Zoning education.

[Dan Masey]

I'm still trying to get my head around central heating zones. I understand the practicality and that each zone has its own thermostat or programmer. But someone asked me today, how is having a separate thermostat upstairs any different than setting all the upstairs TRV's to 3 or 4??

Wasn't really sure on the best answer to this. Obviously a separate programmer makes sense but is it really worth it just having a thermostat controlling that zone?

 

[AWheating]

its supposed to be energy saving. If the trv's are turn down or off then it wont make any difference really.

im guessing the powers that be believe that the general public are either to lazy or thick to turn things down or off 🙁

i cant really see the point to it in most domestic systems, but on new build you cant avoid it.

 

[Leo21]

I personally don't think the saving will be big enough to pay for the extra installation costs.
I haven't seen any one do it on existing houses, not even holier than though British gas.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

I'm still trying to get my head around central heating zones. I understand the practicality and that each zone has its own thermostat or programmer. But someone asked me today, how is having a separate thermostat upstairs any different than setting all the upstairs TRV's to 3 or 4??

Wasn't really sure on the best answer to this. Obviously a separate programmer makes sense but is it really worth it just having a thermostat controlling that zone?

A good answer is that stats, valeves and timers interlock the boiler, stopping it burning gas. You could turn all your trvs off on the boiler will just cycle on and off

 

[Dan Masey]

Yea exactly, I understand it on new builds. But on existing...

Extra bundle of 22mm, 2 port valve, extra thermostat, cable,

Or just turn the trvs down upstairs. Most people want the upstairs 1 or 2 degrees lower anyway.

 

[solutions]

Wireless programable trv heads is often an easier way to supply the same level of interlock on existing systems but unless its a really large property there is little to gain. The additional cost of the valve heads would take some considerable time to repay based on the improved efficiency. As with most of these central heating efficiency improvements the home owner would be better off improving insulation and fitting heat recovery ventilation.

 

[Ermintrude]

Wireless programable trv heads is often an easier way to supply the same level of interlock on existing systems but unless its a really large property there is little to gain. The additional cost of the valve heads would take some considerable time to repay based on the improved efficiency. As with most of these central heating efficiency improvements the home owner would be better off improving insulation and fitting heat recovery ventilation.

Remote trv providing boiler interlock? Which ones do this?

 

[tamz]

Danfoss living connect

http://heating.danfoss.com/PCMPDF/living-connect_VIFNE302.pdf

 

[solutions]

Remote trv providing boiler interlock? Which ones do this?

Danfoss living connect

http://heating.danfoss.com/PCMPDF/living-connect_VIFNE302.pdf

Amongst others. The cheapest of this type of system I have found so far is on Conrad components website have not had an opportunity to try them yet though. Heres the link for those interested. http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/ce/en/overview/2805070/HomeMatic-Wireless-Heating-Control-Systems

 

[Ermintrude]

Wow, so actually provides "real" interlock I.e controls time and temp and switches boiler on and off? But if upstairs has 7 or 8 rads wouldn't it be cheaper and more simplistic to maintain with a traditional stat/programmer and z/v?

 

[AWheating]

A good answer is that stats, valeves and timers interlock the boiler, stopping it burning gas. You could turn all your trvs off on the boiler will just cycle on and off

you get boiler interlock with one zone or multipul zones.

 

[Leo21]

Wow, so actually provides "real" interlock I.e controls time and temp and switches boiler on and off? But if upstairs has 7 or 8 rads wouldn't it be cheaper and more simplistic to maintain with a traditional stat/programmer and z/v?

I think that all depends on pipe layout. If the boilers upstairs and downstairs is a solid floor,you'd have to double up on pipe runs.

 

[Ermintrude]

I think that all depends on pipe layout. If the boilers upstairs and downstairs is a solid floor,you'd have to double up on pipe runs.

Yes good point, had my big house goggles on. Would be a mare on microbore 90's build with 8mm droppers!

