Hi. My house, in north London, has a Sime Superior 100 boiler. Last year I noticed the water pressure was slowly dropping (in all the taps, and the shower), so at the start of December I got a plumber out, who said we needed a new pressure valve for the boiler. I was told the new valve was about £200 ish, and I was charged £498 (inc vat) in total for the work. The plumber came out twice; firstly to diagnose the problem, which he did very quickly, and secondly to bring and fit the new part. I assumed the fitting was complex, but he fitted the part really quickly, in 30-45 minutes, or so. I thought the cost seemed excessive, especially when i saw how quickly it was fitted. Please could someone tell me if I've paid a far price, or if I've been ripped off?! Annoyingly, only a month later, the boiler has stopped working. So my second question is, can I make the plumber come back again and fix it? Thank you. Vic
- Thread starter missfrances
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Welcome to the forum. Although you can post in any forum, the USA forum is here in case of local regs or laws
S
Sharp Point
Minus the vat is just over £400, £200 of that is parts and say 3 hours for the diagnosis, going to merchants and then installing = £60 odd an hour and at London prices that’s cheap.
So yes it is fair
So yes it is fair
How far has the plumber come to get to your house? Were you happy with his service? Clean & tidy? Is the symptoms the same as before? Even though it is the chances are it’s a different issue with the same symptoms.
It doesn’t seem too bad a price to me tbh.
£200 is for the parts could mean it was slightly more, he’s going to put a mark up plus there might have been delivery costs, or if not he has had to take time out of his day to collect parts then return to your home.
Charge will be for a min of 3 hours I would assume, 1 hr to travel & diagnos fault, 1 hour to order/collect parts & 1 hour (min) for install plus then time for paperwork.
That’s my thoughts & how I bill up on the North of Scotland & I know London can be harder/more costly to get about.
Edit : Bogrodder beat me to it.
It doesn’t seem too bad a price to me tbh.
£200 is for the parts could mean it was slightly more, he’s going to put a mark up plus there might have been delivery costs, or if not he has had to take time out of his day to collect parts then return to your home.
Charge will be for a min of 3 hours I would assume, 1 hr to travel & diagnos fault, 1 hour to order/collect parts & 1 hour (min) for install plus then time for paperwork.
That’s my thoughts & how I bill up on the North of Scotland & I know London can be harder/more costly to get about.
Edit : Bogrodder beat me to it.
Contact the installer of the part he should stand by his repair , what part did he change pressure valve? Post a picture please . Kop
You would have to pay me a lot more than that to work on a Sime boiler.
Either way, it is an old cheap boiler, what makes you think that the work carried out in early December has caused it to stop working now? Or do you believe that because an engineer lays hands on this pile of poo it is guarantees not to fail for the ++next years.
Simple question to you how many years service have you had out of it ??
I don't understand what part has been replaced ?
Either way, it is an old cheap boiler, what makes you think that the work carried out in early December has caused it to stop working now? Or do you believe that because an engineer lays hands on this pile of poo it is guarantees not to fail for the ++next years.
Simple question to you how many years service have you had out of it ??
Thanks for the response. The boiler is about 15 years old, but I hadn't realised it was a 'pile of poo'. Thanks for letting me know this Chris Watkins! It was already in the property when we bought the house, and it looked like a decent boiler to me. But as I'm not a plumber, I wouldn't know a good boiler from a bad one! Unfortunately I don't have a photograph of the part. All I was told was it needed a new pressure valve (costing £200). I'll contact the plumbers again tomorrow and try to find out a little more about the work and the part that was replaced. Maybe they'll be willing to come back and inspect the boiler again.
W
Welder
MissF.
Please do not think ill of my colleagues. Our situation here, as FOC advisors, is that many people come here to try to validate a form of thinking that is largely dictated by a genuinely biased media.
When those thoughts are not validated people become defensive and huffy - unlike you.
The reality of plumbing in the 21st century is that all of us 'practitioners' are played like puppets by manufacturers. Of course it is us who then have to communicate the 'bad' news in whatever form it comes to you our customer and, human nature being what it is, the messenger is lined up and metaphorically 'shot at dawn' despite being perfectly innocent of any crime whatsoever.
As a consequence, we tend to get a little defensive...
When Chris refers to a 'pile of poo' he is using a colloquialism which translated means this make of boiler has a very poor reputation for reliability and, let's be polite here, is 'lacking in support' from its manufacturer. Further translation means we get even more flack about this type than many others 🙄
If I may be so bold, in future try asking the plumber how his price is made up when he quotes you. If, by some chance, they are being some form of dishonest it would send a shot across their bows. If not, by asking it in an open way it is simply a question not some form of accusation.
Two last things.
1 - As an intelligent person please please please do not assume that because someone worked on one part of your system, anything that happens at any point in the future is automatically their fault. To do that will instantly destroy any relationship and trust the engineer has in you and you'll have to start again. Far better to ask an open question and ask if or how they might be interrelated.
