Not Happy with the eye's in the sky !!

[mountainman]

i dunno Croppie,
its always gonna be a grey area between sensible advice and poor advice.
i'm pleased that you are a mod cos you can walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

 

[chris watkins]

be careful what you post gas safe sponsor us,finding you is much easier than you think you have a ip address a registered phone line) if someone died as a direct result of advice given on this forum what would you tell the prosecutor if your name was in the frame?this is why we close threads that contain such posts if you want to talk gas join the appropriate forum

Well if asked, of course, I would tell them that when I joined this forum there was no warning or indication that if wrong or in correct information given by me, could come back & bite me on the bum & as such I would be issuing a counter claim against this forum for not protecting my interest while I was giving away free information.
As for GSR that is one of my problems when you get vested interests involved ! as it is run by a private company with there own interest in maintaining a close shop I will alway be suspicious when they are telling me what I can & can't do.

 

[Ray Stafford]

We have a similar situation in health and safety issues. All of us who employ people can be picking up the soap with croppie for something that we had nothing to do with, if a court decides we didn't do enough to anticipate and prevent it.

The only way to be 100% safe is to shut your business down. Since that is impractical, you set some basic rules, write them down, and set up a system or two to monitor. Then you stop worrying and get on with it.

 

[AWheating]

I have seen many boiler cases left ill fitted by sparkys, screws missing etc.... so i totally understand the stance of only gsr engineers should remove a case. You also have to question any gas safe engineer who leaves the gas onto an unwired (uncommissioned) boiler so the sparks can fire it up when hes done 🙁 . It is afterall the sparks thats breaking the gas regs when he/she removes the case, but then most sparks dont know there own regs.

I like worcester idea of sticking a flying lead on the boiler and there new compact has been designed so you can wire it with the case on. Maybe the way forward for all.

 

[chris watkins]

I have seen many boiler cases left ill fitted by sparkys, screws missing etc.... so i totally understand the stance of only gsr engineers should remove a case. You also have to question any gas safe engineer who leaves the gas onto an unwired (uncommissioned) boiler so the sparks can fire it up when hes done 🙁 . It is afterall the sparks thats breaking the gas regs when he/she removes the case, but then most sparks dont know there own regs.

I like worcester idea of sticking a flying lead on the boiler and there new compact has been designed so you can wire it with the case on. Maybe the way forward for all.

Think you will find it is the person who connected the gas to the appliance that broke the Law not the block that turned it on what was that about not knowing the reg's ? Very sorry AW opened yourself for that one LOL

 

[AWheating]

i dont get you, they would be both breaking the law?

 

[jtsplumbing]

This is somewhat a bit of a gray area, most new boilers the outer case is just that ! just somthing to look nice, with the combustion chamber sealed inside, according to what GS told me just B4 Xmas a sparks can remove the outer case to gain access to the wireing terminal as long as no seals are disturbed he can also replace the built in time controls, and that is all he is allowed to do ! can-not replace any fuses on the PCB as this is to do with the opperation of the boiler, Proberly ring next week and get told somthing differant.

 

[chris watkins]

i dont get you, they would be both breaking the law?

As soon as the gas connection is made the appliance must be commissioned, you can not leave any gas appliance connected to a gas supply that can not work correctly. Therefore the GSR engineer who connected the gas broke the Law. That is why it is in the regs to prevent the spark from being able to turn on an un-commissioned appliance.

 

[dancinplumba]

job am on now, boiler has flying lead, there is no fused spur, house getting rewire. Will put plug on and plug into extension lead, commission boiler remove plug and then sparks comes in and connects to new fused spur he has installed. if he needs to wire in timer and stats etc he carnt remove cover.

 

[AWheating]

that what i said, did you not see the 🙁 sad face? in my post.

i was merly refering to the sparks and the fact they must comply to the gas regs like everyone else, so if he/she removed the case and then turn on they have broken the regs, to a lesser degree i guess but still dont hold up in court.

Trust me you dont need to tell me the regs about uncommission appliances ive seen enough dangerous situations left by idiots while onsite, thats why i have tons of those uncommission appliance lables on me van along with about 50 meter blanks, you tend to build them up when working on voids over the years.

 

[Rickster123]

I do miss reading the threads of DIY gas repairs. But totally understand the reasons for the closed threads. I think a bigger message before you can access the forum would help. I rarely read the blurb at the top of the screen.