 

[happyflyer]

Danfoss living connect

http://heating.danfoss.com/PCMPDF/living-connect_VIFNE302.pdf

Tamz,

There are lots of companies making this sort of gear now, there is a real market out there. I know its a bit expensive but TRV don't work all
that good and you cannot time zone TRV individually,if you want to save energy battery wireless operated TRV is the way to go, you can get rid of your two zone valve and put two fingers up to the shameful building regulations which are 20 years behind the times, they will never catch up, we will have to do it for them.

There is no education needed in zoning, its a no-brainer, you will never get condemned for putting too much control in, it just cost a little more, and like someone has just said, get a solid GF and piping two zone is a pig, in plastic though I suppose you could just throw it everywhere, no one will see it under the FBs.:crazy:

Tamz I take it you are promoting this stuff for your jobs, promoting the good use of energy in Scotland, where it is much colder


Tony

http://www.syxthsense.com/thermostats/tx-vtrx/tx-wireless-electronic-radiator-valve-actuator/

http://www.plumbarena.co.uk/product...gclid=CPSP6Ya0wLoCFQXHtAodhlkAVw#.UnHzcTxFCJA

http://www.saveonheatingbills.co.uk/ look at i-temp

 

[happyflyer]

Take a look a USA house FIVE ZONES, note the singles yellow feeding the valve actuators all 24VAC, easy and safe to work on, bit of a mess,
also note the air extractor on top of the expansion vessel, still available here in UK but not much used on domestic, TOO EXPENSIVE
not need, client doesn't want to pay, BTW we still make zone valves in 240VAC what idiots, maybe in 20 years time we will go 24VAC

How to remove the air from your boiler / heater - YouTube

 

[Ermintrude]

My house and a few of the ones I have done out are individually controlled rooms. Zv and Myson mptrf for each room. Would send pic of part of manifold in my house but it's rough as owt.

 

[Leo21]

My house and a few of the ones I have done out are individually controlled rooms. Zv and Myson mptrf for each room. Would send pic of part of manifold in my house but it's rough as owt.

Youve got to post a picture now! It would be wrong not to.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Youve got to post a picture now! It would be wrong not to.

I agree. Failing to post a pic now would actually be a crime against nature.

 

[happyflyer]

Spot on Ray, need photos or no good, I need proper explanation at my age, writing is no good on its own, try and keep them in focus please or they will look good when I take my glasses off. Wireless rad valves rules OK.

 

[happyflyer]

I agree. Failing to post a pic now would actually be a crime against nature.

A crime against "Humanity" Ray its more serious than you make it out to be. It would be nice if you could tick the "I Like" box for your own post hey!!!

 

[happyflyer]

My house and a few of the ones I have done out are individually controlled rooms. Zv and Myson mptrf for each room. Would send pic of part of manifold in my house but it's rough as owt.

Ermi what is rough as owt, the photo, the workmanship or what, you got me worried, are you really PSR, (Photographic Safe Registered)

 

[Ermintrude]

It's the pipe work. Not shaking like a dog taking a poop ( unlike welsh contingents) valve manifold tidy just a bit too much speed fit on outlets. Will shame myself later.

Rough as owt is northern dialect for "the work appears to have been done by a man wearing Stetson and riding a pony"

 

[happyflyer]

Ermi,

Why don't you do like others do, don't tell them you did it.....:59:

 

[Ermintrude]

Fist floor manifold. It's a nice job really!

 

[happyflyer]

Ermi,

I would have come straight up with those plastics and then you don't need the plastic elbows, it's all extra pressure drop Ermi, good job you
good a cupboard to hide it all in, gone mad with the 15mm clips got some over off a job, or big cheapo bag from B&Q, why didn't you buy a 200 mtre
roll of plastic then no joints.If you can bronze weld you could have made up you own manifolds , never mind thanks for sharing it with us all Ermi,

Tony

I have PM you

 

[Ermintrude]

Stuff going under itv

 

[Leo21]

Looks alright to me, your roughest job is always your own home anyway.

 

[Worcester]

I could have it wrong, however it looks as though only the Honeywell and Danfoss have true boiler interlock (zone valve / pump), or did I miss it on the other two?

(the other two still rely on existing room stat / timer controls, so if room stat up to temp, but one room cold it doesn't get heated, or you want a room heated earlier say nice warm bathroom for early shower tomorrow, it may not happen..)