2 - Take an interest, and you'll be surprised what you pick up, and more importantly the engineer will be far more inclined to help you.
Hope that clarifies somewhat!
Have fun and please come back to ask again when you need help.
Lastly, sorry to go on 🙂
Please do not think ill of my colleagues. Our situation here, as FOC advisors, is that many people come here to try to validate a form of thinking that is largely dictated by a genuinely biased media.
When those thoughts are not validated people become defensive and huffy - unlike you.
The reality of plumbing in the 21st century is that all of us 'practitioners' are played like puppets by manufacturers. Of course it is us who then have to communicate the 'bad' news in whatever form it comes to you our customer and, human nature being what it is, the messenger is lined up and metaphorically 'shot at dawn' despite being perfectly innocent of any crime whatsoever.
As a consequence, we tend to get a little defensive...
When Chris refers to a 'pile of poo' he is using a colloquialism which translated means this make of boiler has a very poor reputation for reliability and, let's be polite here, is 'lacking in support' from its manufacturer. Further translation means we get even more flack about this type than many others 🙄
If I may be so bold, in future try asking the plumber how his price is made up when he quotes you. If, by some chance, they are being some form of dishonest it would send a shot across their bows. If not, by asking it in an open way it is simply a question not some form of accusation.
Two last things.
1 - As an intelligent person please please please do not assume that because someone worked on one part of your system, anything that happens at any point in the future is automatically their fault. To do that will instantly destroy any relationship and trust the engineer has in you and you'll have to start again. Far better to ask an open question and ask if or how they might be interrelated.
2 - Take an interest, and you'll be surprised what you pick up, and more importantly the engineer will be far more inclined to help you.
Hope that clarifies somewhat!
Have fun and please come back to ask again when you need help.
Lastly, sorry to go on 🙂
Rob Foster
Esteemed
The engineer was GSR not an anybody, you state he diagnosed collected and fitted this part. The system has gone down but crucially it might not be the new part whch has failed
if he was as good as you say, ask him back to see whats wrong this time. Just because he was quick, efficient in my book does not mean you were overcharged. You choose to dwell in London the labour charge will be higher up to £125 + vat per hour I know
Rob Foster aka centralheatking
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Welder
The English language is a thing of real beauty KOP and, in my view worth using to its fullest extent. Or, put another way, yes!!! 🙄😀
Thanks for your comments. The original plumbing company sent someone back today, but they sent a different plumber. I'm told the part changed back in December was called a 'Pressure Reducing Valve' (see image attached). I explained to today's plumber that I was charged £500, and he pulled a face ie) wide eyes, look of shock! I laughed, and told him I also pulled the same face when I was charged £500. He then looked a bit awkward, and tried to suggest the first plumber changed another part as well (although he couldn't tell me what), but that's not what I remember being told back in December. In December, surprised at the cost, I requested a breakdown of costs, and a receipt, but nothing was emailed to me. Today I again asked for the breakdown, but I'm now being told by the office manager that the company has just 'changed owners' and they have no invoices. All a bit mysterious. The office manager says the 'fan' was also changed in December. Maybe shes right, but this wasn't explained to me at the time, and its odd that no paperwork is available.
Rob Foster
Esteemed
oh dear, that prv looks like a honeywell do4 ...the best prv
on the European domestic market , it costs well less than £50.00, micky mouse ones cost
less than £10.00. I cannot remember the spec but I am not sure it should be vertically installed...but others will correct me.
Rob Foster aka centralheatking
on the European domestic market , it costs well less than £50.00, micky mouse ones cost
less than £10.00. I cannot remember the spec but I am not sure it should be vertically installed...but others will correct me.
Rob Foster aka centralheatking
Rob Foster
Esteemed
wait until the others weigh in later...just watch and wait I might be wrong ...chking
W
Welder
Well! That image makes me look and feel a fool.
Can you do me a wider shot/shots of all the cupboard please?
Time to roll my sleeves up...😡
Can you do me a wider shot/shots of all the cupboard please?
Time to roll my sleeves up...😡
Rob Foster
Esteemed
I think I am going to get battered here ...oh dear the image of YD rolling his sleves up
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Welder
Why? Heaven forbid old boy not you!
Definitely, but as yet prospectively, the installer. I'll keep my powder dry for now old bean. I do like a Big Bang 😎😎😎
Rob Foster
Esteemed
one day I will tell you about some big bangs we did when we were at uni ...one term we were taught ballistics and explosives
and......centralheatking
W
Welder
Unfortunately the only other photos I have on my phone is the BEFORE pictures ie) before the new pressure valve was installed. The photo shows some of the layout of the boiler though. There is also a large water tank on the right, not in shot. Note: please ignore plug-in radiator at the bottom of pic, which is just being stored in the cupboard!
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Welder
The hot water cylinder is situated on the right side of the boiler, but on the floor. Its not in the photo, but its just right of the red and white small cylinders.
W
Welder
I did think I may have been a bit unkind to the OP earlier, don't get me wrong I am dead against those people who take advantage of customers however some people need to look at themselves before they turn to others for help.
