what flue gas analyser ?

[Billy Bob Bob]

One question we usually get asked is “What analyser should I get?”

It’s purely down to the individual. What are you planning to use it on? Oil? Gas? Cookers? Do you want to print off your results immediately or store them to print later? Would you be looking to use it to do tightness testing? Do you want to test flue draughts? And so on.

Most importantly, how much are you willing to spend? Up front and, further down the line, on calibration costs?

Below are a list of analysers with members comments, good and bad.

Kane.
“Kane for me, i bought a 455 last year, great bit of kit, just had it recalibrated cost £100.00 and back in 3 days , well chuffed, cost me £549.99 i had on a special offer off the nett, search everywhere chum before you buy, lots of sites on the nett that'll give you good prices”
“I've got a Kane 455. Used an Anton Sprint as well, but I prefer the Kane. Cost me £500 + VAT for the full CPA kit - analyser, printer, the full set of probes, etc.”
“Got a Kane 455 the whole shee bang (printer + all diff probes) from gas installers workmate website for a good price. Fixed price servicing and 5 year gurantee on CO probe was a good selling point for me, first ever FGA, been warned off tpi as a couple of lads got them and nothing but problems”
“I have the kane 455 and its very good. I also would like to say the testo ones are quite good but very expensive.”

Testo.
“I like the Testo better than Anton. But they all do the same job, so just get the one you think is the best value.”
“I'm looking to replace my fga this year. Past 3yrs I've put it in for service and it's cost me upwards £200 for cells each year!!! I'm sure that's a rip-off!!! Got a pal with an unserviced model exactly the same and we compared the readings on his & mine one day ... Virtually the same and he hadn't had it looked at for 3yrs! It's a Testo 325, by-the-way ..!”
“I've used a Testo & my current one issued to me is a v2. I preferred the Testo. Easy to use, felt better quality, was quicker with the readings & never gave me a problem. The only downside was the size & the massive box it comes in! The Anton looks & feels cheap, navigation is not as easy & it takes ages to settle. I got water in it & had to dry it out in the a/c for 2 weeks whilst I was.on holiday. The pump is noisy too, even before I got condense in it.”

Anton.
“I've had the anton v2 and a tpi. The Anton is much better and would recommend it to anyone. It is expensive, but if you are going to use it alot then it is worth the money.”
“Anton sprint v1 for me,does what it says on the Google search easy to use had it calibrated at jml for 70 quid when it was a year old”
“ye the anton is my prefered fga but heard kane is good.I did have a tpi but it needed new sensor after 6 month and was told it needed it again when it was sent for re-callibration”
“I have a Kane 250 and Anton v2. I prefer using the v2.”
“just had my v2 calibrated & cells, £285!. mate had his testo done £300. kane requires them after a few years, £200 odd. parts center say tpi, bg use them and any service and any required sensors all in @£56+vat.”

So there you have it. Financial constraints seem to be the biggest decider.

This should be left open for additional comments.

Read more: http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/private.php?do=showpm&pmid=157223#ixzz25sV3h2Ay

thanks to croppie for creating the info and thread

 

[AWheating]

when your trying to decide what FGA you want you also need to take in consideration the cost of its calibration and maintenence. I would suggest you base your research over a 5 year period.

Every analyser will require yearly calibration but some will require the replacement of cells, filters etc..... so check what needs to be done to keep it working over the 5 years. For example the kane 455 has a five year cell life but if its yearly calibration cost or purchase cost is more expensive than say an anton then what saving you may make on the longer cell life may be lost in another area.

just something to consider when comparing prices.

 

[DirksPlumbing]

The cell life span is something that you can not simply put down as a fixed life span. It depends on so many variables. There is storage temperature, CO concentrations, how careful the sensors get flushed or water just to name a few.
It just takes an old oil boiler where the house owners dad sets the combustion up by ear to cut your sensors life span in half.
Apart from the sensors you should not forget that nowadays Lithium batteries do tend to have a pretty short life span as well.
It is a bit of gambling. At the end it is down to personal experience and likings.
I have been working for years now with the Anton Sprint V2. And I like them. Before that I had a Woehler hand held. Which I possibly would have continued to use if I could have got it serviced with reasonable efforts.

 

[AWheating]

you cant plan your cell life in advance of course but one that has an expected life of 5years over 1 or two years is something that should factor in your sums. If you base it on what may happen....... well dont buy one cus you may get run over tomorrow and not get to use it.