 

[happyflyer]

Looks alright to me, your roughest job is always your own home anyway.

Ouch!:boxing_smiley:

 

[Worcester]

Also looks like the others are radiator by radiator, whereas it seems like only Honeywell and Danfoss allows you to combine radiators into rooms / zones..

 

[tiptoptrump]

Also looks like the others are radiator by radiator, whereas it seems like only Honeywell and Danfoss allows you to combine radiators into rooms / zones..

I bit the bullet last Xmas and treated myself to the Danfoss Link CC together with the living connect rad valves & Boiler relay. I also fitted an in-line relay to my hot water controls so everything is timed from the controller. All in all I am well impressed with the system. All the rooms have different set back times, set up from the central controller. I experimented a bit as the default setting was for every trv, when demanding heat, to flash up the boiler. I have knocked it down to just a few critical rooms. TVR's are the the neatest on the market some of which can be controlled by other Z-Wave equipment. I liked the Controller so much I decided to go for it. Can't understand Danfoss' reluctance to support the product in the uk. They know it has a boiler interlock because the unit is manufactured here. I did ask them if they were waiting for an upgrade to an opentherm interlock similar to the one with honeywell evohome, but they steadfastly refuse to answer any questions, with the comment "we don’t currently support this in the UK".

 

[happyflyer]

Tiptop,

Why should they support the UK, the domestic market is stuck with it's head in the sand with four quid TRVs, they must sell 100,000s a year, as gas runs out and the price continues to rise eventually people will start to think about saving energy, full house control is the only way to save energy, every room timed and temperature controlled, simplezzzz, Ermi is on is way to the future with zoning, a bit sort of first principles but he has seen the light, but would he do that for a custard, would the custard have the space, Jodrell Bank taking over one of your bedrooms to control the room temps, I am not knocking him for trying at least he's making an effort. I have said before there are a number of whole house system out there but the UK domestic market on energy saving is tosh, government don't go far enough with the 2 zone brain dead token gesture idea. Hell of a good job commercial see energy in a different light

 

[happyflyer]

This is one for Ermi only not in plastic, I spend all my days now snagging other peoples work (easy hey) this is a job like Ermi has done at home only on a commercial, see if you can spot the mistakes.

 

[Ermintrude]

DHW DCW labelled incorrectly as return shown as DCW. No back flow protection that I can see. Flue not pointed, gas pipework under supported and asking for damage. Drain off in a considerate location. No Aav??

LLH well supported with no Aav

Couldn't see where system water coming from?
Manifold looked ok? Was bypass facing right way? Drain off on primary side of LLH missing?

Around twin head looked messy. Frost control?

Gas sleeve not pointed or sealed, earth? Supply looks a bit narrow for 100kw?

Probably missed all sorts.

 

[TomLane]

DHW DCW labelled incorrectly as return shown as DCW. No back flow protection that I can see. Flue not pointed, gas pipework under supported and asking for damage. Drain off in a considerate location. No Aav??

LLH well supported with no Aav

Couldn't see where system water coming from?
Manifold looked ok? Was bypass facing right way? Drain off on primary side of LLH missing?

Around twin head looked messy. Frost control?

Gas sleeve not pointed or sealed, earth? Supply looks a bit narrow for 100kw?

Probably missed all sorts.

Top effort of analysis for a Sunday morning!

Fair play!

There was me thinking that the magnolia walls looked like they could do with a lick of paint!

 

[happyflyer]

DHW DCW labelled incorrectly as return shown as DCW. No back flow protection that I can see. Flue not pointed, gas pipework under supported and asking for damage. Drain off in a considerate location. No Aav??

LLH well supported with no Aav

Couldn't see where system water coming from?
Manifold looked ok? Was bypass facing right way? Drain off on primary side of LLH missing?

Around twin head looked messy. Frost control?

Gas sleeve not pointed or sealed, earth? Supply looks a bit narrow for 100kw?

Probably missed all sorts.