The part that you have had replaced Miss F is a cold water combination valve set, it has absolutely nothing to do with the boiler that you say has now stoped working. It is installed on the mains cold water supply to the unvented cylinder next to the boiler.
Now I understand that you are not a Plumber / Heating engineer, in the same way that I am not an accountant but when I have to use their services I did my research, got there prices but most importantly of all when they did work for me I paid attention to what was done & said as it may have implications for me.
If you have no interest in Plumbing problems that is fine you pay a professional to come & make them go away, unfortunately what you can't then do is complain about a poorly done / overcharged jobs as you have no idea what was actually done & paid for.
The part that you have had replaced Miss F is a cold water combination valve set, it has absolutely nothing to do with the boiler that you say has now stoped working. It is installed on the mains cold water supply to the unvented cylinder next to the boiler.
Now I understand that you are not a Plumber / Heating engineer, in the same way that I am not an accountant but when I have to use their services I did my research, got there prices but most importantly of all when they did work for me I paid attention to what was done & said as it may have implications for me.
If you have no interest in Plumbing problems that is fine you pay a professional to come & make them go away, unfortunately what you can't then do is complain about a poorly done / overcharged jobs as you have no idea what was actually done & paid for.
PS.
to replace that valve set would mean draining down the hot water cylinder completely altering the pipework has they did not have a direct replacement all because it as not installed in correctly in the first place as per manufacturers instructions & Building / Water Regulations.
to replace that valve set would mean draining down the hot water cylinder completely altering the pipework has they did not have a direct replacement all because it as not installed in correctly in the first place as per manufacturers instructions & Building / Water Regulations.
W
Welder
So, we have a boiler and an unvented (high pressure hot water) cylinder which is heated by the boiler.
The part replaced, reduces the incoming water pressure into the cylinder. Part of that is a safety device called a pressure relief valve (PRV). The flexible hose that is twisted that comes from the red topped PRV should be mounted higher so that any discharge from it goes through the 'tundish' which is the open sided plastic thing.
That is why I have asked for more pictures. I want to deliver a definitive answer she can use.
The part replaced, reduces the incoming water pressure into the cylinder. Part of that is a safety device called a pressure relief valve (PRV). The flexible hose that is twisted that comes from the red topped PRV should be mounted higher so that any discharge from it goes through the 'tundish' which is the open sided plastic thing.
That is why I have asked for more pictures. I want to deliver a definitive answer she can use.
Still presuming its a female the lady has paid (not over charged) for for a incorrect repair. If a repair is carried out to a system in any condition we always price to bring it to a standard that is correct. Thats obviously not the case in this instance.
Yorkshire Dave - I'm not at the property at the moment, but will take some more photos and post them here tomorrow. Thanks for your help.
Read that 3 times and not crystal clear what you are trying to say.
W
Welder
Yes, I'm a lady, a landlady. But before you decide I must be evil, with a giant property empire, I only moved out of our house when a problem neighbour moved in next door, and caused chaos. Without going into too much detail, we had to move out, and quickly! Anyway, it means keeping track of the work done by tradepeople is that bit harder, although I always try to do as much research as I can. The plumbing company in question are on trustatrader.com, with 458 reviews and an average score of 4.92. I trusted them and what they told me. I also got another opinion before I used them. RPM - thank you - I plan to look at the companies house records to check out the mysterious change of ownership story. Will post some better photos tomorrow.
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Welder
We'll believe you this time 😀
The more information we have the more we can help you. You will find that most here hate idiots (plenty on both sides of the cheque book) who would bring our industry into disrepute or gratuitously knock what we do and how we do it. So, help us help you and you'll win in all manner of ways 😉
There is also a section on this site where you can post a job for someone on here to price it for you. The only caveat to those seeking to work for you is that personally I'd look at what they have posted. You will soon be able to determine their ethos and values.
🙂
But if the OP asked for a breakdown of costs and hasn't had it, that is not her fault. To use an analogy, if I get my van repaired and don't understand what has been changed, it would seem reasonable to me to have a brief description of the work carried out even if I am not personally able to understand that description.
Rob Foster
Esteemed
great point Ric one which has been missed, so by not being provided with one the op might think more has been done than in reality ....it is a factor of modern society to leave out the detail, but as you state v. necessary ....regards Rob Foster
aka centralheatking
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Welder
Not by all Rob. This is why I have asked for more images.
Conjecture is pointless so I want as much fact as can be mustered notwithstanding we cannot see the job.
Only by seeing exactly what has been done (if that is possible) can one determine whether anyone is potentially unreasonably or over charged.
I would agree you have every right to receive a receipt which details the work carried out, most of us do that as a matter of course.
More to the point would you book your van in for repair without asking what was likely wrong & the likely costs? Again my repairer calls me with an update on what is required to seek my agreement before carrying out the work.