 

[AWheating]

it always makes me laugh when one trade says another trades regulations have nothing to do with them. If you make a hole through a wall you must know the regs on fire ratings wether your a builder,plumber or painter.

 

[mountainman]

it always makes me laugh when one trade says another trades regulations have nothing to do with them. If you make a hole through a wall you must know the regs on fire ratings wether your a builder,plumber or painter.

Mushroom fertiliser in my opinion. 😉

 

[REDSAW]

can anyone show me evidence for someone doing time for working on household electrics?
is it enforceable or only if some one gets hurt?
no one will goto prison for working on electrics!

if you kill some one then it will be treated no different to someone driving without a licence.

if you work on gas ilegaly then you will.

to wire a boiler you are deemed to be working on a gas appliance, no grey area about it.
to touch the workings of the boiler upwards of from where the pipes enter it..you are working on a gas appliance.

to run a wire, then yeh! sue me. not!!

just a blunt view of it.imo

 

[hammers4spanner]

I dont see any grey area in it at all anything boiler related is gas works imo end of .

I dont see what the arguement is about on here to be honest from what i gather chris is saying that he wants to give someone advice on working on gas appliances which either A the person is working illegally or B the person is deemed not competant to work on a gas appliance .

ok we all dont know everything but if i was a mechanic i wouldnt encourage someone who is unsure about how to repair their brakes same principle with gas imho.

On a personal note if i am unsure about a repair then i wont do it i will pass it to a friend get someone more experieced in repairs to tackle the job , surely thats the same in recommending a gsr in for the public meaning a competant experienced person .

 

[chris watkins]

I dont see any grey area in it at all anything boiler related is gas works imo end of .

I dont see what the arguement is about on here to be honest from what i gather chris is saying that he wants to give someone advice on working on gas appliances which either A the person is working illegally or B the person is deemed not competant to work on a gas appliance .

ok we all dont know everything but if i was a mechanic i wouldnt encourage someone who is unsure about how to repair their brakes same principle with gas imho.

On a personal note if i am unsure about a repair then i wont do it i will pass it to a friend get someone more experieced in repairs to tackle the job , surely thats the same in recommending a gsr in for the public meaning a competant experienced person .

Please don't put words into my mouth ! The OP was asking why a thread was being pulled & had nothing to do with the right's & wrong's of the advice being given most of which did not even involve me.
I often get shot down in flames on here when I suggest that just maybe there should be restrictions on who should be aloud to practice plumbing & yet here we are with a lot of the same people wanting a complete close shop around this area. Like it or not there are some grey areas (central heating controls problems after commissioning) I am just asking if we are over stepping the mark & should we just blindly take the work of GS who have a vested interest in this close shop they are not & do not make the Law & as ever it is open to question.

 

[Guest123]

This thread has produced several good suggestions on how to improve things for the forum in general. Can I ask that if anyone has a suggestion that they'd like to make to help improve the forum, that they contact the moderators direct. No reasonable suggestion will ever be ignored and we'll discuss it and see what we can do. We'll also email you about the progress of your suggestion.

We're all "singing from the same hymn sheet" and want the forum to continually improve for the benefit of it's members.

 

[dancinplumba]

This is somewhat a bit of a gray area, most new boilers the outer case is just that ! just somthing to look nice, with the combustion chamber sealed inside, according to what GS told me just B4 Xmas a sparks can remove the outer case to gain access to the wireing terminal as long as no seals are disturbed he can also replace the built in time controls, and that is all he is allowed to do ! can-not replace any fuses on the PCB as this is to do with the opperation of the boiler, Proberly ring next week and get told somthing differant.

the outer case on most modern boilers is part of the air supply to combustion chamber. If its not put back correctly then combustion is directly affected

 

[chris watkins]

the outer case on most modern boilers is part of the air supply to combustion chamber. If its not put back correctly then combustion is directly affected

Not true, combustion is not affected they are built & designed to be intrinsically safe & as you know can be run with the casing off if required.

 

[dancinplumba]

Not true, combustion is not affected they are built & designed to be intrinsically safe & as you know can be run with the casing off if required.

the co co2 and o2 is affected

 

[chris watkins]

Is it un-safe to run them without the casing in place ??

 

[Rickster123]

Is it un-safe to run them without the casing in place ??

Only if you're standing in a bucket of water with your tongue on the pcb!

 

[AWheating]

Is it un-safe to run them without the casing in place ??

yes, if the boiler has a fault.

 

[R1CKY]

Is it un-safe to run them without the casing in place ??

