rotten like rotten flesh?

 

[gmartine]

 

[jtsplumbing]

John you need to get that panel off asap just because they were running across the floor doesn't mean they were just coming up through floor, on a site seeing trip they are after food, to feed young, could be hundreds of them, Please nothing to attract them ! they may be nesting in there after all its nice and warm

 

[John93]

JTSI hear what you are saying. Will have to talk to my building to see what can be done about getting that panel off. If they were nesting in the radiator grill, who knows what is in there.

You seem to be very experienced with this sort of thing. In the times that you have come across something like this, what do burned rodents smell like? Do they smell like burned paint? Or is the odor more like dead flesh or something rotting?

I have no point of references to gauge the scent or make any kind of comparison.

 

[jtsplumbing]

I live in Devon out in the country side so rodents pose a problem, they eat though pipes, Electric cables, infect they will eat almost anything , will burrow through almost anything brick walls ,wood, concrete , and will nest anywhere, so get that panel removed then at least it will eliminate the problem one way or another, if not rodents it could be something else under there causing the smell that will need sorting out.

 

[John93]

JTS removing that panel may be difficult. But I will contact my building and explore that option.

One other person on another site recommended using a heat gun. Could this safely burn off whatever smell is lingering?

I have one specific question with regards to the silver foil and black backing paper that I blew out of the radiator. This lined the entire back part of the inside of that rad. Would the removal of this foil and black paper cause any functional damage to the radiator? Meaning that more heat will hit the wood and wall behind the rad now that that material has been removed.

 

[jtsplumbing]

It seem as we are going around in circles, taking another look at the photos that panel is NOT in the best condition signs of rust along the bottom, several layers of paint, those panels are designed to be removed, for some reason someone has run wood beading around it the black paper substance is a water proof layer against the timber to stop damp, (the silver foil is to reflect the heat) which could also be the cause of the smell, your going to have to bite the bullet and remove that panel to investigate what is going on behind, it could be a lot more serious than you think, using a heat gun is not going to do anything, REMOVE THE PANEL.

 

[John93]

JTS I want to make sure we are on the same page here.

When you say to remove the panel you are referencing the metallic portion of the rad which heats up and emits heat? This is what you mean by panel?

Am I correct is saying that would require draining the entire system of water. And getting a plumber to remove/rip out the panel and then investigate?

Is that the correct understanding? If so, this may be a large expense. But I will take it up with my building.

JTS when you mentioned the silver foil and black paper which you clarified is a water barrier. You mentioned it could be the source of the smell. Which did you mean could be the source? The silver foil or the black water barrier?

Have you come across radiators where either this silver foil or the black water barrier gave off a smell?

 

[jtsplumbing]

1st No you wont need to drain the system just to remove the metal panel these should be made removable for cleaning etc. as they attract a lot of dirt, if its like our heaters of this type you will have aluminium fins on the pipes used to transmit the heat,
The black paper looking material is used to stop moisture penetrating the wood, its possible that you may have a small water leak of some kind behind the panel So its got to be removed to investigate the problem.

 

[NickH]

Pehaps you've got borrowers living in there, they cause a smell when they're cooking.

 

[John93]

JTS the plumber who opened up the valve, told me that if the smell did not go away that the radiator would need to be ripped out, the system drained and then the dry wall person would have to come in and patch everything back up.

This one has two pipes. I think the pipe coming in is on the left, where the shut off valve is. And the pipe on the right where the pics above have the close up with the bleeder valve is the one going out.


If a plumber shut off the valve and bled that rad, could they take it out without having to drain the system? I'm not sure how else you could take it out without spilling that black water everywhere when it comes off.

The smell is not of something dead, but rather like a fume or burning smell. Something like paint or coating off gassing.

One of the things I researched was that the coating from the factory can off gas. One woman had this happen. But she had a cast iron rad, not cast iron base board rad that I have.

A friend recommended that I contact the Fire Department as they have equipment that can test the air and identify the smell. I am thinking of doing this next. As at least this would identify what that fume is.

JTS I don't believe it's a leak. With that black water running through the system. Even the smallest leak would have shown by now. Also please recall that when the heat is off, no smell at all. If it was leaking, there would be a smell even with the heat off. This smell comes and goes with the heat. And increases in intensity proportionate to the heat in the rad.

If it was rodents, it would smell like something dead and rotting.

As you noted there are a lot of layers of paint. That seems more related than rodents or a leak at this point.

 

[jtsplumbing]

John, B4 anything else it is important that the cover panel is removed, without doing that your not going to find the reason for the smell, I don't know how they install systems in the US, but if that was in the UK it would have service valves at each end, just because you can-not see signs of a leak doesn't mean there isn't one, REMOVE THE PANEL !!! until you do your only guessing at what is going on, if as you state the water in the system is black ! you need to get the heating system cleaned, Then a anti- corrosive added to the heating water as we do in the UK, Seems to me what you need is some English Plumbers in the US the sort out your systems.

 

[Gasmk1]

John, B4 anything else it is important that the cover panel is removed, without doing that your not going to find the reason for the smell, I don't know how they install systems in the US, but if that was in the UK it would have service valves at each end, just because you can-not see signs of a leak doesn't mean there isn't one, REMOVE THE PANEL !!! until you do your only guessing at what is going on, if as you state the water in the system is black ! you need to get the heating system cleaned, Then a anti- corrosive added to the heating water as we do in the UK, Seems to me what you need is some English Plumbers in the US the sort out your systems.

a lot of their systems work slightly different to ours if you watch any US building programmes. A few American homes have radiators, but these are nearly always of the old-fashioned steam variety and not the newer hot water ones. American steam radiators are typically part of legacy systems in buildings constructed before 1940.

 

[John93]

JTS there are no service valves on the either sides of this rad. There is a shut off valve on the left side. There is only a pipe coming out on the right. And bleeder valve also on the right.

I reside in Canada not the US.

To Gasmk1. This is hot water rad. Not steam. Look at the pics above. It is a cast iron base board rad. Built in the 50's.

