Radiator emitting strong odor when heat goes up

[John93]

JTS tell me the part about the rodents again. Where you made a blind assertion and then ignored my asking you several times what such a smell would smell like.

Your advice to rip out the panel when the smell is waning is not what I would call particularly apt.

Asserting something like rodents. And then ignoring and avoiding a question regarding what rodents would smell like is evasive.

As I said over and over. The smell improved drastically in the last 2-3 weeks. When I initially made the post the smell was stronger. Since then it has thankfully dropped.

If it did not, I would then have no choice but to open up the panel.

The situation here is complicated. And in no way is any of your business. All I was looking for was feedback on how to tackle this sort of fume or smell. Not a cross examination of my living conditions, what kind of fees I pay, etc. That is personal information and well outside the domain of relevance pertaining to you or my radiator. Insinuating that I lack courage or any other personality traits when you do not understand the dynamics here is not only inaccurate. But flat out blind assertion. Which takes me back to your rodent idea and subsequent dodge.

So please. Stick with things that are within the realm of your understanding and do not attempt to label or judge me or my situation. You have no foresight or authority to do so.

Incidentally it is because of plumbers like you that I am reluctant. I don't want to speak for all plumbers as that would be wrong. But a great number of them are crooks and prey on people's lack of knowledge and inexperience.

So you'll forgive me if I don't dive head first and follow the most costly and consequence laden advice from someone who can't even back up his assertions with evidence. Choosing instead to sidestep that question over and over. Never once answering it.

I think instead I will once again thank everyone for their help. Including you JTS. And just allow the heat to burn through what is left. All the best.

 

[jtsplumbing]

John I cant understand why then your asking these questions on a UK Plumbers forum, being as you live in Canada, Its not as though someone can just call round and take a look to give you the answers that you seek, From your description the whole system needs a complete overall , if that's the case and you along with other occupants of the building are paying a maintenance charge then you should be perusing them to get the problems rectified ! Do you have a similar forum in Canada where you can put your questions ? It would seem that we maintain our heating systems to a higher standard than they do in your location.

 

[John93]

JTS I was looking for a forum that has active participants. This one and another site looked active. I did not find similar sites in Canada.

I hear what you are saying. Some differences would exist. But all in all plumbing and heating should also be somewhat similar.

At the moment this is the only rad that was not working until the plumber opened up the valve. Now it is working fine, but slowly burning off whatever is off gassing. The smell has dropped significantly but is still faint and present. In the area of 3-5% concentration. This is much less than 50-70% concentration that was there before I used the compressor. It was very strong at that point and holding. Now it has dropped off by a very significant amount. This tells me that it is waning.

You said I am doing nothing. Avoiding thousands of dollars in repair. Labor. Time effort. Not exposing this old system to even more problems that can spring open. While patiently waiting for the smell to disappear. This is very far from doing nothing.

Also, I used compressed air and blew out everything out of that rad. That too was not nothing. I didn't exactly have those tools lying around.

I have done the most that I am physically capable of doing. Which includes research. Weeks of that. Communicating with people. These are all proactive steps towards a resolution.

Unfortunately. No one seems to know what it is. This includes the plumber that opened the valve. Spoke to the fire department yesterday. They cannot help to diagnose the smell. Everyone seems at a loss. It's something related to the paint. As it smells like a fume. The smell is a good indicator or clue in terms of what it can be. A leak would not stop smelling if the heat was off. Would also produce some noticeable stain at some point regardless of how small it was. But here again when the heat is off, the smell is gone. A leak would not stop smelling. Neither would mold. This is why I suspect the multiple layers of paint. Given the type of smell.

I agree that this whole system needs to be replaced. Hopefully I will have left this place before they do that.

That was one thing you noted which was spot on regarding multiple layers of paint. Short of removing the panel, sand blasting it, then repainting and remounting it. Is there any way to speed up whatever it is off gassing?

That is the million dollar question right now. How do I speed this up without tearing this thing open.

If you have experience with that or can relay anything along those lines, this would be very helpful. As that is where this situation has shifted to. It is in the final stages of disappearing. But it is slow. With the external temperatures fluctuating and increasing this month. I am not sure that the lowered heat intensity will get rid of the smell completely this season. Which means spilling over into next winter. And some more sofa time.