 

[DirksPlumbing]

you cant plan your cell life in advance of course but one that has an expected life of 5years over 1 or two years is something that should factor in your sums. If you base it on what may happen....... well dont buy one cus you may get run over tomorrow and not get to use it.

My point was not so much that you should not take that in consideration at all. But you have to weigh. And some of the influences are purely how you treat the device. And you should not bank on the estimated life span at all as this is simply an estimate.
If you are gonna do services day in day out I would be very surprised if you would get even the best sensor way past 6 months.

 

[the baker]

For what its worth here's my two pence worth,

I felt the need for an FGA back in 2003/4 when I started installing Condensing boilers. I was convinced that I needed an instrument which was caperble of doing every task imaginable, fortunatly I saw an advert for Gas & Enviromental Services of Welyn Garden City.
I rand and spoke to a bloke called Keving who talked me out of re-morgaguaging my house and after asking me what sort of work I was involve with, explaineed the caperbilities of the Anto 2000Xt with gas leak and CO room test included in the package.

He laid out the costs over a five year period and was honist about new regulationd would probably need new FGA's as the years went by.

So I became the proud owner of an FGA which is regularly serviced calibrated by the company I bought it from and am very satisfied with it.

As time went by I had times when I doubted the readings I was getting so spoke to G&ES who checked it out and reasured me all was ok with the 2000Xt, but you know what its klie when a customer is looking over you sholder and you are trying to convince them their boiler is not running correctly, so, I now have twp FGA's as I bought the Sprint V" which gives me the reassurance of being able to stick a second probe into the sampling point and stick it to the customer(in the nicest possible way of course)

Some of us RGI's have a liking for particular makes, thats the way we are, but if you want good unbiased advice, competative prices, and a small company service give them a call.

I dont know if the Moderators allow this, and apologise if it breaks forum rules but their web site is;

Gas & Environmental Services Ltd

Tim

 

[Dotty]

You can only speak from personal experience Tim. Mine's a Kane 455. Only thing it doesn't do that I wish it did is measure draught.

 

[bspareltd]

I have a regin (kane) and bought that cheaply , had this for 3 years , calibrate it every year and if it needed a new cell or major money spent on the it , i will just bin it and get another cheap fga .
You only need co,co2 and ratio ,if you have a gas sniffer and other features you have a bigger bill every year when you go for calibration !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Stuthewarrior]

HI Guys/admin
Could we put a section on hear so we no how much people are spending getting there FGA serviced. This way we can work out what FGA are worth buying ? There are often alot of question about FGA,s so this might help people in there selection.

An online reveiw from people on here that are using them and getting them serviced

Thanks Stu

 

[Barry98]

I send mine here

COMBUSTION FLUE GAS ANALYSER INSTRUMENTATION CALIBRATION BY JMW

 

[Stuthewarrior]

I was thinking along the lines do some fga cost more to run. Do some always need sensors and other such items replacing making servicing expensive.
This might help people with there selection when buying ?

Regards Stu

An online reveiw from people on here that are using them and getting them serviced

 

[wards]

kane 455 is my preference,5yr without additional costs,sent it to kane for calibration yesterday and will be back on monday,£84+vat.

 

[wards]

well chuffed,got analyser back with a set of new batteries/filters and a roll of paper for printer thrown in f.o.c.

 

[rawr]

which analyser can take a big dose of CO and not need to be sent back for re calibration? our anton sprints are absolutely knackered once thats happened it's a bit annoying =s once its said high CO's once it's done in, time to ring someone to fetch another one over

 

[EPH]

You can replace some of the sensors yourself in certain Testo models.

 

[Mike Jackson]

Have a look at Gas Analyser > Flue Gas Analyser > CO2 Monitor > CO Detector | QMI

 

[buckley plumb]

tpi rep was in pts last wk said they give 5 years warranty on the tpi and will calibrate and change sensors for £70 if it needs them. they just look cheap what are they like

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

tpi rep was in pts last wk said they give 5 years warranty on the tpi and will calibrate and change sensors for £70 if it needs them. they just look cheap what are they like

crap TBH

 

[aaronsmith]

hopefully will have to buy one of these soon,will have around £500 mostly used for servicing,quite like the anton flue gas annalisers. eany recomendations?