Jeez Ermi,

Even I didn't spot any of them, you got the job, when do you want to start, minimum wage OK...:crowngrin:

 

[happyflyer]

Ermi,

Look at the photo of the boiler and lets start at the boiler and discuss the merits of fitting a shut off valve on the flow and return directly under the boiler, have you ever seen this on the domestic scene. BTW the expansion vessel is not inside the boiler case, you could have also assumed that looking and the size of the system

Tony

 

[Leo21]

All these extra controls are well and good, but will the custs want to pay the extra? I don't think so. Then there's the reliability which is carp on most of these wireless products.

 

[happyflyer]

All these extra controls are well and good, but will the custs want to pay the extra? I don't think so. Then there's the reliability which is carp on most of these wireless products.

No Leo Custard won't want to pay until Custard can't pay gas bill, I am not advocating wireless

 

[Ermintrude]

Got no choice if it's a big house. Part L.

Re expansion ; wood for the trees didn't see big red elephant in room. If valves full bore I always fit as make repairs or boiler change easier. If in a cascade I always fit trimming valve on outside two just to help set up. ( but that's over 90kw so I never done anything over 75, honest )

Is pump internal? No magnetic filter? Adey industrial ones are nice

 

[happyflyer]

Ermi,

No magfilter no copper in system all steel, could have still fitted one, big red elephant on other side of room, point was would you fit two HAND operated valves one on flow and return directly under boiler, if you want to isolate the boiler look at the other photo, it would take you 30 seconds to close all the zone valve, drop the pressure in the boiler by lifting the PRV and no water in boiler, valves not needed and no one could accidentally turn them off when boiler running, a mere point and a waste of money.

 

[Ermintrude]

Never dump by prv! The fkr never reseals, drain off at lowest point it's a.basic! Perhaps some lock Sheilds then? Or ones that require a hex key. But who's going in the plant room? Care taker? . No provision for balancing on returns either? Assume each cir is more than one emitter?

 

[happyflyer]

Never dump by prv! The fkr never reseals, drain off at lowest point it's a.basic! Perhaps some lock Sheilds then? Or ones that require a hex key. But who's going in the plant room? Care taker? . No provision for balancing on returns either? Assume each cir is more than one emitter?

Ermi,

I was waiting for you to spot the none balancing on the zones, yes and there are about 5 radiators on each zone, that's why I told you to go back to the zone valve photo, BTW all the snagging has been put right now.

The blowing off of the PRV is rather interesting, you say don't do it, how would you go about replacing the air gap on a Megaflow


Tony

 

[Ermintrude]

Blow it off and replace prv. ££££ though!

 

[happyflyer]

Blow it off and replace prv. ££££ though!

Ermi,

The process for replacing the air bubble in a Megaflow entails manually opening the PRV, it's a standard procedure that you may need to do twice a year,
they don't leak after, its good gear.


Tony

 

[Killy Bing]

Ermi,

The process for replacing the air bubble in a Megaflow entails manually opening the PRV, it's a standard procedure that you may need to do twice a year,
they don't leak after, its good gear.


Tony

but that's half way up the cylinder and its not filled with sludge!!!

 

[happyflyer]

but that's half way up the cylinder and its not filled with sludge!!!

What you are both saying is a boiler PRV is only good for one blow off, jeeez what are they ever making them of, plastic

 

[Killy Bing]

And when you get crud in the seating, prv is dripping, do you leave it or change it?

do you charge the customer or reach into your own pocket?

 

[Nostrum]

What do you size the rads on? If upstairs is off then the rads downstairs will be undersized taking into account the unheated space above, or the rads will be sized in that manner and be over sized when upstairs is heated?

 

[Gray0689]

What do you size the rads on? If upstairs is off then the rads downstairs will be undersized taking into account the unheated space above, or the rads will be sized in that manner and be over sized when upstairs is heated?

Size rads on room as normal

 

[Nostrum]

So what happens when the customers phones you up saying its cold downstairs? Tell them to turn the heating on upstairs? Goes against the reasons for doing a detailed heat loss calc.

i can kind of understand in new build where the insulation between floors is good but for retro?

ive heard the zoning requirements are going to be amended

 

[Gray0689]

So what happens when the customers phones you up saying its cold downstairs? Goes against the reasons for doing a detailed heat loss calc.