Either way JTS. I did mean what I said. I do thank you for your time and for trying to help. Sorry for not being able to clarify further with regards to the building. It's complicated. If I involve them it would mean taking this to small claims court. That is as much as I can say. I would take this course only as a last resort. Hence my focus on trying to get this rad to off gas on its own and without too much external tampering.

 

[jtsplumbing]

I know you don't want the expense of removing everything but I would have thought that just removing the metal cover could be something you may be able to do yourself or with some help from a friend, they are usely designed to be removed either they just clip on or just a couple of screws, is it possible that you could ask the plumber that first got the heater working how they are fixed ? its also possible that the paint used could be toxic, some paints are not suitable for use by heat

 

[Zippymark]

I haven't read all of this, but i painted a radiator in my house once with proper radiator paint and it gave of a slight smell when it was really hot for AGES, as in maybe 3-4 years.

 

[John93]

Greetings everyone,

I wanted to touch base and get some follow up advice on how to proceed. There have been some definite developments since I last wrote.

Firstly, please allow me to again express my sincere thanks to everyone who took the time to write and give feedback. It was very helpful and in many ways sobering. As the situation will require the work that JTS and others were alluding to.

To JTS. A massive thanks. I spoke to a couple of lawyers as the situation in my building is not pleasant. To make a long story short I have the legal ground to request the repair that JTS has been recommending all this time. I spoke with the plumber who opened the rad valve and got it working today. He confirmed that these older models do not have a cover which can be opened up. It is one solid piece. The newer panel will be the one JTS was referencing which can be opened and cleaned. As for sand blasting it may be more expensive. Also the plumber mentioned something about the grill on the inside being individuated units and sand blasting would not get everything off? Not sure on that one.

Either way. What JTS has told me, is the line I am pursuing. I had to make contact with the lawyers to ensure I had the correct legal ground. And from there the next step is to deal with the building's management and transmit this info to them. They may or may not wish to take it to court. It would be to their detriment. But the people managing this property are not altogether rational. So will need to see how this plays out.

I have some follow up questions.

There was some mention about black bead. A couple of times in this thread people mentioned someone installed black bead. What does this term mean? Is black bead the black paper moisture barrier? Or is black bead some other part of the rad?

I am concerned about the rad because I inadvertently blew out all the black paper which is moisture barrier as JTS pointed out. Along with the silver foil.

Does a lack of a moisture barrier present any problems in terms of a smell? Meaning if I only replace the panel and not put in new foil and black paper, can this cause a smell? As I do believe it smells a bit damp. But I can be wrong.

When they install the new panel, can they at that point install a new moisture barrier and then place that silver foil in front? Or are moisture barriers not used in the new cast iron base board rads?

Did I damage the rad by removing the black paper moisture barrier/silver foil? Do they need to rip out the back part and reinstall the entire thing or just replace the panel? I am not sure what is producing that smell. Most likely it is the several layers of paint. But what if they sprayed something into the interior of the rad? Meaning that the panel will get replaced, but when heated the interior enclosure could produce a smell?

Any ideas gentlemen?

 

[jtsplumbing]

Well John it seems things are progressing, and again we are only making assumptions as to what is happening, until that complete heater is removed you wont be able to tell the extent of any damage or rot that has taken place, just very small drip over a period of time can cause a great amount of damage and involve extensive repair work, sometimes requiring the replacement of complete sections of walls & flooring, in our job we come across things like this involving small leaks & drips that can require major repairs running into thousands and requiring Builders, Electrician's etc.. make sure that you keep lots of photos of what is happening .

 

[John93]

Hi JTS. I agree I have taken some solid steps towards getting this resolved. I recall everything you advised and find that I am now more or less following this path. As the smell is not going away and you were right in that legally this is management's problem.

JTS I am not clear about what black bead is. And what impact if any removing the water barrier may have?

When you install new rads, do you typically install a new water barrier with it?

The rot you are referring to. Can that be the wood interior and not the panel? My concern is that they will replace the panel and not the wood housing. And the smell may not be gone. Is this something you have come across?

I'm not sure whether to inform the plumber that I blew out that water barrier black material or not?

