Reports of CO poisoning

[diamondgas]

Hi peeps 🙂

Thought I'd share this with you as it happened to me yesterday! Maybe others can share their experience of attending reported CO poisoning.

Landlord rang me yesterday regarding an incident involving the fire-brigade. He said they've turned the gas off at a property I look after!! Sphincter starts putting!! However I recollect the property and knew that it has a combi and hob! Combi is negative pressure so not a likely suspect!

Transco had been and done there thing by the time I got there! So the tenants (asylum seekers) has experienced the fire-brigade with huge fans evacuating the premise and transco slapping a big notice saying DO NOT USE!!!

Soundness test - pass, Visual of the appliances, pass flue's a bit close to a window but the window isn't openable! FGA results of the boiler 115ppm/0.0010 on High 56ppm/0.0008 Low. Nothing outside the unit or the flue through the wall.

Now here's where my brain thinks "how you suppose to test a hob?" Anyways set all 4 away and visually okay so hovered the fga above the burners looking for dodgy amounts of CO. Got 5ppm max!

I then spent an age re-assuring the tenants that everything was okay. I then had to go through the same explanation with the landlord. He also insisted on something in writing !!! I haven't got a clue what caused the tenants 'headaches' but it certainly weren't fumes!!

My pondering is though, did i do enough? Could I have checked anything differently? It's not every day you attend reported CO poisoning involving the fire-brigade 🙂 Sheeeeeeeeeeesh!!!

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

was there a alarm activation or a assumption it was co on the tenants part?

 

[diamondgas]

was there a alarm activation or a assumption it was co on the tenants part?

No alarm but the fire-brigade did leave them one afterwards! I've no idea how it came about and got no info regards what the fire-brigade found or how they ended up there in the first place? I don't even know if they have equipment for detecting CO!

My assumption is that it's a procedure they adopt if they suspect, or have been made aware off the potential off CO in a property?

 

[stani]

did anybody other than you take CO readings, Fire Brigade would just have gone belt and braces and ventilated the property with a positive pressure fan, but they would not neccessarily have the eqwuipment to test for CO. if you have tested to the best of your ability, the only other option is to advise the landlord to go "all" electric. by the sound of it you did everything right,

 

[gaspastemania]

How long did you have the hob on for??
ask because CO obviously levels build up over time which your prob aware of.
The joy of gas engineering huh

 

[dontknowitall]

Presumably CO and not Radon or something else?

Poor you - talking about heart in mouth ...

 

[diamondgas]

How long did you have the hob on for??
ask because CO obviously levels build up over time which your prob aware of.
The joy of gas engineering huh

I didn't run it for a long period at most 5mins to be honest. The kitchen was small but not tiny and there's a door into the livingroom also. It would have had to be on as a souce of heat to build up anything potentialy dangerous I'd have thought ...lol

 

[mikegas]

supposed to do an ambient air test following reports of co aren't you?

 

[diamondgas]

Presumably CO and not Radon or something else?

Poor you - talking about heart in mouth ...

Upstairs flat! 🙂 I was even sniffin around the pump and pcb to see if that had been letting off anything to contribute to the 'smell'! Oh! That's what he said, a funny smell from the boiler and i said "CO doesn't have a smell!"

 

[gaspastemania]

If in doubt just drill a four inch core through the wall lol

 

[diamondgas]

supposed to do an ambient air test following reports of co aren't you?

Ears are open mikegas .... If that means hovering my fga above the hob then I did 🙂 I ain't getting into technobabble though 🙂

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

did you say you carried out a co room safety? sadly you now need to go though that perlaver with both appliances,there is a BS on this or in one of corgis books they explain it more clearly if your stuck i could photocopy it and send it to you but you would get it quicker via a google search you also need to fill out a report of fumes report under GSIUR,if all this proves ok advise them to go to the docs,there could be other sources of co or a totally unrelated explanation

 

[CMairiD]

If you need the BS docs, diamond, PM me your email address. Additionally, if you smile sweetly at the grumpy gas lady, the grumpy gas lady will scan you copies of her CORGI report of fumes forms which is a handy 'follow-through' guide for on-site testing.

