Signing work off?

[Masood]

The whole part of sighning it off means you check they havnt made any mistakes. so if a customer of yours had the gas disconnected and you had to go in after and re commission the appliances - you wouldnt do it?

That's a very different scenario, and you make it clear on the quote & invoice that you're recommissioning existing appliances with a visual check. Commissioning a new appliance means taking responsibility for the quality of the installation, IMO, and that can't be a visual.

 

[Dannypipe]

What annoys me, month in, month out is the little articles in the Gas Safe magazine.

It will always be along the lines of: Jake Scumbag, of Brighton has been found guilty of installing a boiler illegally and fined £600, made to pay costs of £200, and given a 6 month suspended sentence. Mr Scumbags install was inspected by Gas Safe inspectors who found 5 faults, including 2 ID's.

So it's cost him £800, and he's has a suspended (or not at all really) sentence. Yeah that'll deter em!

Stop suspending the prison sentences and it would practically stop over night.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

That's a very different scenario, and you make it clear on the quote & invoice that you're recommissioning existing appliances with a visual check. Commissioning a new appliance means taking responsibility for the quality of the installation, IMO, and that can't be a visual.

why cant you check the quality of an install with a visual inspection.

I have worked for big companies in the past where say one guy goes sick during a job, and you are asked to finish off. Now the other guy has hung the boiler, connected the gas and flue. I would TT, check the gas run through its length, inspect the flue and commission the boiler with all the checks that entails. Are you saying thats illegal.

Now with the above situation in mind, the same senario, however you are self employed and your customers last gsr has gone sick, gone bust whatever, are you saying that you cant sign off that boiler. I would like to think that most gsr have the wits about them to do so

 

[Dannypipe]

why cant you check the quality of an install with a visual inspection.

Because of many factors. You can't see how well they hung the boiler for a start.

I've been to big radiators that have fallen off the wall, fixed with 1" 10's. You don't know if they flushed the system properly, you don't know if there are any hidden comp joints on the gas line, unless you can inspect it all.

I once found a drop on a gas line, when I tracked it down, it was an old green joint, that the installer had forgotten to blow in. No solder at all, just the flux stopping a leak.

I like to know its my work that I'm putting my name to.

 

[tamz]

What annoys me, month in, month out is the little articles in the Gas Safe magazine.

It will always be along the lines of: Jake Scumbag, of Brighton has been found guilty of installing a boiler illegally. Mr Scumbags install was inspected by Gas Safe inspectors who found 5 faults, including 2 ID's.
He was removed from court and tied to a nearly lamp post beside a pile of broken bricks and offcuts of lead pipe. A hospital spokesperson said Mr Scumbag is unlikely to ever walk again far less go back on the tools, so we got a satisfactory result.

Maybe that would work:smile:

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Because of many factors. You can't see how well they hung the boiler for a start.

I've been to big radiators that have fallen off the wall, fixed with 1" 10's. You don't know if they flushed the system properly, you don't know if there are any hidden comp joints on the gas line, unless you can inspect it all.

I once found a drop on a gas line, when I tracked it down, it was an old green joint, that the installer had forgotten to blow in. No solder at all, just the flux stopping a leak.

I like to know its my work that I'm putting my name to.

You dont know these things when your re lighting appliances or carrying out services. Dont know how well theyve hung the boiler is pretty lame argument, give the thing a tug and see

 

[Nostrum]

I agree, not that I would sign of others work. Every time I get asked I say what's the benefit to me? I spend out all the money on quals and expenses only to be offered £50 to write out a certificate?

but I do agree, we walk into houses every day without knowing the standard of work within them. A few months ago I went to a house which transco had capped. Turned out to be an end feed coupling that had never been soldered, the washing machine had banged into it. The house was 16 years old and this pipe was in from new.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Im not making an argument for signing off others work, as stated before i have never done it as i have enough of my own. Im making an argument about the excuses that are offered for not signing off work.

The act of signing off other work on a technical basis is no different from the work we carry out on a day to day basis.

 

[leethegasman]

Because of many factors. You can't see how well they hung the boiler for a start.

I've been to big radiators that have fallen off the wall, fixed with 1" 10's. You don't know if they flushed the system properly, you don't know if there are any hidden comp joints on the gas line, unless you can inspect it all.

I once found a drop on a gas line, when I tracked it down, it was an old green joint, that the installer had forgotten to blow in. No solder at all, just the flux stopping a leak.

I like to know its my work that I'm putting my name to.

Are you saying if you do a boiler swop with the correct size pipework laid in existing floor walls etc that you would uncover all pipework to inspect in case there was a joint not soldered .i do a TT .we have all done work at existing property's where the TT has passed and then come across a unsoldered joint I can not see how we can be responsible for work that is existing all we can do is a visual inspection and TT .

 

[Masood]

why cant you check the quality of an install with a visual inspection.

I have worked for big companies in the past where say one guy goes sick during a job, and you are asked to finish off. Now the other guy has hung the boiler, connected the gas and flue. I would TT, check the gas run through its length, inspect the flue and commission the boiler with all the checks that entails. Are you saying thats illegal.

I'm not saying it's illegal. I'm saying I wouldn't want to just do a cursory examination. The testing you are describing is in-depth, would take time and you'd want paying good money for it. I've got no problem with that. The thread was asking whether you'd sign off someone else's work. I wouldn't unless I knew and trusted them.