Maybe I am being a bit disingenuous to Vic but given that the post began with talk about a gas boiler not working, when the original problem was with an un-vented cylinder & it ended with -
I hope you & she can understand my scepticism which is born out of Landlords/ladies not wishing to take an interest in their properties or tenants, or at least only when a large bill arrives.
And yes the work carried out is of a poor standard, existing nut left on pipe, wrong valve installed (IMHO) & installation defects not corrected etc. If they spent a bit more time (& in some cases money) in the first place finding a quality repair company who had the G3 we would all be the happier.
"caveat emptor"
Perhaps the more important point is that the cowboys would not be getting our work!!!!
You'll see from my thread in 'heating engineers wanted' that finding good tradesmen is difficult. Often I find recommendations tend to find you morally decent people who are cheap, but not necessarily any good at what they do.
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Welder
Your point is well made Chris. However I'm not yet convinced that a 'cheap job' was sought. Truth is, you & I will never know. However what we can be sure of is demonstrating, via our supportive actions on here, that our trade is essentially honest and it's worth cultivating a relationship based on mutual trust with 'your' plumber.
Thanks for all your feedback. I've taken some more photos today. It was a bit tricky to take decent snaps, as the boiler & water tank are situated inside a cupboard, with lots of pipework, and the cupboard is in a small utility room. Anyway, hopefully these images will help in some way. Will split over a few posts, so I don't crash the system ...
That silver braided hose coming out of the bottom of the valve goes where?
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Welder
Miss F. Can you possibly get a shot of what the flexible connector connects 'to' behind the red pressure vessel please anlong with the rest of the pipe it connects into? Sorry, but it's rather important as you are renting out.
I will ask my tenant Tom to take a snap behind the red vessel, as I didn't check this myself earlier. Sorry, there's a lot of pipework in the cupboard, so it was hard to capture everything.
Here are a few other pics I took earlier, but I'll try to get the one you need from my tenant Tom later ...
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Welder
Will do! By the way, I can assure you (and Chris) I didn't want a 'cheap' job. I just wanted a good, honest job. Our house is lovely. Its our home, and we take great care of it.
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Welder
Fact is, we are all learning. We who try to help, get sick to death of people who complain that they get a poor job when they refused to pay to have it done properly. Personally I do not think of you and your issues in that light. As mentioned, we're all going to learn.😉
I wasn't suggesting you were Vic (said some).
I think we have seen enough to be able to say you need to find another good company what understands unvented systems & has their Part G3 /un-vented ticket.
There are a number of installation faults that need attention & the cylinder need to be serviced, so forget the first company, you paid over the odds for poor work & I assume they did not advise you on the existing faults.
Start afresh & put it down to experience.
3 port valve installed with no signs of the additional 2 port required. No signs that the expansion vessel was touched etc etc.
Chris - I have found another plumber, this time recommended to me, but he's not available until Thursday this week. I'm meeting him at my property midday on Thursday.
The original plumbers did not advise on any existing faults, infact they haven't even given me any paperwork! Yesterday they were trying to tell me they also changed a boiler 'fan' in December, but today they say they didn't. The story keeps changing. I've requested a breakdown from them 3 times now.
I posted on here originally as I was concerned I'd been ripped off, and wanted some advise. Since then there's been some suggestion that the (overcharged) valve installed has been fitted wrongly, which is worrying! I've continued posting as I thought it would be wise to get a second opinion.
The original plumbers did not advise on any existing faults, infact they haven't even given me any paperwork! Yesterday they were trying to tell me they also changed a boiler 'fan' in December, but today they say they didn't. The story keeps changing. I've requested a breakdown from them 3 times now.
I posted on here originally as I was concerned I'd been ripped off, and wanted some advise. Since then there's been some suggestion that the (overcharged) valve installed has been fitted wrongly, which is worrying! I've continued posting as I thought it would be wise to get a second opinion.
So let them do there stuff, you are more clued up now so see what they say, get costs etc.
Although I am still unsure is it the boiler or the cylinder that isn't working now?
Rob Foster
Esteemed
Rob Foster
Esteemed
ok ...can you scan and post the invoices please on here I/we will look at them ..Rob Foster
aka centralheatking so maybe you paid...cash ! with no record
please advise
I did not pay cash! I paid by card, over the phone. I have a record on my bank statement of the payment made for £498 to the company. I requested the plumbers email me the paperwork on that day, including a breakdown, as I was shocked by the price, but they never did, and now they're saying they don't have any invoices because of a change of ownership of the business! Yesterday they agreed to email me a breakdown, but I'm still waiting for it. I think I could be waiting a long time! As for the next plumber, who I'm meeting on Thursday, happy to post his advice.
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Welder
TBH, I do not understand why you are even entering into this type of discussion. It's both annoying and distracting so rise above it.
If you want chapter and verse about what is wrong and, most importantly, how to fix it just post what has been asked for please. We will then set you right with something you can action rather than pontificate about.
Sorry to be rude but I've not got time to waste. Your choice.