I know how you feel tho'. The only one on a patch one day with a FGA and get roped into investigating a second CO alarm activation in less than a year on boiler in a child's bedroom. *gulp*

 

[diamondgas]

did you say you carried out a co room safety? sadly you now need to go though that perlaver with both appliances,there is a BS on this or in one of corgis books they explain it more clearly if your stuck i could photocopy it and send it to you but you would get it quicker via a google search you also need to fill out a report of fumes report under GSIUR,if all this proves ok advise them to go to the docs,there could be other sources of co or a totally unrelated explanation

Ever done one? reason i ask is coz I spent nearly a full day many moons ago at a CO poisoning when I worked for BG and it was apparent from the outset that the oven grill was spewing CO. Floppy yellow and off the scale!!!! We then spent ages 'proving' that after whatever time it was the level of CO was enough to cause cetain symptoms! Crazy really coz the blokes toast would have been a frizzle!!! lol

 

[mikegas]

Ears are open mikegas .... If that means hovering my fga above the hob then I did 🙂 I ain't getting into technobabble though 🙂

lol. Its bs7967 parts 1-3 mate ive not got access myself

 

[mikegas]

Carrying out a room test for carbon monoxide with a Combustion Analyser.

General
1. Position an open ended sampling probe approximately 2 m above floor level in the centre of the room and at least 1 m away from any suspect appliance installation.
2. Close all external doors, windows and customer adjustable ventilation.
3. Record the level of CO over a 15 min period. If the indoor level of CO starts to rise during this period, check for CO migration from other sources.
4. If there is no rise then proceed to test the appliance.
Room sealed and open flued appliances
Operate the appliance at full rate until the CO reading stabilizes or begins to fall, whichever occurs first.
Cookers
Ensure that all permanent ventilation to the space in which the appliance is situated is unobstructed.
Place a saucepan on each of the pan-supports above the two largest hotplate burners and put approximately a litre of water in each and cover with a lid. Use a saucepan with a flat base and a base diameter of between 160 mm and 220 mm.
Place the grill pan in its highest position under the grill.
Open/operate the customer adjustable ventilation in accordance with the cooker manufacturer’s instructions, e.g. window or extractor fan.
Light the grill, oven and the two hotplate burners at their maximum setting. Turn the oven down to gas mark 5 (or mid-range if not calibrated in gas mark numbers).
Record the CO levels at 1 min intervals.
Turn the hotplate burners down to simmer when the water boils. Turn the grill off after 30 min.
If during the test the CO reading:
begins to fall without exceeding 30 ppm, stop the test; the installation and cooker are satisfactory;
does not exceed 30 ppm for longer than 20 min and begins to fall and does not exceed 90 ppm at any time, stop the test; the installation and cooker are satisfactory;
Exceeds 90 ppm at any time, stop the test, ventilate the room, identify the cause, rectify and repeat the test.
Flueless water heaters
Ensure that all permanent ventilation to the space in which the appliance is situated is unobstructed.
Close all customer adjustable ventilation to the space in which the appliance is situated.
Light the appliance and operate it at maximum gas rate for 5 min recording the CO levels at 1 min intervals.
Flueless space heaters
Ensure that all permanent ventilation to the space in which the appliance is situated is unobstructed.
Close all customer adjustable ventilation to the space in which the appliance is situated.
Light the appliance and operate it at maximum gas rate for 30 min recording the CO levels at 1 min intervals.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

Ever done one? reason i ask is coz I spent nearly a full day many moons ago at a CO poisoning when I worked for BG and it was apparent from the outset that the oven grill was spewing CO. Floppy yellow and off the scale!!!! We then spent ages 'proving' that after whatever time it was the level of CO was enough to cause cetain symptoms! Crazy really coz the blokes toast would have been a frizzle!!! lol

no,the last one i done was last year on a old O/F mexico done the usual spillibe,flueflow,pressures,fga,then a co room safety nothing after 30 minutes ,this was after a alarm activation,after all this custard informs me they removed the co alarm to decorate and dropped it,barstewerds

 

[mikegas]

^ from gb-gas

 

[tamz]

You would have thought someone would have suggested they get themselves to hospital or the docs to get co blood levels checked. Maybe they don't want to go there in case it is a one way trip to the boat back home :lol:

 

[diamondgas]

Okay so we've established that I didn't carry out the correct procedure and should have put some pans of water on and set the whole lot away for 1/2 an hour. I accept that 🙂 This is after carrying out the obligitory gas soundness test, boile flue analysis etc ..

Oh! by-the-way the kitchen with both appliances in it has an adjoining door to the living room that is perminantly open (real world) So what then? Also happens to be where they spend most of their time. Do I assume that the occupants were standing in the kitchen with the doors closed making their own entertainment watching the veg boil for 1/2hr?

Re-iterate - negative pressure combi, flue intact and a 4 burner hob visually ok and not one burner flaying in the wind 🙂

 

[mcniven]

if its a flat, is downstairs an of back boiler? maybe the passes chimney area cracked leaking, high unlikely eh... just for thot

 

[AWheating]

what did transco do? i dont think you have been given the full picture? why would the fire services deal with co issues? if there had been a problem i think transco would have investigated further and possibly even gained access to adjoining propertys to ensure all is well.

 

[CMairiD]

Migration? What's next door? Outdoor sources? All things to consider when doing investigations.