 

[buckley plumb]

crap TBH

thanks . will need a new one next year looking at the kane and anton

 

[rawr]

at our place we have anton's, I dont like them, when I got shown how to set up gas valves we gotta use an analyser, n if the new gas valve is set up wrong and burns far too rich it gives of an insane CO reading, and then the analyser if knackered, like really knackered, I don't know if other brands are better in that way

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

finding my 2 year old anton v1 is able to take a lot of abuse,find it great TBH easy to use and quite durable

 

[Stuthewarrior]

Well people I went for the kane 455 cpa1 kit in the end and I must say very impressed.

Stu

 

[fast phil]

you wont go far wrong with that one easy to use and robust

 

[Jolly green]

Just ordered myself a TPI 712, will let you know the outcome.

 

[pipefitter]

Recently got the kane 455 & liking it

 

[ndsmith]

I also got a Kane 455 a few weeks ago, I like it a lot. Would recommend to anyone

 

[buckley plumb]

scared to switch my anton back on it went well off the scale the other day when setting co on glowworm and the battery ran out while purging 🙂

 

[jfb]

Kane now guarantee thier analysers for five years. They also guarantee the cost of calibration during the guanantee period.

 

[Richie_77]

I have the Kane 455 cpa1 kit can't fault it.

 

[Derek Hardman]

I have used Testo, Kane and Anton, I prefer the Anton, got my first Anton about 7 years ago, replaced it for the newer sprint v2, when i needed more for other engineers i bought the v2's again, easy to use, durable, if I have any problem it is the length of time taken to recalibrate and get it back.

 

[stoker122]

I have used Testo, Kane and Anton, I prefer the Anton, got my first Anton about 7 years ago, replaced it for the newer sprint v2, when i needed more for other engineers i bought the v2's again, easy to use, durable, if I have any problem it is the length of time taken to recalibrate and get it back.

Have you GES in Welwyn Garden City? They have a pretty quick turnaround 🙂

 

[Reza]

So if you're considering to buy an analyser, here are some facts which helps you decide which unit to go for. The main two analyser on the market are Kane 455 and Anton Sprint V2. Anton utilises electro chemical O2 and CO sensors which have a shelf life of 2 years and 3 years respectively. The O2 sensor will need changing after 2 years as it depletes whether the unit is in use or not. The cost of exchanging the sensors including a calibration of an Anton analyser is £175 +vat (today) and the turnaround is 7 to 10 days as stated but has been reported to take as long as they like it to take! The Kane 455 utilises infrared CO and O2 sensors which lasts 5 years so upon the sixth year, they need replacing.The cost of exchanging the sensors including a calibration of a Kane analyser is £145 +vat (today) and the turnaround is same day if you take the unit in yourself or 1 to 3 days if posted. I know which one I would go for, but here you have it, just thought the information may of some use to you.

 

[Reza]

You use a V2 Derek! That's shocking..lol

 

[bob99]

I have only ever used a anton fga, never really had any problems, its an expensive bit of kit, and I would recommend it. [DLMURL]https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B005DEXU1E/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_til?tag=earnitonline-21&camp=1406&creative=6394&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=B005DEXU1E&adid=1H8YMWWWHVDRPKMK757V[/DLMURL]&

 

[paul13899]

We went for the Kane 455! EXCELLENT bit of kit!

Wirral Plumbers, Heating and gas engineers - PD Services

 

[lairdplumbing]

I have the Kane 425 with all the extras, had it for 5 years it is very simple to use.

 

[buckley plumb]

how do I stand doing landlord certs without my analyser never been without one but not getting one until next wk

 

[zutman]

Just think how we did landlord tickets before ? If its not a condensing boiler you can run all the checks without one, i run all my checks first the old way and then use the analyser to back up my findings not keen on just using a machine to service a gas appliance, last month i went to look at a boiler that was acting strange british gas had been to service it the week before only using an analyser and the reading were ok, i took the front of the heat exchanger and bingo half full of carbon so dont worry to much about the analyser they can give false readings.

i use a sprint very easy to use but expensive to maintain, but havin said that if its paying its way then it dont matter

 

[hammers4spanner]

analyser will give false readings if not calibrated imo

however i still do a full check up gas rates etc etc then analyse myself

 

[Reza]

I was advised by GSR that if you're testing a non condensing boiler, you may not be required to record your ratio. Then again, they weren't fully committed to their words when they said it. Leaves a get out claws if you catch my drift.