Rob Foster
Esteemed
ok MissF... basically there is no paper trail on this one so far, no
recipts for the work carried out
and it might seem no records of whom helped you ...surely you took their GSF number and telephone etc ...centrakheatking
Rob Foster
Esteemed
I agree YD. we are wasting our time in a wally ...I am out ...but will watch. chking
Rob Foster
Esteemed
I agree YD. we are wasting our time in a wally ...I am out ...but will watch. chking
Rob Foster
Esteemed
oops posted 3x sorry maybe I was getting bored chking
lets get on with the next real problems hey.
Thanks Yorkshire Dave. I've been trying to rise above it! Getting a little upset. I visited the house today just to take some better images of the pipework, and I've now asked Tom (tenant) to take an extra photo behind the red cylinder. I'll have to wait for him to get back to me.
Rob Foster
Esteemed
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Welder
People just don't do that Rob. We all want to believe we've got a 'good un' and there's no need to worry 🙁
Rob Foster
Esteemed
you and I must meet up I think
...I can travel ..after march when it gets lighter .. your call
Rob Foster ..whats your drunking place ....deliberate miss spell ! ...Rob Foster
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Welder
I agree.
I tried to open a conversation with you earlier today but was told I couldn't 🙁 Any idea why?
Have you blocked me again 😉
FWIW, if the business has changed ownership then I would usually expect that the business still exists and its records, assets, and liabilities will pass on to the new owner. While I can understand that certain details might be lost, anything contractual and recent should still be there! Sounds like you are being fobbed off.
We've all been there. Recently my van got scraped while parked on my own drive and, at the same time, my fence was knocked over by a contractor working for Essex County Council. Despite plenty of forensic evidence, the police was uninterested and nothing got sorted. But I dealt with the problem: repaired the fence and van and got on with my life. I will raise the issue at a council meeting about how contractors should be selected more carefully, but in a way, it's good that I didn't make a claim on the contractor as my insurance did not go up. Similarly, I would suggest that if you have written to the company and had no proper reply, you concentrate on the current problem and worry about what you were charged another time when you're less annoyed.
If Dave and Rob are meeting at some point, then I would be interested in joining them if they are interested? PM me if there a small social and you want me there as I think you would both be interesting to meet.
We've all been there. Recently my van got scraped while parked on my own drive and, at the same time, my fence was knocked over by a contractor working for Essex County Council. Despite plenty of forensic evidence, the police was uninterested and nothing got sorted. But I dealt with the problem: repaired the fence and van and got on with my life. I will raise the issue at a council meeting about how contractors should be selected more carefully, but in a way, it's good that I didn't make a claim on the contractor as my insurance did not go up. Similarly, I would suggest that if you have written to the company and had no proper reply, you concentrate on the current problem and worry about what you were charged another time when you're less annoyed.
If Dave and Rob are meeting at some point, then I would be interested in joining them if they are interested? PM me if there a small social and you want me there as I think you would both be interesting to meet.
Rob Foster
Esteemed
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Welder
Enough already. I want to get on with my life... 🙄
So, let's look at the issue you posted where your water pressure was dropping so you had the repair for £500 carried out.
It is obvious that the 'control block' (the new part consisting of a pressure reducing valve and pressure relief valve) is new. Based on the fact that you've not had any maintenance carried out on your unvented cylinder to that point, it is quite likely that the filter inside the pressure reducing valve had become blocked leaving you with a much lower flow rate - which you would describe as a loss of 'pressure'. As it would be completely calcified (bunged up) the correct resolution was applied. That is, to fit a new control block.
Herein lies a problem. A non manufacturers part would cost no more than £50. Adding 25% is reasonable so a parts bill of £70.
IF it were a 'genuine' part (read further stitch up) from the manufacturer then it could well be double that. All in all tho, nowhere near £200.
As you are in London, the most expensive plumbers are Pimlico Heating. They charge £157 per hour. So, your maximum labour charge should have been approx £150. Again nowhere near the £300 you were charged.
Moving on. Your system is a mess. It needs urgently resolving in order to be both compliant and safe.
As a landlord, you have a legal obligation to have it appropriately serviced, but you also have a duty of care.
What you need, is an experienced G3 engineer to look at your system and to set it right. You will need a full service on it to make sure it is fit for purpose and working most efficiently. This will involve some pipework modifications to make it comply with regulations and to remove your neck from the noose should anything go wrong and it harm someone, or do damage to your home.
Insurers look for things like this in order to escape their moral responsibilities. If you had a water leak on the hot side, insurers may well ask to see the cylinders maintenance history. If you cannot provide it then they can, and do in my experience, simply walk away from the claim due to YOU not carrying out required maintenance.
The fact you simply did not know means nothing. It's entirely your responsibility to find out what you don't even know to ask about 🙄
I strongly suspect that the engineer who turned up was NOT G3 qualified. Obviously I cannot know, so IMHO, it should form a line of enquiry from you to them as to the person attending's appropriateness of qualifications. The reason you have a right to know, is the poor state of the cylinder installation and its lack of servicing. Every G3 engineer I have ever met would have pointed out all of these things when there or reported post event simply to cover their backsides 🙂 Further, the engineer should NOT have worked on it if unqualified.