Will have to follow up with my building to get the panel off. As previously stated. The heating guy who opened and got my rad working was very clear that they would need to drain the entire system and then rip out the rad. Dry wall person to follow in order to fix it all up. That is a lot of work and money.

All else aside not sure what other option I may have. I am trying to get in contact with fire department for them to come by and check the air quality and determine where the smell is coming from.

Thank you everyone, for your help and feedback. It is much appreciated.

 

[Gasmk1]

you could kep costs down a little by removing the beading and dry wall yourself to make the removal of the panel easier for the plumber

 

[Gasmk1]

could you not hire one of those remote cameras to lokk into th eradiator see if you can see anything

 

[jtsplumbing]

could you not hire one of those remote cameras to lokk into th eradiator see if you can see anything

Mate I don't know why he doesn't claim on house insurance, John wants the problem sorted But by the sounds he has no money to do it looking at the photos the beading was put on as a after thought and I keep telling him that he needs to remove the metal case in order to see what is going on behind it and just to do that he does not need to drain the system

 

[Gasmk1]

I thought the same but he is reluctant think he thinks he might open a can of worms so to speak

 

[John93]

Gentlemen, the reason I am reluctant to open up a job that may cost a few grand. Is because the smell has been getting less and less in intensity. This means that whatever is causing it. Is very slowly starting to wane. Why would I spend a few thousand dollars, rip something open. If it is the paint. And we know it's the paint, where if it was rodents as JTS pointed out. But never once confirmed the smell despite my asking several times. I had to get that from another source. If it was rodents. It would smell like a dead rotting thing. Which it does not.

If it was a leak. However small as JTS has also mentioned. It would show by now. In the carpet. Along some point near or under the rad.

There are no leaks. No stains. Smell disappears when the heat to the rad drops. A leak would produce a smell even with heat off. Which is not the case here.

I used an air compressor and blew out the silver foil and the black paper water barrier. This paper JTS did confirm and name as a water barrier. You guys don't think I would have noticed a mouse nest or mouse carcass when I was blowing out dust, foil and black paper?

I would have seen that as I spent many hours on this. It took many hours to get all that foil and black paper out.

Since that time. Since I emptied it out, the smell has been dropping steadily. At each relative temperature. At a low temp just after I blew it out. It dropped in smell.

When it went to -13 celcius, smell concentration jumped back up. But then within 4-5 days dropped dramatically. To where it is now. Which is a very mild smell. Almost not noticeable.

In the last 2.5 months. This is the best it has been.

The smell is not gone. But the fact that it is waning is a good indicator that I just need to let it burn off some more.

Why would I spend a large sum of money. Rip out a rad. Likely have to sand blast it to get rid of the coating that is off gassing. Put it back in. Hire a dry wall guy. This is a lot work and effort.

Why do all of this. When I can just leave it as it is, and let the heat slowly burn it off. Which is exactly what it has been doing.

The route you guys are advising is costly.

The route I am taking. Costs nothing. And will yield the same result.

There is no logical reason to rip something out and jump through all kinds of hoops when leaving it alone and waiting while it slowly but surely burns through the remaining scent is a cost free and viable option.

If the smell was not decreasing. Then the logical thing would be to follow the steps you gentlemen have recommended.

But thankfully it is waning. Very slowly. But consistently. If it spills into next winter and I have to crash on the sofa for another month of or so. That is not the end of the world.

Tinkering with a 70 year old radiator with pipework. And pretending that ripping it out carries no risk of creating other problems, as often happens when you tamper with old things. Well it is one thing to write about it and another to have to be in my shoes and deal with the consequences.

My choice, carries no consequences. No cost. Just some inconvenience on my part having to sleep on my sofa in the living room until the heat burns off the last 1-2% of what is left of that smell.

Hence my reluctance.

But I thank you all the same. As those are the correct steps to take if the smell was not disappearing or lessening. I would then have no choice but to take the steps recommended. Here there are signs of the smell slowly waning. Which tells me that I just need to be patient and let it take its course.

 

[Gasmk1]

i pointed out to you that if it was rodents then the smell would diminish over a short period, poste dsomething to this effect.

 

[John93]

Gasmk1 I recall your post and that you mentioned it is not cost effective. I agree with that.

Either way, this is not a dead rodent smell. The smell would be consistent with something that died and is being burned or heated.

This smell is more like a fume as I have said numerous times. It is very likely that the people who were there prior to me. Painted the rad and never turned it on. As that is how I got it. In a off state.

It's been off for over 10 years. JTS did correctly observe that there are multiple layers of paint. That is what I smell. A paint fume. Something off gassing. Not rodents or dead flesh.

The important or key point is that it has been decreasing since I used the compressed air and blew out everything including the silver foil and black water barrier. Although I can't say for sure why those materials would produce any smell at all. The observable sequence is that the concentration of that smell dropped from 70-80%, down to like 20-30%. And has dropped more and more.

To my understanding. However slowly. The smell is staring to get weaker and weaker. Given that, I would not want to do what JTS keeps telling me to do regarding the panel. I would only do that work if the smell was not decreasing. Where that would be the only option at that point. But so far, thank God, the smell is getting less. Hopefully with some patience and luck it will disappear for good. If not by the end of this season due to insufficient heat. Then next winter when the -30 degrees celcius will come back and the rad can burn through whatever remains.

Again my sincere thanks to everyone who has taken the time to write and give advice. I made this decision based on observable facts. If it were otherwise, I would act on the advice given here. So it is much appreciated gentlemen. All the best.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Hi John sorry I couldn't diagnose the smell that your getting but that is quite difficult from 3000 miles away,
It just beggars belief that this heater has not worked for 10 years and nothing was done about it sooner,
By your description you are living in a small 1 bed apartment , and I am assuming that other similar apartment's are next to you ?
Do you have your own heating system or is it a communal one ?
Do you pay a maintenance charge ?
Who is responsible for the up-keep of the building ?
Do you own or rent this apartment ?
Has any repairs ever been done to your heating system ?
Where is your Boiler located ?