You tell them to turn the stat up in that room

 

[Nostrum]

But it could be that the radiator isn't capable of raising the temp as the design heat loss is less than the actual losses because of the unheated areas?

i know this is worst case, but weather compensation could cause this to happen more often.

 

[Gray0689]

But it could be that the radiator isn't capable of raising the temp as the design heat loss is less than the actual losses because of the unheated areas?

i know this is worst case, but weather compensation could cause this to happen more often.

The zones are heated to whatever the temp is set to on stat simple
Your heat loss is per room

 

[Nostrum]

But the emitter is matched to the heat loss of that room based on fabric losses including the surfaces above and below. A colder room upstairs will promote a greater loss than if it were heated. So if you deign the system correctly, and choose a radiator to suit the heat losses of a room with a heated room above. Then run the system with an unheated space above. At the specified outside temperature the emitter will technically be undersized.

How much by will depend on a lot of factors so I'm not sure how much effect it would have, but from a theoretical point of view I struggle to see how you can zone a system and design it to operate in the conditions you have designed it for effectively.

i suppose most people don't give a toss but I like to be given a logical explanation for these regulations that are introduced by some pen pusher.

 

[Gray0689]

Your designed temp is 21 living and 18 bedrooms
But as we all know some people like it higher some lower
Do you factor that into your design no we aim for a set point only
So the room will be heated to that desired temp on stat
If the room above to side or underneath is at a lower temp it may and only may as depends on a lot of things ie insulation even to if the person leaves a door open or closed
We can't factor that fine a detail on it nor would I want to

 

[basildog]

What do you size the rads on? If upstairs is off then the rads downstairs will be undersized taking into account the unheated space above, or the rads will be sized in that manner and be over sized when upstairs is heated?

That asumes conventional construction and have found these days more and more floor spaces are being insulated either for soundproofing or heat loss !
Drives the sparkies mad as cables have to be uprated if insulated !

 

[Nostrum]

I see what your saying but if you look at it on a larger scale, say an older style large detached house, the whole of upstairs could be off on a zone. Therefore you've effectively halved the heat output but the heat loss remains the same. Ok there are surfaces in between these two zones that would reduce the heat loss rate but it is still going to have an effect surely? I struggle to see how the zoning will save any significant amount of energy after factoring the cost of the extra controls in a retro fit. A good idea in principle but flawed in my opinion. A well designed system with correctly sized radiators would be much more beneficial pound for pound.

 

[Gray0689]

I see what your saying but if you look at it on a larger scale, say an older style large detached house, the whole of upstairs could be off on a zone. Therefore you've effectively halved the heat output but the heat loss remains the same. Ok there are surfaces in between these two zones that would reduce the heat loss rate but it is still going to have an effect surely? I struggle to see how the zoning will save any significant amount of energy after factoring the cost of the extra controls in a retro fit. A good idea in principle but flawed in my opinion. A well designed system with correctly sized radiators would be much more beneficial pound for pound.

On a retrofit the best money spent is on insulation before anything else

 

[Nostrum]

That asumes conventional construction and have found these days more and more floor spaces are being insulated either for soundproofing or heat loss !
Drives the sparkies mad as cables have to be uprated if insulated !

yes and I would completely agree with this in a new build as said before, I'm questioning its effectiveness in a retro fit scenario as they try to imply in part L.

 

[Nostrum]

On a retrofit the best money spent is on insulation before anything else

the basics, of course, but the costs of ripping up the floors between intermediate levels and internal walls would be prohibitive.

 

[Gray0689]

the basics, of course, but the costs of ripping up the floors between intermediate levels and internal walls would be prohibitive.

Insulated plasterboard on walls and ceilings

 

[basildog]

yes and I would completely agree with this in a new build as said before, I'm questioning its effectiveness in a retro fit scenario as they try to imply in part L.

I have never done New build apart from extensions but have done a lot of total refurbs where floors are all up !
I guess all jobs really need to be treated on their own but as we all know this will never fit in to some pen pushers litle boxes ?

 

[Nostrum]

Probably even more cost to that, removing architraves and skirting, electrical fittings, radiators, fixing, skimming, redecoration it would be cheaper to move house!

