Flue for old atmospheric boiler

[Steve jones]

HI,

I had a new gas meter fitted a year ago and the installer said he wasn't happy with the flue. I have lost the report but would like to correct any faults.
The boiler is an old Thorn floor mounted atmospheric boiler which is located in the corner of a single story flat roofed garage which is attached to 2 floor house. Above the boiler you can see the bottom of the brick chimney which runs up the side of the house to roof level.
A flexible stainless flue liner runs from the top to the bottom of the chimney and connects directly to the boiler. So from the boiler to the ceiling in the garage where it enters the chimney there is an exposed unprotected section of flue liner.
Is this allowable in the gas regs? Should there be a solid section of flue from boiler to the ceiling and if so should it be double skinned.
Thanks very much for any advice
Steve

 

[Riley]

It’s a tricky one. Some pics might help however I think you are going to need to enlist a gas engineer with a little experience of old floor standing open flued appliances. Problem with meter fitters is that most of them are just that. They know how to purge and relight appliances and if they don’t they tend to whack a warning sticker on them until you get someone out with the full ticket

 

[Rob Foster]

HI,

I had a new gas meter fitted a year ago and the installer said he wasn't happy with the flue. I have lost the report but would like to correct any faults.
The boiler is an old Thorn floor mounted atmospheric boiler which is located in the corner of a single story flat roofed garage which is attached to 2 floor house. Above the boiler you can see the bottom of the brick chimney which runs up the side of the house to roof level.
A flexible stainless flue liner runs from the top to the bottom of the chimney and connects directly to the boiler. So from the boiler to the ceiling in the garage where it enters the chimney there is an exposed unprotected section of flue liner.
Is this allowable in the gas regs? Should there be a solid section of flue from boiler to the ceiling and if so should it be double skinned.
Thanks very much for any advice
Steve

Bluntly if the Gsr whom replaced ur meter did not cut you off but id you must not have been too worried at the time. However ...you and your family live in thus buiding and you must feel unsafe otherwise you would not have posted. We can give you advice based in the info you state. I think you should call out a GSR professional to advise you about your flue 1 st hand

and expect to pay ... afterall you do not want to wake up dead

Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[Riley]

I’d also prepare to not be able to flue this appliance anymore so if it’s wrong it may be new boiler time

 

[firemant]

The clue is in the name. Flue LINER. No part should be visible. However, without looking it up, I am 99.9% sure that, provided it passes all the safety tests, spillage and smoke, it is classed only as NCS.
To rectify, one would replace the liner with something like Selkirk IL, which is a twin wall flue.

If I was approached to rectify, I would be checking the requirements- it has been years since I fitted Selkirk.

TBH, the cost of rectification may be better spent on a new boiler

 

[DXCross]

NCS doesn’t exist anymore as far as I’m aware so it would infact be an at risk appliance

 

[Riley]

Non compliant, but agreed if it’s the wrong material used for flue then it could be AR

 

[Gasmk1]

AR you need to replace the liner on show with twin wall its at risk because the liner gets very hot and can cause burns if touched when on

 

[Steve jones]

Thanks for the replies. I've tried to attach a picture showing the flue and boiler but it would seem like the section of flexible flue liner from the boiler to ceiling should be replaced with twin wall?

 

[DXCross]

Should definitely be in solid flue.
Also the hole in the liner where they take analyser readings etc shouldn’t be there potential Products of combustion (POC) entering the room

 

[townfanjon]

NCS doesn’t exist anymore as far as I’m aware so it would infact be an at risk appliance

It does exist !!!

 

[Steve jones]

Does the flue have to be twin wall? I'm thinking single wall maybe cheaper and add some heat to the garage rather than in going up the chimney!
Thanks

 

[Aire]

Non compliant, but agreed if it’s the wrong material used for flue then it could be AR

Interesting, I would class a boiler with the wrong flue used as immediately dangerous.

 

[Gasmk1]

h

Does the flue have to be twin wall? I'm thinking single wall maybe cheaper and add some heat to the garage rather than in going up the chimney!
Thanks

as to be twin wall due to heat being dangerous to anyone touching flue when on

 

[Rob Foster]

where does the flue go at the top ....up thro roof or out the wall....looks a bit near the roof
structure to me centralheatking

 

[Steve jones]

Flue goes into bottom of chimney

 

[Riley]

Interesting, I would class a boiler with the wrong flue used as immediately dangerous.