 

[Gasmk1]

i dont think it is a dead rat, found this on a search "Unfortunately it may take three weeks or more to completely decompose. A professional may be contacted to break through and rebuild affected walls. This can be costly and not a viable option. Even after elimination of the source of dead rodent smell, the unsettling scent may linger for up to two weeks".
dont know if heating up would make a difference. i presume you are in USA, is it baseboard radiators, if so doesnt the cover lift of.
may be worth getting the plumber back.

my post re possibly not dead rodent

 

[jtsplumbing]

my post re possibly not dead rodent

Just cant understand why its took 10 years to sort out the heater ! and the guy sleeps in the lounge, small apartment with communal heating system maybe , if so someone must be libel for maintaining the system

 

[John93]

my post re possibly not dead rodent

Gasmk1, I recall this post. I wrote that I remember you sharing this.

 

[John93]

Hi John sorry I couldn't diagnose the smell that your getting but that is quite difficult from 3000 miles away,
It just beggars belief that this heater has not worked for 10 years and nothing was done about it sooner,
By your description you are living in a small 1 bed apartment , and I am assuming that other similar apartment's are next to you ?
Do you have your own heating system or is it a communal one ?
Do you pay a maintenance charge ?
Who is responsible for the up-keep of the building ?
Do you own or rent this apartment ?
Has any repairs ever been done to your heating system ?
Where is your Boiler located ?

JTS I understand not being able to diagnose the smell from that kind of distance. That makes sense.

The heater was not sorted for a very long and complicated set of reasons.

The boiler is in the basement. I do not have my own heating, but rather the heating system distributed through the entire building via the water rads. I am not aware of any repairs done to the bedroom rad. The living room rad has worked fine since I got this unit.

I just got off the phone with the fire department. They called me back, and told me that they do not have equipment to detect fumes emitted by paints. Their equipment is more geared towards hazardous materials. CO and even anthrax, etc. When I asked him who to contact regarding this, he was not sure.

He also mentioned that it could be a pinhole leak. But even to this I told him, if it was pinhole and heat was off, there would be a smell. No heat, no smell. So it cannot be a leak. He agreed.

So this brings me back to the 2 options we have been discussing. Either I get the building involved and if they do not want to do anything more with that rad. Then it will mean small claims court, etc. Win or lose it will cost money and time and a lot of effort. Or I just let it burn off, as it is slowly going away.

Letting it burn off seems like the cheapest and easiest route.

 

[jtsplumbing]

JTS I understand not being able to diagnose the smell from that kind of distance. That makes sense.

The heater was not sorted for a very long and complicated set of reasons.

The boiler is in the basement. I do not have my own heating, but rather the heating system distributed through the entire building via the water rads. I am not aware of any repairs done to the bedroom rad. The living room rad has worked fine since I got this unit.

I just got off the phone with the fire department. They called me back, and told me that they do not have equipment to detect fumes emitted by paints. Their equipment is more geared towards hazardous materials. CO and even anthrax, etc. When I asked him who to contact regarding this, he was not sure.

He also mentioned that it could be a pinhole leak. But even to this I told him, if it was pinhole and heat was off, there would be a smell. No heat, no smell. So it cannot be a leak. He agreed.

So this brings me back to the 2 options we have been discussing. Either I get the building involved and if they do not want to do anything more with that rad. Then it will mean small claims court, etc. Win or lose it will cost money and time and a lot of effort. Or I just let it burn off, as it is slowly going away.

Letting it burn off seems like the cheapest and easiest route.

So do you own the apartment or rent & who is responsible for maintaining the heating system ? Do you pay a maintenance fee ? some one must be responsible for the system ! if you pay towards the up-keep its down to them to sort out the problem why do you need to pay ?? something not quite right ! Have you made inquires about who maintains the apartments ??

 

[John93]

JTS as I wrote in my last response. It's a complicated scenario. The short answer is that the building is now responsible.

With the smell dissipating, it may not be worth the hassle to get that thing ripped out. It's not just an expense for the building. It's also a lot of time and effort spent on my part to co-ordinate.

At the rate its going the easiest way to go is to just let it burn it off. Simple. No cost. No headaches or potentially new problems created by tinkering with 70 year old pipes and components. Even if the building is responsible. Does not mean it will be an easy fix. Or an easy time for me. Quite the opposite. Even if they pick up the bill, it will mean a lot of work doing things that could create even bigger and newer problems.

The option that benefits both myself and this building is to let the rad burn off what is left of the smell. At this rate it should not take much longer.

 

[jtsplumbing]

So all these questions was a total waste of time because you don't intend doing anything ! just happy to sit back and hope the problem go's away, and carry on paying rent and do nothing, maybe in another 10 years you may have built up courage to complain that's if the building is still standing, Or of course your the owner/landlord who is to tight to spend out on repairs and just looking for a cheep fix

 

[John93]

JTS tell me the part about the rodents again. Where you made a blind assertion and then ignored my asking you several times what such a smell would smell like.

Your advice to rip out the panel when the smell is waning is not what I would call particularly apt.

Asserting something like rodents. And then ignoring and avoiding a question regarding what rodents would smell like is evasive.

As I said over and over. The smell improved drastically in the last 2-3 weeks. When I initially made the post the smell was stronger. Since then it has thankfully dropped.

If it did not, I would then have no choice but to open up the panel.

The situation here is complicated. And in no way is any of your business. All I was looking for was feedback on how to tackle this sort of fume or smell. Not a cross examination of my living conditions, what kind of fees I pay, etc. That is personal information and well outside the domain of relevance pertaining to you or my radiator. Insinuating that I lack courage or any other personality traits when you do not understand the dynamics here is not only inaccurate. But flat out blind assertion. Which takes me back to your rodent idea and subsequent dodge.

So please. Stick with things that are within the realm of your understanding and do not attempt to label or judge me or my situation. You have no foresight or authority to do so.