 

[diamondgas]

if its a flat, is downstairs an of back boiler? maybe the passes chimney area cracked leaking, high unlikely eh... just for thot

Downstairs is empty but shows ya thinkin ... also has a combi and hob and is owned by the same Landlord 🙂

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

well its not co then steve unless its coming from some other source ,you could ring immigration LOL, dodgy looking fellas here ,i think one has a hook for a arm,no hang on its a coat hanger yes its to nick the radio out of the van false alarm they are British,you have done your tests(should have cooked a dinner (its in the regs dont you know LOL)there headaches are a, made up,b through going on the razzz,c,some ever issue

 

[diamondgas]

what did transco do? i dont think you have been given the full picture? why would the fire services deal with co issues? if there had been a problem i think transco would have investigated further and possibly even gained access to adjoining propertys to ensure all is well.

I totaly agree .. the people I spoke to were the tenants who explained having headaches when the heating was on! "Where you cooking at the time?" I asked ... Strange look from them then "No!" I still don't undertand why the fire brigade got involved .. however they did say that it'd all been off for 5 days when i arrived! Which make's it over the New Year weekend yeh? maybe they rang 999?

 

[AWheating]

even if they phoned 999 and they had turned up i dont think they would deal with it and just phone transco. If transco ID it then what paperwork was issued to the landlord?

 

[diamondgas]

well its not co then steve unless its coming from some other source ,you could ring immigration LOL, dodgy looking fellas here ,i think one has a hook for a arm,no hang on its a coat hanger yes its to nick the radio out of the van false alarm they are British,you have done your tests(should have cooked a dinner (its in the regs dont you know LOL)there headaches are a, made up,b through going on the razzz,c,some ever issue

:lol: It's a hard call to make though mark! To tell someone that what they've experienced wasn't CO! Especially after the flippin fire-brigade and Trasco (whoever) have been before you! LOL If I was wrong then at least the CO detector left by the FB will kick off!!

 

[diamondgas]

Normal transco paperwork read "soundness test okay, suspect fumes!" ... They didn't let me know they'd put a disc in the meter either Grrrrrrrr!! Found it in the outlet and had to carry out a second gas test!!

 

[CMairiD]

The Grid don't carry FGA's and I don't believe any of the gas emergency services south of the border (Scotland) even carry personal CO alarms. I've heard through the grape vine that some fire services have devices to detect CO, but never really heard exactly what their devices are.

 

[mikegas]

:lol: It's a hard call to make though mark! To tell someone that what they've experienced wasn't CO! Especially after the flippin fire-brigade and Trasco (whoever) have been before you! LOL If I was wrong then at least the CO detector left by the FB will kick off!!

agreed, not a situation i would like to be in

 

[AWheating]

re fire service :i would imagine that that would possibly have personal alarms like the gas safe inspectors do. If the transco guys cant test for co then how do they know if they are leaving a dangerous situation? or even entering a dangerous situation?

 

[tamz]

If the transco guys cant test for co then how do they know if they are leaving a dangerous situation? or even entering a dangerous situation?

They don't and they are not there to test for it. That is why they just turn off and........! If there was an incident then other people get involved who would check everything.

 

[diamondgas]

re fire service :i would imagine that that would possibly have personal alarms like the gas safe inspectors do. If the transco guys cant test for co then how do they know if they are leaving a dangerous situation? or even entering a dangerous situation?

My thoughts exactly! Their job is to make safe though and by capping off this families gas suply over the New Year they did exacly that!! Personally i think the service for testing for CO should be added to their remit!

However the Landlord could have let me know sooner but alas I got wind Wednesday!

 

[CMairiD]

Stephanie Trotter's been campaigning for the ESP to carry FGAs (or similar) and personal alarms for a long time. And your point about 'how do they know they aren't leaving a dangerous situation' is very valid. Without equipment, they only have visual inspection to rely on and that isn't going to do jack if you've got migration from elsewhere.

Have a look at: http://www.policyconnect.org.uk/app...enting Carbon Monoxide Poisoning (colour).pdf

Page 8 where their recommendations are for FGAs (or similar) and personal alarms (recommendation 8). Additionally look at pages 27-28. It was Scotia Gas that have kitted out their first call operatives with personal alarms.

 

[AWheating]

if they got called to a report of fumes and did not have a way to test it was safe to enter the building then i would think they need to ridor themselves.

there has been cases of engineers deaths when investigating reports of fumes.

also what if they turned up, turned off and it turn out to be next doors fumes and later the tennant died?? seems a risk not to test and investigate further.

 

[CMairiD]

also what if they turned up, turned off and it turn out to be next doors fumes and later the tennant died?? seems a risk not to test and investigate further.

