WC into understairs pantry - queries... anyone here?

[advicewelcom]

Hi, looking to do two projects:



PROJECT (A): Want to bring garage WC to below the stairs pantry
PROJECT (B): Then maybe turn the garage WC area into a shower room

Pic of the PROJECT (A) basic move:

Pic of the garage WC:

Pic of the pantry area:

Garage WC and Pantry on either side of the same wall with the Garage WC being a step down:

Further pics and details here:
Move Garage WC to understairs Pantry and convert Garage WC to a Shower Room - https://photos.app.goo.gl/GtCgH2a9YbByReJy8


First step is PROJECT (A) and its a nightmare tyring to find one person/company to do this at this time. So working out what I can do myself and the plumbing is the main issue so hence posting here. Can post elsewhere if needed:


I think the steps to do PROJECT (A) is:
1 Get the plumbing in for the new WC by extending waste through the wall
2 Plumb in the feeds for the WC and small sink
3 Fix a stud wall for the cistern and pan to sit against
4 Do the pantry floor
5 Plumb and bolt in the WC
6 Plumb and fix in the sink
7 Fix an ventilation fan
8 Make a door into the hallway
9 Stud wall where the current door is

These steps make sense?

Anything I am missing or anything else worth considering?

Welcome feedback, will have questions. Ta!

 

[Basher]

Thanks. Putting down screed is going to be out of my scope - it would need it to dry before adding the self levelling and its never going to get done without a new learning curve - also have limited access to a helper. Would ideally need to get the floor work done in one day of labour.

So the two options I would have to choose between are:

Option 1.
Membrane sheet and latex self level compound on top and cut of the surplus membrane around it (no other screed)
This could get done within a day and would have the week to dry off and then plumber in.
The self level compound is able to go to 10mm and the bag has enough for 5sqm but we only need 2sqm, so have plenty of depth to play with
Just hope its okay for the membrane to sit on top of quarry tiles unbonded and the self levelling compound to be on top of membrane?

Option 2.
Painting a thick coat of this DPM and then and latex self level compound on top of that?
This isn't my preference as will burn more time waiting for the DPM paint to dry and then will take another week to come back for the self levelling compound.
Unless I can plonk the membrane sheet on top of the wet DPM paint and then self level compound of top of that and be done in the same day (I suppose not)?

I think you are saying option 2 is better? And then have to come back next week for the self levelling compound once the DPM paint is dry?

I would like option 1 - no screed, just DPM membrane and self levelling compound - as it will get done in day - would it be okay?

As I said, I'm not a builder/tiler!
It seems membrane sheet won't provide desired adhesion between the quarry tiles and SLC, and if you build up the SLC it can crack.
The usual way seems to be Option 2, with liquid DPM given a sprinkling of sharp sand when wet to provide a key for the SLC.
You can get quick-dry products which would allow all the necessary layers to be done in a day.
If you need to DIY it you could try this: ARDITEX NA Rapid Setting Levelling and Smoothing Compound - https://ardex.co.uk/product/arditex-na/,

Have you looked here : Tiling Advice | USA & UK Tiling Forum > Tilers Forums - https://www.tilersforums.com/

 

[advicewelcom]

As I said, I'm not a builder/tiler!
It seems membrane sheet won't provide desired adhesion between the quarry tiles and SLC, and if you build up the SLC it can crack.
The usual way seems to be Option 2, with liquid DPM given a sprinkling of sharp sand when wet to provide a key for the SLC.
You can get quick-dry products which would allow all the necessary layers to be done in a day.
If you need to DIY it you could try this: ARDITEX NA Rapid Setting Levelling and Smoothing Compound - https://ardex.co.uk/product/arditex-na/,

Have you looked here : Tiling Advice | USA & UK Tiling Forum > Tilers Forums - https://www.tilersforums.com/

Hi, thanks - your more of a builder/tiler then me - so will take any advise provided gladly.

Have to see if I can get a plan for this weekend as its been going on too long. Seems quarry tiles and damp mangement is something rightly flagged as an area of concern. Can't roll back easily if mistakes are made with flooring - so worth getting a plan together.

Some useful stuff on that tilers forum, but waiting for a confirmation email to access it fully.

Looked into the ARDITEX SLC - and it seems its used for self levelling compound to bond to damp floors which can then have a DPM put on top of it - from what I am seeing it can be used to avoid primers but unsure if its saying you don't need a DPM membrane with it? If fact some of the feedback states it can be used as initial layer, then DPM and then another layer on top "Easy to work as an initial leveller and then top coat for a DPM sandwich."

If I get helper in for a day - its going to be a pain to wait for anything to dry.

Considering I can't plop SLC on top of floating membrane, I think the revised options at the moment are...


1) ARDITEX SLC stuff, if it can just be put onto quarry tiles - could perhaps call the manufacturer to find out?

2) Painting DPM and using your sharp sand suggestion myself - and then getting helper around the following day (hopefully it will dry in a day) for SLC placement?

3) Hessian rug suggestion on the quarry tiles, maybe try cleaning tiles with an acidic tile cleaner? And either a WC pan plinth or silicone under the WC pan to prevent any seesawing on an uneven floor?


I could get one of these damp meters - if I took a measurement would it help direct the decision?

 

[Basher]

1) ARDITEX SLC stuff, if it can just be put onto quarry tiles - could perhaps call the manufacturer to find out?