Incidentally it is because of plumbers like you that I am reluctant. I don't want to speak for all plumbers as that would be wrong. But a great number of them are crooks and prey on people's lack of knowledge and inexperience.

So you'll forgive me if I don't dive head first and follow the most costly and consequence laden advice from someone who can't even back up his assertions with evidence. Choosing instead to sidestep that question over and over. Never once answering it.

I think instead I will once again thank everyone for their help. Including you JTS. And just allow the heat to burn through what is left. All the best.

 

[jtsplumbing]

John I cant understand why then your asking these questions on a UK Plumbers forum, being as you live in Canada, Its not as though someone can just call round and take a look to give you the answers that you seek, From your description the whole system needs a complete overall , if that's the case and you along with other occupants of the building are paying a maintenance charge then you should be perusing them to get the problems rectified ! Do you have a similar forum in Canada where you can put your questions ? It would seem that we maintain our heating systems to a higher standard than they do in your location.

 

[John93]

JTS I was looking for a forum that has active participants. This one and another site looked active. I did not find similar sites in Canada.

I hear what you are saying. Some differences would exist. But all in all plumbing and heating should also be somewhat similar.

At the moment this is the only rad that was not working until the plumber opened up the valve. Now it is working fine, but slowly burning off whatever is off gassing. The smell has dropped significantly but is still faint and present. In the area of 3-5% concentration. This is much less than 50-70% concentration that was there before I used the compressor. It was very strong at that point and holding. Now it has dropped off by a very significant amount. This tells me that it is waning.

You said I am doing nothing. Avoiding thousands of dollars in repair. Labor. Time effort. Not exposing this old system to even more problems that can spring open. While patiently waiting for the smell to disappear. This is very far from doing nothing.

Also, I used compressed air and blew out everything out of that rad. That too was not nothing. I didn't exactly have those tools lying around.

I have done the most that I am physically capable of doing. Which includes research. Weeks of that. Communicating with people. These are all proactive steps towards a resolution.

Unfortunately. No one seems to know what it is. This includes the plumber that opened the valve. Spoke to the fire department yesterday. They cannot help to diagnose the smell. Everyone seems at a loss. It's something related to the paint. As it smells like a fume. The smell is a good indicator or clue in terms of what it can be. A leak would not stop smelling if the heat was off. Would also produce some noticeable stain at some point regardless of how small it was. But here again when the heat is off, the smell is gone. A leak would not stop smelling. Neither would mold. This is why I suspect the multiple layers of paint. Given the type of smell.

I agree that this whole system needs to be replaced. Hopefully I will have left this place before they do that.

That was one thing you noted which was spot on regarding multiple layers of paint. Short of removing the panel, sand blasting it, then repainting and remounting it. Is there any way to speed up whatever it is off gassing?

That is the million dollar question right now. How do I speed this up without tearing this thing open.

If you have experience with that or can relay anything along those lines, this would be very helpful. As that is where this situation has shifted to. It is in the final stages of disappearing. But it is slow. With the external temperatures fluctuating and increasing this month. I am not sure that the lowered heat intensity will get rid of the smell completely this season. Which means spilling over into next winter. And some more sofa time.

Either way JTS. I did mean what I said. I do thank you for your time and for trying to help. Sorry for not being able to clarify further with regards to the building. It's complicated. If I involve them it would mean taking this to small claims court. That is as much as I can say. I would take this course only as a last resort. Hence my focus on trying to get this rad to off gas on its own and without too much external tampering.

 

[jtsplumbing]

I know you don't want the expense of removing everything but I would have thought that just removing the metal cover could be something you may be able to do yourself or with some help from a friend, they are usely designed to be removed either they just clip on or just a couple of screws, is it possible that you could ask the plumber that first got the heater working how they are fixed ? its also possible that the paint used could be toxic, some paints are not suitable for use by heat

 

[Zippymark]

I haven't read all of this, but i painted a radiator in my house once with proper radiator paint and it gave of a slight smell when it was really hot for AGES, as in maybe 3-4 years.

 

[John93]

Greetings everyone,

I wanted to touch base and get some follow up advice on how to proceed. There have been some definite developments since I last wrote.

Firstly, please allow me to again express my sincere thanks to everyone who took the time to write and give feedback. It was very helpful and in many ways sobering. As the situation will require the work that JTS and others were alluding to.

To JTS. A massive thanks. I spoke to a couple of lawyers as the situation in my building is not pleasant. To make a long story short I have the legal ground to request the repair that JTS has been recommending all this time. I spoke with the plumber who opened the rad valve and got it working today. He confirmed that these older models do not have a cover which can be opened up. It is one solid piece. The newer panel will be the one JTS was referencing which can be opened and cleaned. As for sand blasting it may be more expensive. Also the plumber mentioned something about the grill on the inside being individuated units and sand blasting would not get everything off? Not sure on that one.

Either way. What JTS has told me, is the line I am pursuing. I had to make contact with the lawyers to ensure I had the correct legal ground. And from there the next step is to deal with the building's management and transmit this info to them. They may or may not wish to take it to court. It would be to their detriment. But the people managing this property are not altogether rational. So will need to see how this plays out.

I have some follow up questions.

There was some mention about black bead. A couple of times in this thread people mentioned someone installed black bead. What does this term mean? Is black bead the black paper moisture barrier? Or is black bead some other part of the rad?

I am concerned about the rad because I inadvertently blew out all the black paper which is moisture barrier as JTS pointed out. Along with the silver foil.

Does a lack of a moisture barrier present any problems in terms of a smell? Meaning if I only replace the panel and not put in new foil and black paper, can this cause a smell? As I do believe it smells a bit damp. But I can be wrong.

When they install the new panel, can they at that point install a new moisture barrier and then place that silver foil in front? Or are moisture barriers not used in the new cast iron base board rads?