It is NOT dangerous in the short term so do not panic.
It does however need fixing urgently and appropriate resolutions applied. Please make sure he/she checks the rating of the control block components even though they are new. They MUST be rated the same as original to comply with safety accreditations.
Overall, it's a bit of a bugger's muddle really. The good news is that you are now placed to both understand what was and to move forward with some considerable confidence.
You have now learned that as a landlord your head is in a noose continually. You really must both investigate and take seriously those various responsibilities but, unfortunately, agents also try to BS you by wittering on about aspects of things just to scare you - e.g. annual legionella assessments and deep cleans.
Anyway, I hope we have been able to help. When you return, as I know you'll not be able to keep away for our combined charms, you'll be a little wiser. Please update us. 🙂
Sorry it was so long 😡
So, let's look at the issue you posted where your water pressure was dropping so you had the repair for £500 carried out.
It is obvious that the 'control block' (the new part consisting of a pressure reducing valve and pressure relief valve) is new. Based on the fact that you've not had any maintenance carried out on your unvented cylinder to that point, it is quite likely that the filter inside the pressure reducing valve had become blocked leaving you with a much lower flow rate - which you would describe as a loss of 'pressure'. As it would be completely calcified (bunged up) the correct resolution was applied. That is, to fit a new control block.
Herein lies a problem. A non manufacturers part would cost no more than £50. Adding 25% is reasonable so a parts bill of £70.
IF it were a 'genuine' part (read further stitch up) from the manufacturer then it could well be double that. All in all tho, nowhere near £200.
As you are in London, the most expensive plumbers are Pimlico Heating. They charge £157 per hour. So, your maximum labour charge should have been approx £150. Again nowhere near the £300 you were charged.
Moving on. Your system is a mess. It needs urgently resolving in order to be both compliant and safe.
As a landlord, you have a legal obligation to have it appropriately serviced, but you also have a duty of care.
What you need, is an experienced G3 engineer to look at your system and to set it right. You will need a full service on it to make sure it is fit for purpose and working most efficiently. This will involve some pipework modifications to make it comply with regulations and to remove your neck from the noose should anything go wrong and it harm someone, or do damage to your home.
Insurers look for things like this in order to escape their moral responsibilities. If you had a water leak on the hot side, insurers may well ask to see the cylinders maintenance history. If you cannot provide it then they can, and do in my experience, simply walk away from the claim due to YOU not carrying out required maintenance.
The fact you simply did not know means nothing. It's entirely your responsibility to find out what you don't even know to ask about 🙄
I strongly suspect that the engineer who turned up was NOT G3 qualified. Obviously I cannot know, so IMHO, it should form a line of enquiry from you to them as to the person attending's appropriateness of qualifications. The reason you have a right to know, is the poor state of the cylinder installation and its lack of servicing. Every G3 engineer I have ever met would have pointed out all of these things when there or reported post event simply to cover their backsides 🙂 Further, the engineer should NOT have worked on it if unqualified.
It is NOT dangerous in the short term so do not panic.
It does however need fixing urgently and appropriate resolutions applied. Please make sure he/she checks the rating of the control block components even though they are new. They MUST be rated the same as original to comply with safety accreditations.
Overall, it's a bit of a bugger's muddle really. The good news is that you are now placed to both understand what was and to move forward with some considerable confidence.
You have now learned that as a landlord your head is in a noose continually. You really must both investigate and take seriously those various responsibilities but, unfortunately, agents also try to BS you by wittering on about aspects of things just to scare you - e.g. annual legionella assessments and deep cleans.
Anyway, I hope we have been able to help. When you return, as I know you'll not be able to keep away for our combined charms, you'll be a little wiser. Please update us. 🙂
Sorry it was so long 😡
Rob Foster
Esteemed
this type of incompetance by a landlord ..in my experience tends to be the tip of an iceberg,
have you a current landlords and tennants gas safe certificate ? ...show us...are all your smoke alarms ok ? if you are a bona fide landlord then you will have a current inventory produced by an estate agent ..
have you a current landlords and tennants gas safe certificate ? ...show us...are all your smoke alarms ok ? if you are a bona fide landlord then you will have a current inventory produced by an estate agent ..
Rob Foster
Esteemed
W
Welder
Perhaps, Rob, just perhaps this is not the tip of an iceberg but innocent ignorance. If you read through the posts, the lady says the only reason they moved out was because of a rotten neighbour - we all know that feeling! She also says, without prompting, that she still considers this her home. Perhaps, just perhaps, she is letting privately and has not bothered with parasitic agents who, let's face it add ziltch in any way shape or form and charge the Earth for adding so little. I could recount personal stories of straight up agent corruption here - but I won't. 🙄
I totally get where you are coming from and, no doubt like you, have seen the penny pinching scumbag landlords fall flat on their faces - to our great amusement. 😎😎
Not all though are cut from the same cloth and some landlords, the only ones I ever worked for at least, are caring considerate people who deserve far more than the awful tenants often give them.