Now with the above situation in mind, the same senario, however you are self employed and your customers last gsr has gone sick, gone bust whatever, are you saying that you cant sign off that boiler. I would like to think that most gsr have the wits about them to do so

It's not a matter of having the wits about you to do it, it's how thoroughly you check. In your scenario, let's say the custard has paid the previous GSR most of his money. They want you to sign it off cheap. If they're willing to pay for a proper inspection and commissioning, no problem. If they want a quick glance and a signature, no way.

 

[Masood]

The act of signing off other work on a technical basis is no different from the work we carry out on a day to day basis.

I disagree. A service, or LSC carries a certain expectation, as does a repair. Commissioning a new appliance carries higher expectations, so the onus is on whoever commissions it to carry greater responsibility. If something is wrong with the install and, say, the manufacturer's warranty is void because of it, it's your name on the benchmark, your responsibility to put it right. I'd want a lot more than a visual to take that burden on.

 

[Reza]

Let’s not beat around the bush lads. If one signs off an illegal fitters job, then he or she has betrayed every one of us and the industry at large.

 

[lame plumber]

Let’s not beat around the bush lads. If one signs off an illegal fitters job, then he or she has betrayed every one of us and the industry at large.

hear where your coming from, but if an innocent custard has an illegally installed system, I have gone in and followed the advice on the tb to cover my bum, and its cost the owner almost as much for labour as a normal boiler swap, if not a bit more, as I am covering the whole setup as well once youve signed. done it once, the other times i was asked they didnt like the quote🙂

Having been asked to sign off illegals on other occassions, I reported them to gas safe and trading standards, to have no effect at all as the customers were happy and not complaining, in one case building control went in to look at a big refurb, but were told all the gas work was original and not touched, depite them having asked me to sign of new lpg supplies and cookers etc!!! It wont stop until they stop selling kit to the illegals!

 

[Reza]

Here's a tip. When you do a tightness test, do you record your result! If you use an analyser to do this, you can print off and have proof that you have done a test and it stood up to standard at the time. Otherwise it's your word against the inspector and the court rather take the advice of the inspector. Kane units can have an optional wifi chip installed for £30, then your unit can talk to any other wifi device. With a bit of thought you could log these and keep them for a rainy day.

 

[Reza]

hear where your coming from, but if an innocent custard has an illegally installed system, I have gone in and followed the advice on the tb to cover my bum, and its cost the owner almost as much for labour as a normal boiler swap, if not a bit more, as I am covering the whole setup as well once youve signed. done it once, the other times i was asked they didnt like the quote🙂

Having been asked to sign off illegals on other occassions, I reported them to gas safe and trading standards, to have no effect at all as the customers were happy and not complaining, in one case building control went in to look at a big refurb, but were told all the gas work was original and not touched, depite them having asked me to sign of new lpg supplies and cookers etc!!! It wont stop until they stop selling kit to the illegals!

It's all in the pipe line. I hope you have signed our petition! http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/gas-safety-in-uk.html

 

[lame plumber]

of course🙂

 

[Dannypipe]

You dont know these things when your re lighting appliances or carrying out services. Dont know how well theyve hung the boiler is pretty lame argument, give the thing a tug and see

No but servicing is different to registering. You are registering to say you installed it, so if there is an issue it's down to you.

It may seem lame, and you argue to give it a tug, but I have seen fixings fail, and like I said, I've seen radiators, and towel rails that have fallen off the wall. So I'm not going to put my name to something that I haven't personally hung on the wall. I don't really care if you think it's lame or not. It's up to me.

I don't judge you for your opinion. It might change one day, and so might mine. But personally I think it's wrong to sign others work off. Just look at the 'hall of shame' on here. There are some really useless people out there, banging in terrible work. Not all of that terribleness will be on show!

 

[Reza]

Some of you may know I started a campaign in the hope that one day we get rid of all illegal Gas works in our country. I have found too many people, authorities alike, approaching me and telling me tails on all sorts. I tell you something now, you sign off someone's work following which an accident happens. It really doesn't matter that it's not your fault, you could not imagine how much trouble you are in. As I said, I really have been told too many stories. I got one engineer in Liverpool, left the work in progress over night but didn't cap the supply, even though he took the fuse out and turned the Gas off at the ECV and the boiler, boy is he paying a heavy price right now. We are now calling for tightening of the legislation and asking for raising the standards. Enforcement of the legislation, that's what we are calling for. By the time we are done and if we can make a difference, you know what is to be expected of us and if we put a foot wrong, well !! Looking at this issue so simplistically is easy because you haven't been in trouble with GSR, I haven't either, but we are going to have to practice what we've preached and take every steps in ensuring the standards are met.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Their are plumbers who are not gsr fitting boilers gas meters and doing a TT over the country on new builds and then the gsr fitter on site signs it all off .
Whats your take on that ??

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Their are plumbers who are not gsr fitting boilers gas meters and doing a TT over the country on new builds and then the gsr fitter on site signs it all off .
Whats your take on that ??

It is the GSR guy who is responsible - and in court - if things go wrong.
It may be OK for him to sign it off if he supervised the work and checked the work and is 100% confident that it is as good as if he did it himself.

I also thing we pay twice the rate of Public liability compared to other construction trades except roofers & ground workers.
We spend a load of money & time on training, on going training and GSR but prices are driven so low.

We rarely win straightforward heating jobs - we don't expect to - we're not too expensive but there are other guys who are too cheap! I can't believe what some people are willing to work for.
Perhaps they aren't paying tax and then we are VAT registered and perhaps tjose other guys aren't
All so unfair! Rant over!

BTW we are really really busy, just not with gas work - and what does that say about the going rates for gas work.