Did I damage the rad by removing the black paper moisture barrier/silver foil? Do they need to rip out the back part and reinstall the entire thing or just replace the panel? I am not sure what is producing that smell. Most likely it is the several layers of paint. But what if they sprayed something into the interior of the rad? Meaning that the panel will get replaced, but when heated the interior enclosure could produce a smell?

Any ideas gentlemen?

 

[jtsplumbing]

Well John it seems things are progressing, and again we are only making assumptions as to what is happening, until that complete heater is removed you wont be able to tell the extent of any damage or rot that has taken place, just very small drip over a period of time can cause a great amount of damage and involve extensive repair work, sometimes requiring the replacement of complete sections of walls & flooring, in our job we come across things like this involving small leaks & drips that can require major repairs running into thousands and requiring Builders, Electrician's etc.. make sure that you keep lots of photos of what is happening .

 

[John93]

Hi JTS. I agree I have taken some solid steps towards getting this resolved. I recall everything you advised and find that I am now more or less following this path. As the smell is not going away and you were right in that legally this is management's problem.

JTS I am not clear about what black bead is. And what impact if any removing the water barrier may have?

When you install new rads, do you typically install a new water barrier with it?

The rot you are referring to. Can that be the wood interior and not the panel? My concern is that they will replace the panel and not the wood housing. And the smell may not be gone. Is this something you have come across?

I'm not sure whether to inform the plumber that I blew out that water barrier black material or not?

I asked the plumber if they replace the entire rad or just the panel. He said only the panel. But if the wood or interior is producing a smell how do we troubleshoot this? Meaning when or how would you know to gut the entire thing and put in a new wood backing interior housing for the panel?

Again thank you for your help. I will definitely take photos of everything. That is solid advice. Very much appreciated.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Hi John I think the (Bead) that is being referred to is just the wooden beading that has been put around the outside edge of the metal panel,
our systems are somewhat different than yours and the type of heat emitters that you have more often than not got used in commercial buildings we tend to use flat panel radiators in homes, I'm assuming the smell is of rotting wood ! so replacing the metal panel will make no difference.
Once the cover of this heater has been removed then it will possible to see the extent of any damage that has been caused, This will result in the heater having to be removed so that the extent of any water damage can be assessed, Not knowing to what extent Plumbers get involved with other trades in Canada Your plumber may not have the knowledge or experience to assess what is going on, (if this was the UK then the heater would be left exposed until a professional Carpenter / Builder could examine the area,) as I pointed out B4 small drips / Leaks over a period of time can cause unbelievable extensive damage, Keep a good record of what is transpiring (Times of visits etc.) maybe have a witness present when things are being done, Photos/Videos are always useful evidence, even voice recordings if they are excepted in any legal proceedings that may take place.

 

[John93]

I think I understand JTS. The smell when the heat is up really high is of a paint or noxious fume. But if you're saying it could be the wood that has rotted. This is certainly possible. Ok. Will take this in the sequence you've shared here. First get the panel off. Which includes the surrounding wood bead around the outside of the panel. And then let the plumber or perhaps also contact a carpenter/builder as you mentioned. To assess the damage accurately. I will proceed this way. Thank you JTS. Very kind of you and others here to help with this issue. I will keep photo records as advised.

Do you guys in the UK apply that same black paper water barrier? With new rads? Or was that only used with the older ones?

Can the radiator operate without this moisture barrier? I am wondering if having removed it by compressed air. That now this exposes the wood interior to more heat and can this cause that wood to smell when heated? The initial noxious smell was there before I blew out the foil and black moisture barrier. But having done that now, I wonder if just replacing the panel without putting new water barrier will be safe for the interior of that rad which is wood and some dry wall here and there.

 

[Gasmk1]

We don't fit that style of radiator ours tend to be large panel types or the upmarket designer rads even the school type (cast iron) our houses tend to be bricks and mortar so we don't have to fit anything behind them they are mounted on the wall

 

[John93]

Gasmk1 I have seen youtube vids of these kinds of radiators. They are really nice and sleek. Easily removed and cleaned. Hopefully the new radiator panel replacement will be easier to maintain and clean over the long run.

My point of concern now is regarding the black water barrier which was blown out when I used compressed air. If this needs to be replaced or if it affects the rad or can cause a smell?

The other issue is how to know if the wood behind the rad needs to be replaced? JTS mentioned wood rot. But if we open the panel and see the wood is fine. Replace the panel and then find out later the smell is still there due to something from the interior of the radiator, the inner portion which is mostly wood and dry wall, etc. What then? How do we determine when to gut the entire enclave, or whether it is panel only that is causing the smell? I would rather find out what the source of the smell is, before anything is replaced.

 

[John93]

Can't seem to get a response about the moisture barrier/black paper backing and whether its removal harms the operation of the rad in any way?

I blew out the radiator with compressed air. All the silver foil and black paper moisture barrier were forced out. Now it's just the rad panel and the interior which is wood and some gaps where drywall can be seen.

How do I determine if only the panel needs to be replaced? Or whether the entire wood interior be gutted and redone? Who can make this determination or assessment?

Thank you gentlemen. My apologies if the question seems mundane or obvious. My concern is the plumber may replace the panel and the smell doesn't go away. Either because the wood interior is causing the smell or if I caused a problem by removing the moisture barrier and silver foil.

 

[jtsplumbing]

The Black moisture barrier paper will not affect the operation of the heater, it is to stop any ingress of damp, and is advisable to have it replaced its is there for a reason and needs to be replaced! once panel is removed you need someone with the necessary equipment to test for damp/rot that may be a contractor , Carpenter, or even your local building control or your insurance company , don't let them just replace the panel all that is doing is covering up the problem it will need proper professional investigation , Damp/Rot doesn't go away it gets worse, its one of the problems with timber structures, and needs to be addressed ASAP.

 

[John93]

JTS I thank you kindly for all of your feedback and advice. Please know I keep track of everything and will follow those steps exactly. I don't think there is wood rot as that would have smelled in the years prior. But I do agree that this needs to be replaced and inspected first. So it does appear that I mucked this up and will require replacement of this moisture barrier. However,
before I did anything whatsoever, with the moisture barrier in place and the silver foil as well. It was off gassing something very noxious, which had a paint or fume smell. That was there prior to any interaction on my part.