I asked the plumber if they replace the entire rad or just the panel. He said only the panel. But if the wood or interior is producing a smell how do we troubleshoot this? Meaning when or how would you know to gut the entire thing and put in a new wood backing interior housing for the panel?

Again thank you for your help. I will definitely take photos of everything. That is solid advice. Very much appreciated.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Hi John I think the (Bead) that is being referred to is just the wooden beading that has been put around the outside edge of the metal panel,
our systems are somewhat different than yours and the type of heat emitters that you have more often than not got used in commercial buildings we tend to use flat panel radiators in homes, I'm assuming the smell is of rotting wood ! so replacing the metal panel will make no difference.
Once the cover of this heater has been removed then it will possible to see the extent of any damage that has been caused, This will result in the heater having to be removed so that the extent of any water damage can be assessed, Not knowing to what extent Plumbers get involved with other trades in Canada Your plumber may not have the knowledge or experience to assess what is going on, (if this was the UK then the heater would be left exposed until a professional Carpenter / Builder could examine the area,) as I pointed out B4 small drips / Leaks over a period of time can cause unbelievable extensive damage, Keep a good record of what is transpiring (Times of visits etc.) maybe have a witness present when things are being done, Photos/Videos are always useful evidence, even voice recordings if they are excepted in any legal proceedings that may take place.

 

[John93]

I think I understand JTS. The smell when the heat is up really high is of a paint or noxious fume. But if you're saying it could be the wood that has rotted. This is certainly possible. Ok. Will take this in the sequence you've shared here. First get the panel off. Which includes the surrounding wood bead around the outside of the panel. And then let the plumber or perhaps also contact a carpenter/builder as you mentioned. To assess the damage accurately. I will proceed this way. Thank you JTS. Very kind of you and others here to help with this issue. I will keep photo records as advised.

Do you guys in the UK apply that same black paper water barrier? With new rads? Or was that only used with the older ones?

Can the radiator operate without this moisture barrier? I am wondering if having removed it by compressed air. That now this exposes the wood interior to more heat and can this cause that wood to smell when heated? The initial noxious smell was there before I blew out the foil and black moisture barrier. But having done that now, I wonder if just replacing the panel without putting new water barrier will be safe for the interior of that rad which is wood and some dry wall here and there.

 

[Gasmk1]

We don't fit that style of radiator ours tend to be large panel types or the upmarket designer rads even the school type (cast iron) our houses tend to be bricks and mortar so we don't have to fit anything behind them they are mounted on the wall

 

[John93]

Gasmk1 I have seen youtube vids of these kinds of radiators. They are really nice and sleek. Easily removed and cleaned. Hopefully the new radiator panel replacement will be easier to maintain and clean over the long run.

My point of concern now is regarding the black water barrier which was blown out when I used compressed air. If this needs to be replaced or if it affects the rad or can cause a smell?

The other issue is how to know if the wood behind the rad needs to be replaced? JTS mentioned wood rot. But if we open the panel and see the wood is fine. Replace the panel and then find out later the smell is still there due to something from the interior of the radiator, the inner portion which is mostly wood and dry wall, etc. What then? How do we determine when to gut the entire enclave, or whether it is panel only that is causing the smell? I would rather find out what the source of the smell is, before anything is replaced.

 

[John93]

Can't seem to get a response about the moisture barrier/black paper backing and whether its removal harms the operation of the rad in any way?

I blew out the radiator with compressed air. All the silver foil and black paper moisture barrier were forced out. Now it's just the rad panel and the interior which is wood and some gaps where drywall can be seen.

How do I determine if only the panel needs to be replaced? Or whether the entire wood interior be gutted and redone? Who can make this determination or assessment?

Thank you gentlemen. My apologies if the question seems mundane or obvious. My concern is the plumber may replace the panel and the smell doesn't go away. Either because the wood interior is causing the smell or if I caused a problem by removing the moisture barrier and silver foil.

 

[jtsplumbing]

The Black moisture barrier paper will not affect the operation of the heater, it is to stop any ingress of damp, and is advisable to have it replaced its is there for a reason and needs to be replaced! once panel is removed you need someone with the necessary equipment to test for damp/rot that may be a contractor , Carpenter, or even your local building control or your insurance company , don't let them just replace the panel all that is doing is covering up the problem it will need proper professional investigation , Damp/Rot doesn't go away it gets worse, its one of the problems with timber structures, and needs to be addressed ASAP.