 

[basildog]

Probably even more cost to that, removing architraves and skirting, electrical fittings, radiators, fixing, skimming, redecoration it would be cheaper to move house!

With the lot I used to work for they change houses as often as wives and money really is not something they worry about until they have to pay you !
If the Feng Shui master says wooden floors then wooden floors wifey gets !

 

[Gray0689]

Probably even more cost to that, removing architraves and skirting, electrical fittings, radiators, fixing, skimming, redecoration it would be cheaper to move house!

It's for a total refurb only

 

[Ermintrude]

Your designed temp is 21 living and 18 bedrooms
But as we all know some people like it higher some lower
Do you factor that into your design no we aim for a set point only
So the room will be heated to that desired temp on stat
If the room above to side or underneath is at a lower temp it may and only may as depends on a lot of things ie insulation even to if the person leaves a door open or closed
We can't factor that fine a detail on it nor would I want to

Will just take longer to hit set point that's the beauty of the zoned system. All zones reach desired temp no matter what the external conditions (within reason) all that changes is the lag (time to reach set point)

 

[happyflyer]

There will never be a better time to fit heating controls gas and electricity prices set to rise substantially every year for the 17 years, over the rate of inflation, not my words,
your governments.

 

[happyflyer]

Arctic winter conditions are on the way, gas has just gone up 10% across the piece, long range forecast long hard winter, now do you think full house zoning is a good or bad idea. We are importing LPG from Africa to top up our failing North Sea gas fields, when are people going to listen, I will bet there will be gas shortages in 2014, if they are right with the long range forecast there will no doubt be power cuts.

 

[Leo21]

Arctic winter conditions are on the way, gas has just gone up 10% across the piece, long range forecast long hard winter, now do you think full house zoning is a good or bad idea. We are importing LPG from Africa to top up our failing North Sea gas fields, when are people going to listen, I will bet there will be gas shortages in 2014, if they are right with the long range forecast there will no doubt be power cuts.

Great idea, just not cost effective unless new build.

 

[happyflyer]

Great idea, just not cost effective unless new build.

Me no understand Leo please explain????:thinking:

 

[Leo21]

Cost of new install in existing house : circa £4000

cost of new instal in existing house (zoned) : circa £4600

customer " I'll take option one please"

 

[happyflyer]

Cost of new install in existing house : circa £4000

cost of new instal in existing house (zoned) : circa £4600

customer " I'll take option one please"

Try this for size Leo, gas saved in first year £600, your move!!!

 

[dancinplumba]

Insulate, Insulate, Insulate......

 

[happyflyer]

Insulate, Insulate, Insulate......

yes and still zone control or it will overheat

 

[Leo21]

Try this for size Leo, gas saved in first year £600, your move!!!

Your having a laugh, gas saved first year £80 max. Third year synchron motor fails. Costs £95 to repair. Your move. Oh and my combined gas and lecky bil isl £1200 with a standard efficiency boiler. So how your going to save £600 is beyond me.

 

[happyflyer]

Your having a laugh, gas saved first year £80 max. Third year synchron motor fails. Costs £95 to repair. Your move. Oh and my combined gas and lecky bil isl £1200 with a standard efficiency boiler. So how your going to save £600 is beyond me.

Leo,

Does your mam pay the gas bill at your house, I live under a stone and it cost me more than £600 a year for gas

 

[dancinplumba]

Zoning is pointless in yer average 2 up 2 down.

 

[Leo21]

Leo,

Does your mam pay the gas bill at your house, I live under a stone and it cost me more than £600 a year for gas

Ive got it zoned:dita:

 

[dancinplumba]

And only works if doors are kept shut

 

[happyflyer]

Zoning is pointless in yer average 2 up 2 down.

dancin,

It all relative, and someone who as a 2 up 2 is probably on relative earnings and I say probably having started my married life in one, I had no money then, the answer
to all this is simple zoning ain't going up in price the rate gas is.

 

[Nostrum]

Please explain the estimated savings happy flyer, how have you come to this figure?

 

[happyflyer]

Please explain the estimated savings happy flyer, how have you come to this figure?

Nostrum,

Try this for size Leo, gas saved in first year £600, your move!!!