JTS as this is something that I have to communicate to my building to co-ordinate the repair. And it may have to go to court. Do you recommend that I be open about the fact that I used compressed air and blew out the moisture barrier? Or is it best to not make any mention? I prefer to be honest but the people running this building are not exactly decent. They are the kind who would use anything against me to prevent incurring an expense. I have plans to leave this building due to the kind of people running and managing the property. Very underhanded and deceitful.

I lack experience with these sort of matters. So anything you can provide would be of tremendous help.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Treat them in the same way as they treat you, no witness to using air line so deny all knowledge sounds like you have untrustworthy people running your building, maybe the sooner you leave the better.

 

[John93]

JTS my thoughts exactly. After I get this radiator sorted. I think within the next year or so, I will relocate. As the people who run this place are crooked and corrupt. I know there are problems any place one goes. But here, the worst kinds of characters are making decisions. And a lot of my neighbors have similar views and in some cases worse.

Thankfully no other major repairs other than the rad. Will do my best to get everything dealt with. So that at least the people who come in after me, will not have the headache of having to deal with this as I do now.

JTS you're a good man. Really appreciate your help and that of everyone else who responded. It has helped me to navigate and kept me on the right track. You guys in the UK are a cut above the rest. That much is clear to me.

 

[Stigster]

On the subject of very minor leaks causing ridiculous amounts of damage (I have a friend who had £200,000 of damage cause by a long term slow leak last year, nothing to do with me fortunately!) I'd much rather have a pipe blow clean off and make an immediate mess that can be fixed and damage seen than a misting spray going under a floorboard for 6 months. In OP's case, as long as your health is not affected by damp problems, I would be at least happy that if a slow leak is the problem, it is the building owners problem to deal with and I hope you can move on. I can see this has been a stressful time for you so hope you get sorted one way or another.

Good luck.

 

[John93]

Thank you Stigster. Trying to get this worked out now. The property management will replace the rad.

I do have a new problem and wonder if anyone can offer a solution.

Management sent out a plumber to shut off the rad valve in order to allow me to use the bedroom again. The plumber claims that it is in the closed position. But the rad is emitting a low amount of heat.

I have an acquaintance who does plumbing and he came by to confirm whether this plumber did in fact shut it off completely. It was true the 1st plumber had closed all the way. 2nd plumber opened the valve then closed it back again. And now it is letting out more heat than when the 1st plumber tried to shut it off.

It seems that the valve is starting to go. And may require replacement.

Is there any way to shut this valve off for now? For example. Would turning it into the open position slowly. Letting it heat up for a couple of hours, then slowly turning it back into closed have any effect on that valve to shut it off? Or is it just very cut and dry meaning if the valve no longer shuts off completely it is a sign that it is damaged?

I guess I am concerned that this rad valve used to close completely. Then went to slight heat emitted after 1st plumber closed it. And now it is emitting more heat since my friend who is a plumber did a slight turn to open the valve then shut it back off. This progression seems to indicate more and and more heat is being let off in the closed position.

If I try anything can it possibly spring a leak? My friend said it is brass on brass. I don't know what may be shot in the valve. I wonder if there is any kind of work around so that I can at least shut the rad down until they replace it.

Also a 2nd question. When plumbers replace rads, would a new rad necessitate a new rad valve as well? Do those get installed together, or would the new rad be fitted into the old valve? If so then perhaps a valve replacement would be a good idea.

Thank you gentlemen, in advance.

 

[Gasmk1]

it has either pitted on the valve or some debris is stopping the valve shutting fully you can try turning it on and off but it may have failed. they will probbaly have to change the valve when they re-new the radiator.

 

[John93]

Thank you Gasmk1. Is there any danger of this valve springing a leak if I turn it on, then back off if that valve is failing?

I see that it has gone from being able to be shut off. To then emitting a low heat, and 2nd time turned off the heat is low but higher than the 1st time it was turned off. Meaning it seems to emit more heat with every successive turn of that valve after it is put in the closed position.

 

[John93]

The Black moisture barrier paper will not affect the operation of the heater, it is to stop any ingress of damp, and is advisable to have it replaced its is there for a reason and needs to be replaced! once panel is removed you need someone with the necessary equipment to test for damp/rot that may be a contractor , Carpenter, or even your local building control or your insurance company , don't let them just replace the panel all that is doing is covering up the problem it will need proper professional investigation , Damp/Rot doesn't go away it gets worse, its one of the problems with timber structures, and needs to be addressed ASAP.

Greetings everyone,

I have a question regarding which type of moisture barrier to use behind this base board water rad. JTS mentioned that the black paper moisture barrier needs to be replaced. I have had 3 plumbers who do heating come out and give quotes. For some reason none of them are aware of the moisture barrier. I have one plumber who says the only thing they use here is a paper with a reflective surface on one side and card board on the back. He claims it is dual purpose. I don't think he is telling me the truth. As the moisture barrier I had in my rad before I blew it out, was a combination of silver foil, and behind it black paper which acted as a moisture barrier. But werer separate sheets. Could someone provide feedback in terms of what the correct moisture barrier to use for this kind of base board water rad that I have? I do notice more dampness in that room now that there is no moisture barrier. The only plumber who knows anything claims the only one he could find was this card board reflector, which is silver on one side and paper on the back. But I am not confident that this will act as a moisture barrier. Thank you in advance.

 

[John93]

Gentlemen,

I found this material posted on another site. It is a double reflective insulation. That apparently acts as a barrier as well as reflecting the heat outwards.

Do you guys recommend this? Or is there a better or more suitable product out there that I can use or point out to the plumber so he can install it?