 

[hammers4spanner]

get out clause and gas safe ,,,,,never !!!

 

[Reza]

They even have planted that concept even in their recorded message, only they don't call it a get out claws!

 

[Reza]

I haven't got all those pretty pictures under my name! Sorry a bit new here! :cyclist:

 

[AWheating]

you dont need to do any fga readings on a landlords cert, unless the appliance manufacturer requires it.

 

[lance]

had a testo, prefer the kane.

 

[heatseek185]

I just bought a Kane 455 CPA1 Kit from BES, can someone please tell me when the first calibration is due, would it be 12 months after the date of purchase or 12 months after the date on the Analyser Test Report which reads 30/01/2013 ?

 

[mutley racers]

It will tell you on it. One of the buttons to the left of the ratio. Menu maybe. Cannot remember

 

[heatseek185]

I found it thanks, it's under status: 280 days.

 

[Trev]

I've got a Anton Evo2 and love it. Had a Sprint 2 before this. Tryed kane before but the printers take forever on them and the screens tiny unless you folk out for the decent model. I'll recommend Anton's any day of the week!

 

[Reza]

I've got a Anton Evo2 and love it. Had a Sprint 2 before this. Tryed kane before but the printers take forever on them and the screens tiny unless you folk out for the decent model. I'll recommend Anton's any day of the week!

There are miles more to an analyser than what you just described. On every aspect Kane is a more superior product. I've benchmarked my own Anton against Kane and it scored lower on nearly everything. Too much to go into her, but what if I was to tell you that you will have to spend equivalent to a price of an analyser for the exchange of its sensors over the space of 6 years! Your and my Anton analyser uses electrochemical sensors and the O2 sensor will deplete under 2 years, whether you use it or not. I could have my Anton on the shelve and pick it up in 2 years time and hey presto, another £230 for new sensors. Kane uses infrared technology, sensors don't have to be changed for up to 6 years and it's more accurate too. Like I said, there are a lot more to an anlyser than what you kust described.

 

[Dotty]

I agree. I'm using an Evo2 at the moment, I'd go back to a Kane 455 or 457 in a heartbeat!

 

[Reza]

I agree. I'm using an Evo2 at the moment, I'd go back to a Kane 455 or 457 in a heartbeat!

JC, The 457 is two analyser in one as I am sure you already know. I made sure the wife knows that too, I'm sure I have an special occasion coming up soon!

 

[Dotty]

Aye I've been looking at it Rez, then disappearing into a small room on my own for 10 minutes or so!

If I'd have known 3 months ago it was coming out I would've made my company hold on!

 

[Reza]

If you got an Anton, expect to see this every two year, £175 +VAT every time you get this screen!

 

[Dotty]

Glad it's not my money!

 

[Reza]

We got the technical director from Kane on our forum this evening, lots of information people need to know on analysers. If you do a lot of Worcesters then setting the CO2 would require very tight margins. Any analyser that runs on electro-chemical sensors, will not be able to produce the requested tolerances. This evening session should be a very informative event. Many of you are already a member of our forum "Gas Engineers Forum" on Facebook. I do insist on GSR members only. If you want to take part in the conversation, send me a request to join the group as soon as. Thank you, Reza.

 

[Elforleather]

Has to be the Kane 455. It is simple and does everything. Far better than the Testo that only ever tested my patience!

 

[Reza]

It was a great live chat yesterday evening with forum members and the technical director at Kane International. I thought you may want to see some informative comments that was made regards the technology used in portable Gas Flue analysers.

Hi Derek with the Kane 455 we use Infra-red technology to measure the CO2 and our own Monox sensor to measure CO. the Infra-red sensor has an infinite life as there is no deterioration like an electro-chemical sensor, the Monox Co sensor is expected to last approximately 7 years.The 455 now comes with a 6 year warranty and cost just £84 per year for check-recal & certification. this will cover all internal parts.

There are two main benefits to using Infra-red sensors over electro-chemical. The first is the long life allows us to fix the cost of ownership so there are no nasty surprises in 18 months-2 years. The second is the greater accuracy you get when directly measuring CO2 as oppose to calculating CO2 like the Anton or Testo.

The Kane 455 works very well with the Worcester range as i say the accuracy of the CO2 measurement helps with 0.2% either side of the book target you you need to know the true reading. Also the 455 has an auxiliary screen that allows you to customise the readings so you can perform a negative pressure reading when required by certain models at the same time you are analysing the flue gases, this will provide with a report with both readings on.