Now I have seen pictures I agree with you

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yep not right

 

[firemant]

NCS doesn’t exist anymore as far as I’m aware so it would infact be an at risk appliance

Wrong. NCS DOES exist, you just do not note it on a Warning Label. You can (and I do/would) nite them on my Invoice/Report sheet.

Are you under the impression that all ex NCS situations are AR?

 

[firemant]

It is not AR due to the bad material - IF it is pulling etc. Just because it looks crap does not nean it is AR. Being a very hot surface does not make it AR.

However, the hole, presumably for an FGA, probably does elevate it to AR.

WTF would someone do that?

 

[Riley]

Ha ha this one again. Not Compliant is the old NCS and should be treated identically

 

[Riley]

It is not AR due to the bad material - IF it is pulling etc. Just because it looks crap does not nean it is AR. Being a very hot surface does not make it AR.

However, the hole, presumably for an FGA, probably does elevate it to AR.

WTF would someone do that?

Agreed once again showing that it’s been in for xx number of years and No ones said a word or it’s never been serviced

 

[Steve jones]

I had the boiler fitted 40+ years ago and it has only ever needed 2 thermocouples hence my reluctance to change it.
I remember a guy sticking a screwdriver in the side of the flue to make a hole for his analyser. His argument being that the draw from the chimney wouldn't let any gas escape.
So if I fill the hole in is it OK?
I was thinking of getting a 1 metre length section of twin wall to fit to the top of the boiler, then connect a 45 degree bend and then a connector to connect to the flexi flue liner ie so most of the flue in the garage is twin wall. Hopefully this will keep any further meter installers happy?
On another subject the 88 year old lady next door had a new boiler fitted by the gas board 5 years ago and also pays for an annual service/callout plan. Last year when it was serviced they frightened her by saying that it was getting a bit old, parts maybe hard to find and she could be left without heating. They said the same about the gas fire in the front room. They made her pay best part of £10,000 for another new boiler and a fire. Then in winter during a cold spell the boiler broke so she rang the gas board and they said they were too busy to take any more calls. I had a look and the condensate pipe was frozen.
This is the reason I try and keep my old reliable boiler going for as long as possible.

 

[Aire]

I remember a guy sticking a screwdriver in the side of the flue to make a hole for his analyser. His argument being that the draw from the chimney wouldn't let any gas escape.

😱😱😱😕😕😕😀😀😀

 

[Riley]

I had the boiler fitted 40+ years ago and it has only ever needed 2 thermocouples hence my reluctance to change it.
I remember a guy sticking a screwdriver in the side of the flue to make a hole for his analyser. His argument being that the draw from the chimney wouldn't let any gas escape.
So if I fill the hole in is it OK?
I was thinking of getting a 1 metre length section of twin wall to fit to the top of the boiler, then connect a 45 degree bend and then a connector to connect to the flexi flue liner ie so most of the flue in the garage is twin wall. Hopefully this will keep any further meter installers happy?
On another subject the 88 year old lady next door had a new boiler fitted by the gas board 5 years ago and also pays for an annual service/callout plan. Last year when it was serviced they frightened her by saying that it was getting a bit old, parts maybe hard to find and she could be left without heating. They said the same about the gas fire in the front room. They made her pay best part of £10,000 for another new boiler and a fire. Then in winter during a cold spell the boiler broke so she rang the gas board and they said they were too busy to take any more calls. I had a look and the condensate pipe was frozen.
This is the reason I try and keep my old reliable boiler going for as long as possible.

Please please stop right there. What you are proposing is illegal and dangerous. Do you not understand what an integral part a correctly installed flue is. It’s not in any way shape or form a DIY venture. The boiler shouldn’t even be on at the moment. Please seek the guidance of a properly trained gas engineer who can sort that mess.

 

[Riley]

I had the boiler fitted 40+ years ago and it has only ever needed 2 thermocouples hence my reluctance to change it.
I remember a guy sticking a screwdriver in the side of the flue to make a hole for his analyser. His argument being that the draw from the chimney wouldn't let any gas escape.
So if I fill the hole in is it OK?
I was thinking of getting a 1 metre length section of twin wall to fit to the top of the boiler, then connect a 45 degree bend and then a connector to connect to the flexi flue liner ie so most of the flue in the garage is twin wall. Hopefully this will keep any further meter installers happy?
On another subject the 88 year old lady next door had a new boiler fitted by the gas board 5 years ago and also pays for an annual service/callout plan. Last year when it was serviced they frightened her by saying that it was getting a bit old, parts maybe hard to find and she could be left without heating. They said the same about the gas fire in the front room. They made her pay best part of £10,000 for another new boiler and a fire. Then in winter during a cold spell the boiler broke so she rang the gas board and they said they were too busy to take any more calls. I had a look and the condensate pipe was frozen.
This is the reason I try and keep my old reliable boiler going for as long as possible.