As sad as it may sound, I think it's is going to take someone(s) dying just as you describe before the ESPs are forced into action.

 

[diamondgas]

Wold this job i attended been reported to the HSE? Am I suppose to RIDOR? Honestly I found no evidence of CO ... never gave it second thought as to whether I should cover the derrière 🙂

*sigh*

 

[tamz]

Wouldn't have thought so as no one before you tested or found anything, no one was hospitalised and you never found anything.

 

[CMairiD]

Strike CO from your mind and think about the normal reasons you'd issue a RIDDOR. If none of those reasons were evident, then no need to bother.

 

[diamondgas]

Strike CO from your mind and think about the normal reasons you'd issue a RIDDOR. If none of those reasons were evident, then no need to bother.

Ultimately i could not prove anything reportable regards RIDDOR! Other services may have deemed it neccessary but i could not! (YOUR HONOUR) 🙂

 

[tamz]

Don't worry about it.

 

[diamondgas]

Don't worry about it.

I don't Tamz ... I believe i have enough experince to know!

Hope I have 🙂

However there's a sad line seems to be appearing between knowing and proving, or is it recording?? Sad! Real sad! If i was to blame for the death of someone I'd be suicidal!!

 

[tamz]

I know you have but don't dwell on it.
However, if you are putting anything down in writing make sure everything is spot on including the kitchen ventilation regardless of the normally open adjoining door.

 

[diamondgas]

I bleedn' woke up this morning still thinking about this. Some jobs do that 🙂

Thanks for the info you sent me CMariD, much appreciated I think! lol ... reading B Standard I didn't do too bad considdering it's not an every day venture into reported CO! And not something greatly covered in reassesment I might add! Maybe it should be something practiced and tested on for us to get our FGA qualification? On a practical note, I didn't know there was Gas Safe paperwork out there to cover these incidents. I may have to get me some for the future.

Regards fumes migrating from other properties, in hindsight if it was the case then the tenants would be dead by now as i got there 5 days later! Imagine if there had been though!

Thinking about an ambient air with the hob running; if the tenants had answered yes when i asked them if they were using the hob at the time I may have been more thorough in testing. As it was they had not been cooking on the hob and they reported the smell coming from the boiler! Lesson learned though. When i go back to do the CP12 I may pop the hob on for 1/2hr 🙂

 

[Pssst]

ESPs do not carry atmospheric monitoring equipment save for a combustible gas detector. Thier license does not require them to do so. Some ESPs have issued PAMs to their engineers but most havent. Its all political.

The effects of CO are generally ***ulative and you can bet that if you turn up at a job,the occupants will still be in the premises. If they arent ill or dead then its fairly safe to assume that you can enter !

ESPs will simply make safe unless for example,there is a situation where there is am alarm which is only flagging detector/battery fail beeps and there are no signs/symptoms. In any other circs they may issue either a CFS/AR/DGI notice to prompt further investigation by someone who has done the necessary BS training and has equipment for atmospheric testing.

Truth is that if you attend a real CO incident,there is usually some evidence.

I have known ridiculous situations in which the punter is still in the house whilst the FB are wearing BA and wandering round..!

ROTFL..the whole situation needs looking at for sure...

Ms Trotter,whilst being well meaning..is not in possession of all the facts.

 

[diamondgas]

Wise words Pssst 🙂 I've been fortunate in that I too have attended many reports of fumes and also 2 near fatal incidents where occupants have been hospitalised. That was when we use to do it all and I also working for the bigger corporations. This being my first in the capacity of being self employed caught me questioning the whole process & my self I guess. All of a sudden I felt responsible in a totally different capacity, if that makes any sense! Also, its all well and good taking 3-4hrs setting up and checking ambient air readings if there's a real threat or incident where people have been effected. But if you've got a negative pressure combi boiler & a perfectly clean burning hob and folk saying they smelt something funny and both had headaches! ..................*shrug*
And who pays for all the wasted time proving what you knew after 1/2hr of tests? Don't get me wrong I'm not that bothered about making it or not but it's a big chunk out of a day, time wise, that can have a knock on effect. I'd like to think my questioning the occupants and their response meant no need to be so thorough as maybe regulations request?
My main reason for starting the thread was to find out others thoughts on what they'd have done & also some reassurances that I'd carried out a decent response! With the FB and ESP's attending it took some re-assuring the tenants that all was okay 🙂
We're all individuals end of the day and maybe some would have insisted on being more thorough. Maybe some would have dismissed it straight away and not carried out as much testing as I had?

Thinking about it now though I think any reported incident of gas, CO being one of them, should be attended and checked out by the Emergency Service Provider's. As mentioned, what if it was migrating CO from another property? It took the landlord 5 days to contact me!!!