It was a mere statement not and estimate, how could I estimate it when I don't know what the said gas bill was anyway, I just know that full house zoning saves money,
time and temperature control of every room in the house is the future, maybe you can't see it just yet, but you will. When I was a lad car did 25 mpg at best and petrol was 20 p gallon,
am I painting the right picture, cars do 60 MPG and petrol £6.00 gallon.

I must be the only person on this forum who believes that full house zoning saves money and is a good investment or you are all winding me up!!!

 

[Nostrum]

Not really, but I base my opinions on fact not a figure plucked out of the sky.

£600 equates to over 13,000 kwh's of gas at 4.5p/kwh. Based on Ofgems estimations, the average house uses between 16,000-20,000 kwh annually for space heating AND hot water, I find your estimation a touch on the optimistic side?

 

[Leo21]

Not really, but I base my opinions on fact not a figure plucked out of the sky.

£600 equates to over 13,000 kwh's of gas at 4.5p/kwh. Based on Ofgems estimations, the average house uses between 16,000-20,000 kwh annually for space heating AND hot water, I find your estimation a touch on the optimistic side?

Bloody hell Nostrum, who knew!

 

[happyflyer]

Not really, but I base my opinions on fact not a figure plucked out of the sky.

£600 equates to over 13,000 kwh's of gas at 4.5p/kwh. Based on Ofgems estimations, the average house uses between 16,000-20,000 kwh annually for space heating AND hot water, I find your estimation a touch on the optimistic side?

I recollect that one chap last week said his gas usage was 42,000 kwh, plucked out the sky yes but conceivable in London, mind you this is not what me and you are talking about, we are talking about Mr & Mrs Average 3 bed, look at it this way and see if this helps. Cost of 8 zone valves fitted lets say £1000.00, lets say it saves £150.00 per year, now let put that £1000 in TSB on high interest at 2% £20 per interest per annum tax paid, get the maths now. It might pay to borrow the £1000 from TSB to have the valves fitted.

 

[Ermintrude]

And only works if doors are kept shut

My hoose is zoned and communal areas do get bit warm if all zones are on and all doors open but then upper floors just don't come on.

 

[happyflyer]

My hoose is zoned and communal areas do get bit warm if all zones are on and all doors open but then upper floors just don't come on.

Ermi,

I know me and you don't always see things eye to eye but you must be the next only person of this forum who understands that whole house zoning really works, it is refreshing to
see you taking the initiative to zone your house I know they are not all time zone and temp, but it would not take much to do it.

Good luck with your lower than average running costs Ermi


Tony

 

[Nostrum]

£150 is still a bit optimistic if you ask me. Using the highest average figure of 20,000kwh - 4000kwh for hot water allowance so 16,000kwh. A 10% saving say for zoning would be a fair guess I would say? So 1600kwh annually x 0.045 = £72

So, the customer pays £1000 for zoning the payback (without any allowance for price increase) is approx 13.5 years. There's also no allowance for maintenance.

larger houses yes, averages houses no in my opinion.

 

[happyflyer]

£150 is still a bit optimistic if you ask me. Using the highest average figure of 20,000kwh - 4000kwh for hot water allowance so 16,000kwh. A 10% saving say for zoning would be a fair guess I would say? So 1600kwh annually x 0.045 = £72

So, the customer pays £1000 for zoning the payback (without any allowance for price increase) is approx 13.5 years.

Have taken into account gas rising at 10% per year or maybe even 15% per year, who knows, this is like rolling rocks down hill and pushing them back up again, just best sticking to whatever you do now hey, that's what we have always done. I don't think Ermi has wasted his time with what he has done and he doesn't either.

 

[Leo21]

In bigger properties, definitely yes. Your average three bed, no, it won't pay you back.

 

[Nostrum]

Not really happy flyer, just because I don't agree with your wildly optimistic figures doesn't mean I'm a closed book. In fact quite the opposite. How though, do you expect to give your customers honest and accurate advice if the figures don't stack up? Do you expect them (or us) to believe you just because you said so? That's not how I operate, rather I like to give them some solid figures to dwell on and decide whether its want they want or not.