Perhaps, once again, we might at least wait till the head enters the noose before kicking away the steps 😀
W
Welder
In my humble opinion:. Callefi combination valve Screwfix 1610v £35 bit of pipework 20ish 2hrs Labour Cambridge rates £60 for first hour £40 for subsequent top price £200 yes I am G3 to satisfy drama queens!
W
Welder
As a householder who is following this thread with interest, am I correct in assuming that where the boiler heats an unvented cylinder the plumber should have a G3 certificate? This is not at all clear from Gas Safe site. Maybe it's there but how far am I supposed to drill down? Where does G3 start and stop?
W
Welder
G3 is NOTHING to do with Gas Safe. It is an entirely different qualification. They have no connection aside from them both being 'plumbing'.
The G3 regs start at the supply to the unvented cylinder and finish at two points: 1 - the safety discharge pipework and 2 - the hot water supply pipework.
The G3 regs start at the supply to the unvented cylinder and finish at two points: 1 - the safety discharge pipework and 2 - the hot water supply pipework.
Rob Foster
Esteemed
My old school friend is a surveyer, with lots of work in the private rented sector. Over the past few years (after training) I cover his holidays and eg This week I will visit over a dozen properties. I have to be open minded for each visit. My cynicism is fuelled by high rents charged for a small minority of frankly diabolical rentals, 50/50 landlord and tennants responsibility I see some amateur landlords dabbling in what should be skilled areas trying to grab as much lolly as possible. The comparison between the corporate lets and properties which have professional management and skilled maintenance and the pathetic diy ones is both stunning and immoral, dangerous and verging on theft.
Occassionally I read posts on here which fall into this category. I do not hold back as you know. Rob Foster aka centralheatking
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Before you let any tradesman do work for you, get a full understanding of their charges (callout, hourly charge including any minimum charge) and if any parts need replacing have these clearly detailed in advance of paying anything. If that pic is the part you've had replaced, you've been ripped off.
A reputable plumber will be happy to provide the above information to you so you can make an informed choice but unfortunately though, some prey on the customers predicament.
A reputable plumber will be happy to provide the above information to you so you can make an informed choice but unfortunately though, some prey on the customers predicament.
It's an added competency. A g3 qualification can be added to any competent person scheme.
Apologies for the delay in getting back to you. I started to make some progress with this matter at the end of last week, and I wanted to come back with a decent update. So, first of all, thank you for everyone who helped with this, and provided positive feedback. Thank you especially to Yorkshire Dave. Your long post (explaining the situation clearly) was brilliant, and very well written. If I was in Yorkshire, I'd be taking you for a pint to say thank you! So, quick update....
1. A new plumber visited on Thursday. He pointed out that the flexible hose, fitted in December, was 'not to standard'. This has now been corrected and replaced with copper piping. Please see 3 attached pics, which show the Original set up, the Valve & hose fitted in December (marked image D), and Corrective work with copper piping (image E). I was charged £109 (including vat) for this corrective work, which seemed perfectly reasonable.
2. The new plumber asked me about Gas Safety checks. I can confirm I get a landlords gas safety check every year, without fail, and have always passed. I keep all documentation. The company who carry out this check for me every year is called gas-elec (www.gas-elec.co.uk). I also pay the same company to check our smoke detectors and co alarms.
2. After repeated requests for a breakdown, the original plumbers emailed me last week, and confirmed that they hadn't given me any paperwork, and couldn't provide it.
3. My partner emailed the original plumbers, pointing out the following. That they have a) overcharged for the work, b) provided inaccurate information about what work was carried out, c) carried out the work incorrectly, and d) not provided an invoice. It stated that unless the company reimbursed us for £498, we would issue legal proceedings, and that we would also contact the relevant trade bodies and trade standards organisations regarding the inadequate work (possibly by unqualified persons). The email asked the plumbers to confirm their address for service.
4. The original plumbers called my partner, and admitted that we had been overcharged. They offered a full refund.
5. My partner, being the reasonable chap he is, suggested they refund us £400, on the basis that they did at least install a valve.
6. I have now been refunded £400!
So a good outcome. I realise in future I'm going to have to be more careful about the tradespeople I use, and how I deal with them, however I do have to trust people to a certain extent. I find most tradespeople are decent, honest and straightforward.
Apologies that this story has dragged on, and that I have bored some of you to death. I do appreciate your time and help. Information provided here was very useful.
One final thing. Not all landlords are bad! I do appreciate that there are plenty of dodgy landlords around, who give everyone a bad name, but there are lots just like me, who really care about their properties and want their tenants to be happy.
1. A new plumber visited on Thursday. He pointed out that the flexible hose, fitted in December, was 'not to standard'. This has now been corrected and replaced with copper piping. Please see 3 attached pics, which show the Original set up, the Valve & hose fitted in December (marked image D), and Corrective work with copper piping (image E). I was charged £109 (including vat) for this corrective work, which seemed perfectly reasonable.