Reflectix 16 in. x 100 ft. Double Reflective Insulation with Staple Tab-ST16100 - The Home Depot

 

[Gasmk1]

what makes you think it was a vapour barrier if it was it would be all the way up behind the plaster, try a builder rather than a plumber to ascertain what it was also is there not some behind one of your other radiators

 

[John93]

Hi Gasmk1,

As a point of reference I am using both what came out when I blew out the bedroom rad. And also what is currently present in the living room rad which is in tact and was not blown out. The living room rad has a silver sheet of foil. And behind this a piece of black cardboard paper. JTS said this is a moisture barrier. The link I provided above to the home depot lists a reflective insulation. Some people apparently use this in the back side of the recess where the base board rad fits.

You're right in that a moisture barrier would be all the way in the wall. But jts said this black paper served a functional purpose to prevent dampness from getting in. And to make sure this was replaced when the rad was installed.

My issue is that the plumber is saying to just use a cardboard silver reflector to push out the heat. I am concerned this is will not keep dampness out. The reflective insulation I found at home depot seems to act as both a reflector and barrier. I'll add the link again. Any thoughts in terms of which is best to use? A cardboard silver reflector, or the silver insulation foam I found?

Reflectix 16 in. x 100 ft. Double Reflective Insulation with Staple Tab-ST16100 - The Home Depot

 

[jtsplumbing]

I would use the second one, as you are a Timber frame building, you need to keep the heat in as well as keeping the moisture out, the reflective foil is ok if radiator is mounted on a outside wall, but then it depends on the level of insulation in the building, and from your past posts it doesn't sound if it is very good.

 

[John93]

I would use the second one, as you are a Timber frame building, you need to keep the heat in as well as keeping the moisture out, the reflective foil is ok if radiator is mounted on a outside wall, but then it depends on the level of insulation in the building, and from your past posts it doesn't sound if it is very good.

Hi jts. Good to hear from you. I went ahead and made contact with a builder's forum. Gasmk1 said to get a builder involved. Builder forum made sense. One person there identified this black paper as tar paper.

I saw some vids where they use this in basements and other applications. So what you initially said about keeping moisture out. This seems to be the exact reason behind putting this tar paper back there. I will include a pic, and if someone can confirm whether this is tar paper. It will make things easier to then apply the same materials that were there to begin with.

jts one thing I did notice since I removed the tar paper and silver foil. Is now that the heat is mostly off. That bedroom is more humid than the rest of the apartment. It was not this humid prior to my removing this tar paper during previous years. When the heat was on, no change in humidity. But with the heat off, it seems humidity is a factor now as it is basically an exposed cavity with no barrier.

The building has agreed to go ahead with replacing the rad. They are waiting for the heat to be completely shut down, as they still have it on for night time. So within 1-2 weeks we should be able to go ahead with the replacement rad. If I know the materials and can name them. I can then communicate this to the plumber doing the rad replacement. Some plumbers I spoke to did not want to deal with that at all and said they are only there to replace the rad.

So if it is just tar paper. I can buy this and staple it on the backside of the rad. As for a reflector. I saw some reflective materials that are sold at home depot and online. I guess the best ones would be something without a glue or adhesive so that does not give off any smell.

Am I on the right track here? I recall what you said jts to take a good look inside once the panel is off. They will be doing that for sure. But if that is clear, I would think the next step would be to duplicate the materials used prior to my removing them. Which seems to be tar paper, and then a silver foil to act as a reflector.

I wonder why no one here identified this black paper as tar paper? Would have made things much easier knowing what the material actually is and then procuring it. Thankfully the builder's forum identified it, so I have some logical path to follow. Plus all the pointers I got here from jts and gasmk1 and others.

 

[Gasmk1]

thats why i said get a builder involved. reason no one said tar paper is because it is something we dont use or have its an american/canadian thing. just put back what was there in the first place.Novia Reflex Reflective Breather Membrane probably the modern equivalent

 

[John93]

Thanks for the link and viable alternative Gasmk1. Much appreciated.

If you've worked with this material before, do you know if it can be used inside of a rad? I imagine it can stand up to some very strong heat if used in roofing. But I think rad temp may be higher. My main concern being no emission of any smells.

Also, what is the best way to mount that material inside? Staples or screws? I see double sided tape on a lot of sites. But with this being a radiator, tape or glue probably are not suitable.

 

[Gasmk1]

no necer used so i have no idea.

 

[John93]

Greetings gentlemen,

I have a significant update. A plumber came out today and replaced my old cast iron baseboard rad with a newer slant/finn 30 model. It is much smaller than the old rad, and I have some concerns as to whether it will be strong enough to heat that room sufficiently.

I called the plumber and asked why he didn't install a model that was larger? The slant/finn 80? He said there would not be any increase in btu's as the pipe is only 1/4". I am not sure if he is being honest or just tried to install the cheapest model to pocket more cash. Claims there would not be any increase in BTU's given the pipe size.

This is a link to the slant/finn 30 manufacturer. They have the specs there. I measured the inside of this new rad, and it is a pipe with fins running along the entire length. I measured 5.5 feet from fin to fin.

Fine/Line 30 Baseboard

Do you gentlemen know if this type of rad would be strong enough to heat a room that is 10 feet wide by 11 feet long. 8 foot high ceiling. Bedroom with a double frame window, size 57"x57". Only one exterior wall.

I used a the slant/finn calculator they have on one site, and it said I require 8 feet. This guy only put in 5.5 feet of actual fins, which would emit heat.

I will contact him tomorrow. But he is not entirely keen on my questions, and I can't shake the feeling that this guy may have installed the cheapest rad, and did not get the sizing right for the proper BTU's.

Would really appreciate some feedback at this point. So much work has gone into arranging this with my building. I had plumbers come out. And now this guy, who claims has done many high rises here in Toronto. I am very suspicious as this new rad is much small and I can't see it being as strong as the cast iron base board panel that came out. I understand that he does many rad replacements. I could see how efficiently he worked. Highly skilled. So it stands to reason that he would put the right size in, if only to avoid call backs or complaints of insufficient heat. I do have that in mind. And yet I wonder how a smaller rad, can produce the same heat that my old rad produced.