The resolution for our CO2 sensor is 0.1% and the accuracy +/- 0.2% of reading.

There is an issue when using electro-chemical sensors when the CO2 content is high. As a manufacturer we made the decision 4 years ago to stop using this old technology and invest in developing our range of Infra-red sensors. As the CO2 gets higher in say high efficiency gas boiler or an Oil boiler a chemical 02 sensor gets less and less accurate. this could lead to an engineer making unnecessary adjustments to the boiler.

Most of the other models available to in this country apart from Kane use chemical sensors usually supplied by City Technology. This company acknowledges there is an issue and on there own website they have made a statement to this affect.

Another issue I have with the Anton/Worcester combination, some older boilers were fitted with a Prettl valve which when it breaks send the gas/air ratio out to thousands ppm, this quickly destroys the sensors, how would Kane cope with say 2000ppm?
The 455 will measure up to 4000ppm for 15 minutes and then purge the sensor. it will not saturate the sensor as it will clear in approximate 5 minutes. If you saturate an chemical sensor with high CO in can take a very long time to clear if you are lucky, if your not lucky it may need replacing. At Kane's we had all of these issues back in 2008 i am glad the dark days are over for us.

The new Kane 457 is designed to EN50379, BS7967 and BS8494 this is the only analyser currently available to all three standards. the Kane 455 is designed to EN50379 & BS7967 and is the only analyser to have been independently approved to these standards.

Room CO testing or fumes investigation is now a more commonly used function on a flue gas analyser as more customers are using CO alarms. the 455 will perform a 15 or 30 minute room test to check the levels of carbon monoxide. As all you guys are now CPA1 qualified this is something that would have been shown and discussed when taking that assessment. The 457 will perform again a 15 or 30 minute room air test the difference being its monitoring CO levels and CO2 levels this is required when testing to CMDDA1 level.

 

[Nostrum]

How much commission did you make? :29:

 

[Reza]

How much commission did you make? :29:

Nstrum, it’s just as well you got the smiley faces on your comment and they seem to be accumulating. But I think it's a perfectly valid question. You probably won't believe the answer though any way. The point is mate, I am getting a lot of positive kicks from the members of the Gas Engineers Forum. It was very frustrating at first, but after all the time I vested in developing the forum, suddenly all the chips began to fall into their place. This week, three of our forum members used their networking initiatives and as a result they are working on one single project together this very minute, now that is how I get my benefit, not the materialistic kind mind you. For me anything that benefits us all at large is kind of a commission. If the kind of reform which I call for, suddenly gets implemented and all you guys get an order book full of jobs, then that's how I get my commission. The Kane saga is absolutely no different. I spent much of my life developing control and instrumentation projects, I used much of my knowledge and experience to bring the issue as it is to the members of our forum, no more no less. It is down to them to make the decision, but ask yourself this question, if it was for money, then I could have just as well approach Anton or Testo or indeed many others, but apart from researching their product, I didn't even go as far as contacting them. It's not rocket science to differentiate between the two technologies. I just think the manufacturers have been successful to pull a cover over the shortfall that their product has for all these years! The facts and data sheets speak for themselves. Incidentally talking of data sheets, here's one on the electro-chemical O2 sensor, probably used in some popular brands of analysers. Leaving Facebook... | Facebook

 

[buckley plumb]

just had my anton back form pts they do a fixed charge repairs with anton - cost £130 for calibration and sensor

 

[Reza]

£175 +vat and some one on our forum paid £300! It seems they charge whatever they can getaway with!

 

[DTBPlumbing]

Regin REGXA1

Found this for £260 online new. Is it any good?








https://sites.google.com/site/dtbplumbingandheating/

https://www.facebook.com/dtbplumbingandheating

 

[Chris Kafetzis]

£84 plus vat is how much I spend in calibrating mine too ( I have the Kane 455). Not got much experience with other FGA's but I did notice while speaking to a rothenberger rep that they sell one. It's the Kane 455 rebranded, but made by Kane. I'm not sure if its any cheaper than just buying the Kane one but might be worth looking for. ( if your on a budget ) otherwise I recommend the Kane 455 anyday.

also just another thing, I hate rothenberger after the trouble I had with one of their freezing machines, but if their FGA is Kane's one then if its cheaper what the hell right?