2. The new plumber asked me about Gas Safety checks. I can confirm I get a landlords gas safety check every year, without fail, and have always passed. I keep all documentation. The company who carry out this check for me every year is called gas-elec (www.gas-elec.co.uk). I also pay the same company to check our smoke detectors and co alarms.
2. After repeated requests for a breakdown, the original plumbers emailed me last week, and confirmed that they hadn't given me any paperwork, and couldn't provide it.
3. My partner emailed the original plumbers, pointing out the following. That they have a) overcharged for the work, b) provided inaccurate information about what work was carried out, c) carried out the work incorrectly, and d) not provided an invoice. It stated that unless the company reimbursed us for £498, we would issue legal proceedings, and that we would also contact the relevant trade bodies and trade standards organisations regarding the inadequate work (possibly by unqualified persons). The email asked the plumbers to confirm their address for service.
4. The original plumbers called my partner, and admitted that we had been overcharged. They offered a full refund.
5. My partner, being the reasonable chap he is, suggested they refund us £400, on the basis that they did at least install a valve.
6. I have now been refunded £400!
So a good outcome. I realise in future I'm going to have to be more careful about the tradespeople I use, and how I deal with them, however I do have to trust people to a certain extent. I find most tradespeople are decent, honest and straightforward.
Apologies that this story has dragged on, and that I have bored some of you to death. I do appreciate your time and help. Information provided here was very useful.
One final thing. Not all landlords are bad! I do appreciate that there are plenty of dodgy landlords around, who give everyone a bad name, but there are lots just like me, who really care about their properties and want their tenants to be happy.
So, in theory, you need G3 or building control sign-off to install a vented cylinder too, even though the level 2 diploma shows you how to do it correctly and safely.
Am I the only one who asks himself what possible advantage there is in requiring a compentent plumber like myself with NVQ 2 to get building control in whenever he changes a cylinder and how many customers will be willing to pay the extra and wait for a BCO visit before I can get their hot water on for them?
You pass your g3, which is not just for unvented, then you can either attach your pass to a competent person scheme, for a fee, or not.
If you attach it to a competent person scheme you can install (providing details of install to building control prior to install), repair and service. The installation part being notifiable through your competent person scheme to building control.
If you don't you can still install by raising a building control notification and having them sign it off on completion. You can still repair and service as well.
Either way the customer will pay. I now need to renew my g3 and will be going via option 2. It will put an extra £255 on any install.
Not too sure if vented is notifiable, wasn't 5 years ago.
W
Welder
MF. Thank you for the update. Glad that UK Plumbers Forum members have been of some use - remind me to point this out to my wife... 🙄
The shocking reality is that most trades people are honest and decent. Life however does sometimes conspire against you and you get someone, let's say, opportunistic. TBH, I am amazed at the response of the company you used. I know this will sound distinctly odd, but in your shoes I'd actually be tempted to give them a call and use them, IF they can do it, for your annual unvented cylinder service. Why? Because at that response I'd say it was an anomaly and they would be keen to prove to you that they can do much better.
Keep in touch 😉 although not tooo much 🙄🙄🙄 😀
Yorkshire Dave - I most definitely won't be using the original plumbers again! I don't trust them in the slightest. The second plumber, however, is now in my contacts file.
The reason for the surprising response, and fast turnaround of events, is that, after collecting all the facts together (thanks to this forum, and the second plumber), a constructive lawyer friend offered to have a word. He's very charming and friendly, but not someone you would want to take on in a construction dispute! A quick look at his profile would have made them come to their senses. Miraculously, straight after he got involved, my money was returned and the missing invoice appeared.
The reason for the surprising response, and fast turnaround of events, is that, after collecting all the facts together (thanks to this forum, and the second plumber), a constructive lawyer friend offered to have a word. He's very charming and friendly, but not someone you would want to take on in a construction dispute! A quick look at his profile would have made them come to their senses. Miraculously, straight after he got involved, my money was returned and the missing invoice appeared.
If he's like the lawyer friend I have, you'll get an invoice for £600 for services rendered on Tuesday...
[QUOTE="Rob Foster, post: 1020992, member:
have you a current landlords and tennants gas safe certificate ? ...show us...are all your smoke alarms ok ? if you are a bona fide landlord then you will have a current inventory produced by an estate agent ..[/QUOTE]
I can`t believe just how rude you were here Rob, demanding the OP show`s us the current gas safe certificate and what has an inventory got to do with the thread plus you are nothing like the old chk you claim to be with your weekly claims of this, that and the other so what changed?
have you a current landlords and tennants gas safe certificate ? ...show us...are all your smoke alarms ok ? if you are a bona fide landlord then you will have a current inventory produced by an estate agent ..[/QUOTE]
I can`t believe just how rude you were here Rob, demanding the OP show`s us the current gas safe certificate and what has an inventory got to do with the thread plus you are nothing like the old chk you claim to be with your weekly claims of this, that and the other so what changed?
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