I really hope this guy this did not screw me over. JTS had expressed some concerns about what may be behind that panel. Panel came off, nothing was in there. The wood backing was in very good shape. No rot of any kind. So that part is fine. He mounted this new rad quite nicely and the piping and fitting work was excellent. I just really have serious concerns about the output of this slant/finn 30 model , and whether it will heat a room 10x11. 8 feet high.

Thank you gentlemen,

 

[gmartine]

Seems low for that size of room but depends what else is on the circuit and the heat loss calculations if any were done but I'd have thought 1/4 inch could carry 900btu or 260w which is the output of the 8ft, your 5.5 ft rad is obviously rated at a lot less (approx 175W).

 

[John93]

Thanks for replying gmartine. I agree that based on all the online calculators and also some calls I made to a few plumbers. The consensus is that 5'5" is not enough.

When I contacted the plumber who did the installation, to ask how he calculated the rad size, he blew up on me and started to yell and insult me.

I did not want to escalate the matter as I did not have a clear picture of what needs to happen. Did not want to burn any bridges preemptively.

If I report this to the building, they may or may not side with me. And they may or may not go after him legally. The management here are one of the reasons I wish to leave in the near future. They are part of the problem and have repeatedly screwed me over on this rad issue, until I got a lawyer involved.

I would go after him, but the building paid for the rad replacement. And I am not sure what the best course of action is. As they may decide to see how much heat it actually outputs. Before taking any sort of action.

Any advice from anyone who has been through something similar? Should I press the matter? Or wait until winter to see if the room will be at a reasonable temperature?

Would the room be unbearable? The thing should put out some level of heat even at 5'5". I wonder if opening up the valves to fully open, could help? Other factors here. Double pane windows. Good insulation. One outside facing wall. Any chance this could be passable?

When the plumber blew up and started to insult me. He threatened that he would just come by and remove everything and not take any money. But the pipes are so old and brittle, the last thing I want is for this guy to come back in an angry state, to either change the rad to a stronger model or tamper with the valves. Which he did a very good job in handling. It's just a bad situation. I trusted that this guy would have enough sense to replace the rad with an equivalent model. He swindled me and now to fix his error, I literally have to go to war and involve all kinds of people in this building. Not sure what the wisest approach may be.

 

[gmartine]

You're possibly over-reacting as the length of this thread indicates, you didn't pay so you really haven't been swindled. Building management should have ensured the correct size radiator was installed and if it isn't you need to tell them so contact your lawyer if you can't deal with them face to face. If they fail to act you may need an official report saying the radiator is undersized (if it is) and take it further. If the original installer needs to be called back then do so, his mood and the condition of the pipework should not be your concern if he's made a mistake or knowingly undersized the radiator.

 

[John93]

Thanks again gmartine. I went ahead and advised the building what the plumber has done. I relayed all the pertinent points. Hopefully they will investigate and take corrective measures to have this rad replaced.

If they decide to not replace it, and instead see how much heat will actually be generated. Do you have some rough idea of what temperatures I can expect? The room is well insulated. Double pane windows. Rooms above and below are heated. There is carpet in that bedroom.

Is there any chance that a 5'5" rad can heat 110 square feet? I don't need the room to be perfect. Just some reasonable temperature would suffice.

 

[MARTIN LISTER]

Hydrogen sulphide gas venting from inside the radiator?

 

[John93]

Martin,

I don't think the old rad was venting sulphide gas. If you look at the pics in the thread. Who ever painted the rad before I bought this place, used multiple layers. And it appears like the top layers have formed a kind of seal, where the layer closest to the rad is off gassing, but the now hardened multiple layers surrounding it, are sealing it in and not really letting it burn off.

To Gmartin. I got screwed because this is a co-op property. Meaning I am the owner of this unit. The building is supposed to replace the rad. But now that this guy has used insufficient length, my main concern is not enough heat and down the road, difficulty selling this unit. Yes they paid for it. But it does not appear like they are going to go after this plumber to get him to put in the correct rad.

My question went out to any plumbers who may be able to predict if 5'5" will sufficiently heat a room that is well insulated. Heated rooms above and below. Double pane windows. Carpet. I think the building wants to see how much heat will actually be produced. I was not over reacting. I have had to get a lawyer involved just to get the building to replace the rad. They were supposed to replace it way back in 2014. Dropped it without any warning. It is only when I acted on the advice that JTS gave me, getting a lawyer involved, that the building finally took action. But the plumber screwed up. And now it is uncertain whether 5'5" will produce enough heat to comfortably use that space.

Not only did the plumber knowingly use the wrong rad to pocket more money for himself. But the building is not exactly on my side, and will not likely go after this guy. Which means I will have to go after them.

I don't know if they have co-ops in the UK. But moving into this kind of arrangement was a huge mistake. I regret it, and am trying to get the rad sorted so as to sell it and move out. But the problems persist. As if the plumber is not enough of a pain, the building does not want to do what is called for which is to get this guy to replace the rad with the correct model.

So yes, while I did not pay for it. The potentially insufficient rad, may affect my ability to sell this unit, and that is definitely screwing me over. To which there is no over reaction. Only an attempt to equalize and set right what has been misdone.

To anyone not familiar with co-ops. There is a board of directors. They are supposed to be chosen by the rest of the shareholders. But in some cases, as in this building, the majority of the owners do not want the burden of being on the board. And so the people who are left over and put to that task, are not only under qualified, but ill tempered and just generally the bottom of the barrel. These kinds of people can sometimes worm their way into positions of authority or decision making. And that is what has happened here, and it is the #1 reason I want out. The rad is the only thing that requires attention, as I do not want to do to the new owners what the previous owner did to me, which was sell me a unit with a rad that was off gassing.

Of course the obvious answer is to wait and see what the rad outputs. But my question was geared towards anyone who may have experience with this sort of thing and perhaps can relay some idea as to what I can expect.