Simple zoning doesn't work for other reasons, for example zoning bedrooms independently to living space is fine until you have children that go to bed at 6-7-8pm. Most wouldn't put the kids to bed in a cold room to save a few quid, you might?

complicated zoning costs a fortune and I still don't see the benefits as a retro fit with un insulated intermediate floors, losing heat from downstairs to upstairs, educating the customers to close all the doors etc most don't even turn the lights off when they leave a room!

 

[happyflyer]

Not really happy flyer, just because I don't agree with your wildly optimistic figures doesn't mean I'm a closed book. In fact quite the opposite. How though, do you expect to give your customers honest and accurate advice if the figures don't stack up? Do you expect them (or us) to believe you just because you said so? That's not how I operate, rather I like to give them some solid figures to dwell on and decide whether its want they want or not.

Simple zoning doesn't work for other reasons, for example zoning bedrooms independently to living space is fine until you have children that go to bed at 6-7-8pm. Most wouldn't put the kids to bed in a cold room to save a few quid, you might?

complicated zoning costs a fortune and I still don't see the benefits as a retro fit with un insulated intermediate floors, losing heat from downstairs to upstairs, educating the customers to close all the doors etc most don't even turn the lights off when they leave a room!

Nostrum,

After all this above I am beat and whacked, my head hurts, Churchill said " you can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time" with that little well known gem I rest my my case, I will go with you for now, heating controls if they be temp or time & temp will never ever catch on, not worth a toss, is that better, I am a Nostrum convert, I have seen the light, just let it all hang out, peace man, use as much energy as you like, someone else will always find more, they always do....but not shale gas we don't like that one.

Wonder if I can convert Ermi, take all that zoning tosh out he installed, wonder where he got that idea from, college maybe, reading to many books and glossy magazine off plumbing trade counters. :aureola:

 

[Ermintrude]

Ermi,

I know me and you don't always see things eye to eye but you must be the next only person of this forum who understands that whole house zoning really works, it is refreshing to
see you taking the initiative to zone your house I know they are not all time zone and temp, but it would not take much to do it.

Good luck with your lower than average running costs Ermi


Tony

All my zones are time and temp with Myson mprtrf controllers in almost every room. Downstairs loo is on same ufh as kitchen tho. It's expensive to do £300 per room ish excluding labour

 

[happyflyer]

All my zones are time and temp with Myson mprtrf controllers in almost every room. Downstairs loo is on same ufh as kitchen tho. It's expensive to do £300 per room ish excluding labour

Now you have done it in Ermi these guys will believe you rather than me but £300 a zone, never, I wouldn't like you to come and work for me, your lunch breaks are longer than the working day, I suppose you are good, but not fast yet, that will come with practice, still keep plunging at the energy conservation, its only energy conversation on here.

 

[Leo21]

Now you have done it in Ermi these guys will believe you rather than me but £300 a zone, never, I wouldn't like you to come and work for me, your lunch breaks are longer than the working day, I suppose you are good, but not fast yet, that will come with practice, still keep plunging at the energy conservation, its only energy conversation on here.

Dear Mr Happyflyer, chill out. A lot of us don't agree with you accept it and move on darling.

 

[happyflyer]

Now I am being bullied and I have ever right to put my point across as forcefully as you and you accept mine point of view you are not on your own with your slant on
the none sensible use of a finite resource, energy.

 

[Leo21]

It's not my intention to bully anyone! If you feel bullied by me I am sorry for making you feel that way. You are obviously a knowledgable engineer, but I this case I don't fully agree with you.

 

[SimonG]

Now I am being bullied and I have ever right to put my point across as forcefully as you and you accept mine point of view you are not on your own with your slant on
the none sensible use of a finite resource, energy.

Everybody has a right to an opinion on the forum imho. However nobody has to accept anyone's opinion. A discussion about people's different views is good and having read this thread I think saying that you are being bullied is wrong, people just don't agree with you. Doesn't make them right or you right, it's just life. If everybody agreed with each other it would be a really boring world.

 

[Gray0689]

My hoose is zoned and communal areas do get bit warm if all zones are on and all doors open but then upper floors just don't come on.

My house is zoned and doors open because it gets to hot lol