Ps nobody “made” her pay for it. £10000 is a lot but come on she could’ve shopped around for quotes. Once again you make it sound like all installers are out to fleece you. No responsible engineer is going to tell you to change and upgrade for fun. The reluctance to upgrade to save a few quid could prove horrendously expensive with someone’s life. Don’t be a statistic please.

 

[Steve jones]

Please please stop right there. What you are proposing is illegal and dangerous. Do you not understand what an integral part a correctly installed flue is. It’s not in any way shape or form a DIY venture. The boiler shouldn’t even be on at the moment. Please seek the guidance of a properly trained gas engineer who can sort that mess.

Ok, I'll make some enquiries next week and I'm sorry if the story about my neighbour caused any offence to you guys. I appreciate all your comments

 

[Riley]

It’s not really caused offence but it’s always a few baduns that tar the lot of us.

 

[DXCross]

Wrong. NCS DOES exist, you just do not note it on a Warning Label. You can (and I do/would) nite them on my Invoice/Report sheet.

Are you under the impression that all ex NCS situations are AR?

During my recent re-assessments it was told to me that ncs wasn’t a ‘thing’ anymore however during a recent convo with another gsr engineer it appears it is. Just isn’t viable on a form as such so I’m wrong in this instance; apologises!

 

[Aire]

During my recent re-assessments it was told to me that ncs wasn’t a ‘thing’ anymore however during a recent convo with another gsr engineer it appears it is. Just isn’t viable on a form as such so I’m wrong in this instance; apologises!

From my assessment I was told ncs was done away with too, without double checking I'm sure we now have 2 categories of AR, one category was dealt with by just filling out a form to notify the customer which basically replaced ncs and the other where we would have to turn the appliance off, fill out a form and attach a label.

 

[Pickwickpick]

From my assessment I was told ncs was done away with too, without double checking I'm sure we now have 2 categories of AR, one category was dealt with by just filling out a form to notify the customer which basically replaced ncs and the other where we would have to turn the appliance off, fill out a form and attach a label.

We've been taught that they have got rid of NCS and things that would have fallen under that category are to be called none compliant. We should inform the customer of it but there are no stickers to leave/forms to fill out.

 

[Aire]

We've been taught that they have got rid of NCS and things that would have fallen under that category are to be called none compliant. We should inform the customer of it but there are no stickers to leave/forms to fill out.

Yeah your right, just checked and, you can still notify in writing if you wish but not as part of a warning notice, so verbally is fine.

 

[DXCross]

Hopefully not high jacking the thread too much but seems a bit backwards in my opinion. Gas safe really didn’t relay the information too well?
Either way it’s a learning curve and happy to be corrected. Thanks

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Ncs still exists just note it down but do nothing about it no labels nothing

 

[Aire]

Hopefully not high jacking the thread too much but seems a bit backwards in my opinion. Gas safe really didn’t relay the information too well?
Either way it’s a learning curve and happy to be corrected. Thanks

Don't think it's an issue with gas safe relaying the info, it's probably people (like me) forgetting.

I haven't had to use the warning system since qualifying so I guess it's easily done.

 

[Pickwickpick]

Don't think it's an issue with gas safe relaying the info, it's probably people (like me) forgetting.

I haven't had to use the warning system since qualifying so I guess it's easily done.

What is the process for Gas Safe relaying such information? Our tutors told us they put out technical bulletins on their website, do they also post or email them out, or do they have an equivalent of a trade magazine?

 

[Riley]

They have a mag but it’s all targeted wrong. The magazine is more about what not to do rather than improving standards

 

[Pickwickpick]

Thought that might be the case, its bonkers as that would be a really easy win for them, especially at a time when they're under the spotlight (iirc only last November Gas Safe were on Watchdog).