I think this could be a good way to go if you want to even the floor - worth a call for a sanity check

2) Painting DPM and using your sharp sand suggestion myself - and then getting helper around the following day (hopefully it will dry in a day) for SLC placement?

Our builder has recently put a liquid DPM coating on top of the old screed of our period cottage kitchen floor, then scattered with sand. It dried quickly. They then put a latex screed over.

3) Hessian rug suggestion on the quarry tiles, maybe try cleaning tiles with an acidic tile cleaner? And either a WC pan plinth or silicone under the WC pan to prevent any seesawing on an uneven floor?

Least hassle route (or maybe not with the tile cleaning!), but as you've pointed out, maybe not the most practical to keep clean. You've begun to convert me to the idea of screeding, but I still worry about damp ultimately affecting the walls. But I have no evidence there is a raging damp problem, so maybe I'm just being paranoid!

I could get one of these damp meters - if I took a measurement would it help direct the decision?

Damp meters measure the resistance of what you stick them in. They are notionally "calibrated" for a few different materials. But the conductivity of materials is greatly affected by 'ionic contamination', ie dirt, salts from the ground, and other substances, so you need to be very aware of these factors as they often swamp the real moisture you are trying to measure. On the other hand if you got the meter, and it pronounced dryness, then you could be pretty confident you don't have damp!!

[/QUOTE]

 

[advicewelcom]

I think this could be a good way to go if you want to even the floor - worth a call for a sanity check



Our builder has recently put a liquid DPM coating on top of the old screed of our period cottage kitchen floor, then scattered with sand. It dried quickly. They then put a latex screed over.



Least hassle route (or maybe not with the tile cleaning!), but as you've pointed out, maybe not the most practical to keep clean. You've begun to convert me to the idea of screeding, but I still worry about damp ultimately affecting the walls. But I have no evidence there is a raging damp problem, so maybe I'm just being paranoid!



Damp meters measure the resistance of what you stick them in. They are notionally "calibrated" for a few different materials. But the conductivity of materials is greatly affected by 'ionic contamination', ie dirt, salts from the ground, and other substances, so you need to be very aware of these factors as they often swamp the real moisture you are trying to measure. On the other hand if you got the meter, and it pronounced dryness, then you could be pretty confident you don't have damp!!

[/QUOTE]

Thanks. Gave Ardex a call and spoke to there Business Dev guy. Knowledgeable chap and ended up with a techie talk about substrates, bonding, dpm's, slc's, etc. The rub of it was there were two solutions for quarry tiles using their product which is designed to bond to damp surfaces but not replace a DPM. That is...

1. PAINT DPM
If the quarry tiles are even, then his suggestion is to paint on a DPM and then within 6-48hrs put down the Arditex NA onto a tacky dry liquid DPM which will create a bond.

2. DPM SANDWICH
If the tiles are two uneven for even cover of a paint DPM then can do a DPM sandwich using their product - one layer Arditex then liquid DPM and then another layer Arditex.

Am learning that the product isn't hassle free to get hold off - most distributors require trade accounts and not many around as they don't sell that much of it. Prices vary between £30-£60+VAT 😳 for a 20kg bag and solution depending on distributor.

Am starting to think keeping the quarry tiles left as they are would be less hassle and can just get on with the plumbing.

I suppose, if needed, could just pull the WC pan out and do the floor if I can't live with quarry tiles when finished?

 

[Basher]

Am starting to think keeping the quarry tiles left as they are would be less hassle and can just get on with the plumbing.

I suppose, if needed, could just pull the WC pan out and do the floor if I can't live with quarry tiles when finished?

Seems you got good advice.
You could certainly do the plumbing first and then re-visit the floor later if unhappy with it.
But if the soil pipe is going through the wall horizontally as post #10 suggests, might be good to leave some vertical play in that pipe if the floor level might be raised later!
Sounds like you have good info now, just a question of deciding which way to go!
Good luck with the project.

 

[advicewelcom]

Seems you got good advice.
You could certainly do the plumbing first and then re-visit the floor later if unhappy with it.
But if the soil pipe is going through the wall horizontally as post #10 suggests, might be good to leave some vertical play in that pipe if the floor level might be raised later!

Kept the previous floor as quarry tiles and got on with the plumbing - thanks, think it was the right shout.

Ripped out the old garage WC and put some pipe plumbing in and cemented some of it up...

4"/110cm Drain connector with boss into an elbow, then into an 110cm offset and then 110mm white pipe through the wall...

110mm Waste pipe then has a Rigid 90° Angled Toilet Pan Connector which fits on the WC Pantry pan waste...

But the garage waste piping is not sitting completely level to the floor...

A slight lift off the ground on drain connector part that faces the wall...

Anyone think this gap with the connector not being flush with the floor is a big issue? And should I do something different?

I could:

1. Change the offset to a bigger one on the garage black elbow and see if that works?
2. Or I could change the Rigid 90° Angled Toilet Pan Connector White for a flexi one?
3. Or maybe the impingement is the wall hole or floor and needs more knocking out?
4. Or put some plumbers putty/silicone/cement or something around the lifted connector front area?

Don't want any future leaks or smells in the garage area as there will be a new raised floor a shower ontop of the garage elbow waste piping.

Also worried about all these concealed connection points under a future floor, but I don't think I have any other solution.

Any piping options I am missing which would be a better idea or anything I should do to sure things up? If things aren't flush and there was a blockage and waste back tracked?

Welcome views.




(PS> If it helps with advise - side by side, the black drain connector that replaced the old white connector that the garage WC was plugged into)