It could become unsafe and it wouldn't be a room sealed boiler anymore.

Most modern condensing boilers have a burner which is under positive pressure. Now if a burner seal was to fail, products of combustion would be entering the room if the case was removed. With the case in place, the products would be contained inside the boiler casing.

Lots of Baxis, Vaillants and Glow Worms have had issues with burner seals failing, I wouldn't like that to happen and have the case removed!

 

[chris watkins]

So what sort of PPE do you guys have to use while you work on such dangerous pieces of equipment ? What is it breathing equipment, CO alarms, heat proof gloves not to mention the heat proof visor just incase the door seal goes when you are having a look. Your risk assessments & method statements must be a nightmare to write. I can understand why there is such a premium paid to GS engineers now it really danger money. :hand:

Come on, you are talking to one of your own now, not a customer. I know my way around a boiler & I am not suggesting that the casing be left off when in normal operation.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

It could become unsafe and it wouldn't be a room sealed boiler anymore.

Most modern condensing boilers have a burner which is under positive pressure. Now if a burner seal was to fail, products of combustion would be entering the room if the case was removed. With the case in place, the products would be contained inside the boiler casing.

Lots of Baxis, Vaillants and Glow Worms have had issues with burner seals failing, I wouldn't like that to happen and have the case removed!

baxi have never had one fail on a duotec what model are you referring to ricky?

 

[dancinplumba]

So what sort of PPE do you guys have to use while you work on such dangerous pieces of equipment ? What is it breathing equipment, CO alarms, heat proof gloves not to mention the heat proof visor just incase the door seal goes when you are having a look. Your risk assessments & method statements must be a nightmare to write. I can understand why there is such a premium paid to GS engineers now it really danger money. :hand:

Come on, you are talking to one of your own now, not a customer. I know my way around a boiler & I am not suggesting that the casing be left off when in normal operation.

well, if you were one of us you would know 😉

 

[zeebeedee]

So what sort of PPE do you guys have to use while you work on such dangerous pieces of equipment ? What is it breathing equipment, CO alarms, heat proof gloves not to mention the heat proof visor just incase the door seal goes when you are having a look. Your risk assessments & method statements must be a nightmare to write. I can understand why there is such a premium paid to GS engineers now it really danger money. :hand:

Come on, you are talking to one of your own now, not a customer. I know my way around a boiler & I am not suggesting that the casing be left off when in normal operation.

So your working on boilers unregistered?

 

[R1CKY]

baxi have never had one fail on a duotec what model are you referring to ricky?

Older Baxi models, with the red burner seals that go powdery.

 

[chris watkins]

It could become unsafe and it wouldn't be a room sealed boiler anymore.

Most modern condensing boilers have a burner which is under positive pressure. Now if a burner seal was to fail, products of combustion would be entering the room if the case was removed. With the case in place, the products would be contained inside the boiler casing.

Lots of Baxis, Vaillants and Glow Worms have had issues with burner seals failing, I wouldn't like that to happen and have the case removed!

Ok R1ck, dancin, steveb, & Leo can you tell me the difference in practical operational terms what the difference is between a boiler,oh, lets say a Viessmann Vitodens 100 or 200 W (standard enough boilers, yes ?) running case off & one being installed with an open flue vertical flue kit where it draws it's its air from the room ??? No ? not installed one ? well very handy to know if you are stuck with replacing an old open flued boiler with no horizontal flueing routes, worth a look ! Page 23 [DLMURL]http://www.viessmann.co.uk/content/dam/internet_uk/literature_new_website/dpg_sep2012_4web.pdf[/DLMURL]

 

[chris watkins]

So your working on boilers unregistered?

Only my own, the rest I leave for others to get there hands dirt on. (I am competent CCN1 + just not GSR)

 

[CES]

Perhaps someones pulling some folks chain on here...:lol:

Meet The Vaillant Team Contact us

 

[CES]

I take it thats you Chris?

 

[villa_tom]

No point in falling out over this lads. People will always have different views. It's better when everyone doesn't agree anyway it'd be boring if we agreed on everything all of the time.

Chill man 🙂

 

[Leo21]

Can't be rsed to read it, I don't fit veisman. But on the mi.s of the boilers I fit, it says competent person all over it. Which isn't a sparky or a customer, although I do agree taking a case of in itself is not dangerous. They don't know that, and if you say "oh that's ok" where does it stop. Fiddling round inside, changing components etc etc.