 

[Riley]

It’s wrong it’s another contract to the highest bidder who then have no obligation to actually clean up the industry. That’s the problem with all these government tendered contracts there’s never any incentive be it financial or punitive to complete on time or actually achieve things

 

[Pickwickpick]

It’s wrong it’s another contract to the highest bidder who then have no obligation to actually clean up the industry. That’s the problem with all these government tendered contracts there’s never any incentive be it financial or punitive to complete on time or actually achieve things

Yep that's true, but even when they have done contracts with so incentives/disincentives (e.g. probation services) its still not driven up standards to an acceptable level. Part of the problem is there's literally only a handful of companies that are large enough to take on these big contracts, so you end up with a quasi monopoly on the go. Capita didn't get the nickname Crapita for no reason, yet they keep being awarded government contracts... I also personally think that when it comes to regulatory bodies there should be no profit motive involved.

 

[Riley]

I think electric standards had the right idea where there are various bodies then they have to win your custom

 

[Pickwickpick]

That would definitely help, at least it would make it harder for them to treat tradesmen, who have no choice but to register, as cashcows. Not convinced it would help from an enforcement & raising standards perspective however.

 

[Riley]

Small steps I think mate it’ll start with everyone going with the cheapest option then as the punters start to see what’s on offer it will come down to the company that offer the best service

 

[Pickwickpick]

My concern with that set up is that if there are multiple bodies, each will have slightly different takes on enforcement, rules&regs, CPD... it will muddy the water further imo.

I think considering the public safety aspect, the government should be setting aside a budget that is adequate to ensure that a) there is significantly more enforcement/inspection b) there is good quality support for gas engineers, including training/education & decent communication (it wouldn't be that hard or expensive for them to email/post tech bulletins when they come out to everyone on the register) rather than just a reassessment every 5yrs. It would take some political will however, which as always is sadly going to take a major catastrophe to kick them into doing something.

 

[Riley]

Problem is mate that at the moment there is zero enforcement. Multiple organisations all following the same remit could at least prove they have teeth or not

 

[Pickwickpick]

Yep, totally agree about current state of affairs, just think the fastest, fairest & most effective way to changing it would be a decent budget provided by the government that is a) solely for enforcement b) has to be used c) effectiveness assessed (would be good to have input from gas safe members on this) with loss of contract if not adequate.

But it would take a lot of political will, with that missing, then yes your option is probably the next best.

Any idea how sparks feel about their multi body set up?

 

[Aire]

Interesting, I would class a boiler with the wrong flue used as immediately dangerous.

What's with the dislike @chris watkins 🙁

 

[chris watkins]

Sorry bit harsh but if it is working correctly Craig, as we have to assume it has been for all this time it can't be ID.
It would have to be spilling for that.

And for those who think it should be condemned because of how hot the liner is likely to get clearly have not touched a nice bit of single wall stainless or enamelled especially on a solid fuel appliance !!

 

[firemant]

What's with the dislike @chris watkins 🙁

Probably because you clearly have not read the procedure.
Personally, if you were to overstep your remit, and wrongly condemn my boiler, depriving my family of heat and hot water, I would be looking at suing you.

EDIT: Composed and posted this as Chris was doing so. Too many guys have no real understanding of the basics.

 

[Jerry]

Different point of view:

What's the efficiency on the boiler? 50%

I guess your gas bill is about £800/year? That's £400 up the chimney a year.

A new system boiler in the same spot with a powerflush, controls etc and a 12 year guarantee would cost ???

Do the math. How long until it pays for itself?

 

[firemant]

Different point of view:

What's the efficiency on the boiler? 50%

I guess your gas bill is about £800/year? That's £400 up the chimney a year.

A new system boiler in the same spot with a powerflush, controls etc and a 12 year guarantee would cost ???

Do the math. How long until it pays for itself?

It is not that different. My first post made a similar comment.

 

[Jerry]

It is not that different. My first post made a similar comment.

Sorry missed it!

 

[Jerry]

Yep, totally agree about current state of affairs, just think the fastest, fairest & most effective way to changing it would be a decent budget provided by the government that is a) solely for enforcement b) has to be used c) effectiveness assessed (would be good to have input from gas safe members on this) with loss of contract if not adequate.

But it would take a lot of political will, with that missing, then yes your option is probably the next best.

Any idea how sparks feel about their multi body set up?

I am GS and a NAPIT registered sparky.

My electrical works are inspected annual onsite and I have to show certs, calibrations etc and answer questions to an assessor. This is good in my opinion.

There is a lot of snobbery amongst the different elec bodies. NICEIC think they are the best and many times they win jobs purely by name.

The electrical forums can be brutal.

Should GS be split into more bodies? Not sure. People still think we are CORGI....
..

 

[Pickwickpick]

I am GS and a NAPIT registered sparky.

My electrical works are inspected annual onsite and I have to show certs, calibrations etc and answer questions to an assessor. This is good in my opinion.