 

[John93]

JTS I thank you kindly for all of your feedback and advice. Please know I keep track of everything and will follow those steps exactly. I don't think there is wood rot as that would have smelled in the years prior. But I do agree that this needs to be replaced and inspected first. So it does appear that I mucked this up and will require replacement of this moisture barrier. However,
before I did anything whatsoever, with the moisture barrier in place and the silver foil as well. It was off gassing something very noxious, which had a paint or fume smell. That was there prior to any interaction on my part.

JTS as this is something that I have to communicate to my building to co-ordinate the repair. And it may have to go to court. Do you recommend that I be open about the fact that I used compressed air and blew out the moisture barrier? Or is it best to not make any mention? I prefer to be honest but the people running this building are not exactly decent. They are the kind who would use anything against me to prevent incurring an expense. I have plans to leave this building due to the kind of people running and managing the property. Very underhanded and deceitful.

I lack experience with these sort of matters. So anything you can provide would be of tremendous help.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Treat them in the same way as they treat you, no witness to using air line so deny all knowledge sounds like you have untrustworthy people running your building, maybe the sooner you leave the better.

 

[John93]

JTS my thoughts exactly. After I get this radiator sorted. I think within the next year or so, I will relocate. As the people who run this place are crooked and corrupt. I know there are problems any place one goes. But here, the worst kinds of characters are making decisions. And a lot of my neighbors have similar views and in some cases worse.

Thankfully no other major repairs other than the rad. Will do my best to get everything dealt with. So that at least the people who come in after me, will not have the headache of having to deal with this as I do now.

JTS you're a good man. Really appreciate your help and that of everyone else who responded. It has helped me to navigate and kept me on the right track. You guys in the UK are a cut above the rest. That much is clear to me.

 

[Stigster]

On the subject of very minor leaks causing ridiculous amounts of damage (I have a friend who had £200,000 of damage cause by a long term slow leak last year, nothing to do with me fortunately!) I'd much rather have a pipe blow clean off and make an immediate mess that can be fixed and damage seen than a misting spray going under a floorboard for 6 months. In OP's case, as long as your health is not affected by damp problems, I would be at least happy that if a slow leak is the problem, it is the building owners problem to deal with and I hope you can move on. I can see this has been a stressful time for you so hope you get sorted one way or another.

Good luck.

 

[John93]

Thank you Stigster. Trying to get this worked out now. The property management will replace the rad.

I do have a new problem and wonder if anyone can offer a solution.

Management sent out a plumber to shut off the rad valve in order to allow me to use the bedroom again. The plumber claims that it is in the closed position. But the rad is emitting a low amount of heat.

I have an acquaintance who does plumbing and he came by to confirm whether this plumber did in fact shut it off completely. It was true the 1st plumber had closed all the way. 2nd plumber opened the valve then closed it back again. And now it is letting out more heat than when the 1st plumber tried to shut it off.

It seems that the valve is starting to go. And may require replacement.

Is there any way to shut this valve off for now? For example. Would turning it into the open position slowly. Letting it heat up for a couple of hours, then slowly turning it back into closed have any effect on that valve to shut it off? Or is it just very cut and dry meaning if the valve no longer shuts off completely it is a sign that it is damaged?

I guess I am concerned that this rad valve used to close completely. Then went to slight heat emitted after 1st plumber closed it. And now it is emitting more heat since my friend who is a plumber did a slight turn to open the valve then shut it back off. This progression seems to indicate more and and more heat is being let off in the closed position.

If I try anything can it possibly spring a leak? My friend said it is brass on brass. I don't know what may be shot in the valve. I wonder if there is any kind of work around so that I can at least shut the rad down until they replace it.

Also a 2nd question. When plumbers replace rads, would a new rad necessitate a new rad valve as well? Do those get installed together, or would the new rad be fitted into the old valve? If so then perhaps a valve replacement would be a good idea.

Thank you gentlemen, in advance.

 

[Gasmk1]

it has either pitted on the valve or some debris is stopping the valve shutting fully you can try turning it on and off but it may have failed. they will probbaly have to change the valve when they re-new the radiator.