There is a lot of snobbery amongst the different elec bodies. NICEIC think they are the best and many times they win jobs purely by name.

The electrical forums can be brutal.

Should GS be split into more bodies? Not sure. People still think we are CORGI..
..

That sounds like a much better way of doing things, with a bit of political will and some extra funding should be possible to make GS do the same.

Was there a similar setup before it was multi body (or has it always been multi body, don't know much about the world of Sparkys)? Is there the same inspection regime irrespective of which trade body you are with? Also what are your fees like compared to Gas Safe?

Good point re corgi lol

 

[Jerry]

That sounds like a much better way of doing things, with a bit of political will and some extra funding should be possible to make GS do the same.

Was there a similar setup before it was multi body (or has it always been multi body, don't know much about the world of Sparkys)? Is there the same inspection regime irrespective of which trade body you are with? Also what are your fees like compared to Gas Safe?

Good point re corgi lol

I think the inspection regime is fairly similar across the sparks schemes. I honestly don't know the difference in prices because I haven't looked into it. Sparkles generally pay for way for certs than we do (thanks to the boiler manufacturers)

I am not sure if GS should be split. However, we are GS members should be able to hold GS toes to the fire and conversely the other gas bodies. In theory. I think there is some power in the numbers. Thino of the American unions....

I regards to GS and sparky fees....honestly I don't k ow off the top of my head. You pay your fees if you want to play this game....

 

[Aire]

Sorry bit harsh but if it is working correctly Craig, as we have to assume it has been for all this time it can't be ID.
It would have to be spilling for that.

And for those who think it should be condemned because of how hot the liner is likely to get clearly have not touched a nice bit of single wall stainless or enamelled especially on a solid fuel appliance !!

Yeah I've looked into this for my own knowledge and the example of unsafe situations in tb001 classes incorrect use of flue liner (e.g exposed) is only ncs, given how that is not official any more, apart from telling the customer it's wrong, nothing else should be done, is that right?

 

[Aire]

Probably because you clearly have not read the procedure.
Personally, if you were to overstep your remit, and wrongly condemn my boiler, depriving my family of heat and hot water, I would be looking at suing you.

EDIT: Composed and posted this as Chris was doing so. Too many guys have no real understanding of the basics.

Someone sounds grumpy 😵

 

[Riley]

NCS = non compliant the classification level still exists you just verbally advise

 

[chris watkins]

Just like the GSR engineer reported to OP Steve, I would expect that the report he can no longer find went something like - "That flue on your boiler is not correct sir, a flue liner has been used in place of the correct twin wall flue pipe which should have been used between the boiler & the chimney above". "Now I have had a quick look & I can see no signs of spillage from the boiler / flue so it looks like it is functioning however that is not to say it should not be corrected, I know I am just here to install your gas meter but you will understand that I have a duty of care under the Gas Safety Regulation to point out issue I come across"

If you would like know why the liner is an issue it is because it is light weight & easily damaged, as a product it was only intended to be used within a sealed chimney space where the trapped air would act as insulation to keep the flue gas temperatures high enough for the system to work carrying the products of combustion away safely. As it stands the long length of liner will allow the hot gases to cool quickly & the flue may not function as quickly or effectively as it should / could. For this reason I am recommending that you get it corrected as soon as you can.
I will be including this in my report, job sheet or invoice in that way you have a record & I have discharge my duty of care.

 

[Jerry]

Its so old no one can agree on how to flue it, let alone categorise it!

 

[firemant]

Its so old no one can agree on how to flue it, let alone categorise it!

Speak for yourself. I know exactly how ot should be done. I also understand the "procedure", and it does not involve lying to justify condemning a boiler, a tactic often claimed to be employed.

I will say, however, that I cannot find my post immediately after the hole was brought to attention. I may have said it may cause this to be elevated from NCS to AR. I meant ID. I think that if a call was placed to Gas Safe that they would say that you cannot effectively "repair" it, although a few bands of silver tape probably would. All my NCS comments are based on the liner being sound, and the appliance passing the tests.

I have come across many flue liners in lofts, used to connect the transition block to a roof terminal. Obviously wrong, but I checked with GS (or maybe Corgi), and the advice was as expected. NCS assuming etc...

A lot of those I visited were to fit a fire, but all of those were upgraded, or the job declined.

 

[Riley]

I’ve moved this to the gs area as the op has an answer. Please try and keep it civil chaps we’re all on the same side