Signing work off?

[Derek Hardman]

I know lots of GSR guys who have signed work off in the past, myself included, for a few years now I have always told people who request signing off that we would have to re-install the appliance in order to sign it off, I just read something that might explain why I do this, signing work off is illegal according to gas Safe, therein lies a question (which would be linked to the recent petition), if signing off is illegal, then surely commissioning a non commissioned appliance amounts to the same thing, that is how I would read it, I know some idiots would ignore it anyway, but wouldnt it be good if GSR engineers in general agreed not to sign off or commission appliances after the installation if it is not their own.
What are your thoughts guys and gals!

 

[Masood]

I won't do it. I'm not prepared to take the risk that someone made mistakes that I would inherit responsibility for. I'm paranoid enough about making mistakes myself - I double-check my work all the time, there's no way I could not double-check the work of someone I didn't know and trust!

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

You know you have to go over it to check everything is as it should be - practically re-install. Then you could "sign it off with confidence" -
question is how much would you want to charge £600? What are they expecting to pay? £60?

We have never done it!

 

[Derek Hardman]

What about commissioning Masood?

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

I won't do it. I'm not prepared to take the risk that someone made mistakes that I would inherit responsibility for. I'm paranoid enough about making mistakes myself - I double-check my work all the time, there's no way I could not double-check the work of someone I didn't know and trust!

The whole part of sighning it off means you check they havnt made any mistakes. so if a customer of yours had the gas disconnected and you had to go in after and re commission the appliances - you wouldnt do it?

 

[Derek Hardman]

The whole part of sighning it off means you check they havnt made any mistakes. so if a customer of yours had the gas disconnected and you had to go in after and re commission the appliances - you wouldnt do it?

I meant the original commissioning when the boiler is installed, in that instance No, not anymore, I will turn it off and tell the customer to get the original fitter back to commission, and tell them that if they wont return, to contact GSR.

 

[Toxic Ted]

If i dont install it, then i wont commission or sign it off for anyone.....end of

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

i dont see its any less safe to commission a new appliance over an old one. You have to use your judgement and knowledge to make sure its operating safely

 

[Derek Hardman]

The point is, customers will eventually get to realise that they should get a GSR engineer in first time, and engineers will start to realise that they must commission properly as most of us do.

 

[rab250]

Re-commissioning and signing off are 2 different things in my head.
Signing off is legalising an install, putting your name to it.
If a g/s engineer signs off illegal installs then he is a fool not only to himself but to the industry as a whole.
re-commissioning is making sure the installation will operate in a safe manner.
its like when landlords get a new boiler fitted (illegally) and get a gs record carried out. Your the last man on the job

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

what if the first guy is gsr but his company wont let him sign off other 'weekend' jobs

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

whats an illegal install? the act of you signing it off makes it legal, assuming you do the final gas connection

 

[Derek Hardman]

If by weekend job, you mean a foreigner,
then he is working out of scope, so still shouldnt be done

 

[rab250]

what if the first guy is gsr but his company wont let him sign off other 'weekend' jobs

Then he shouldn't be doing it because he is not gas safe registered in his own right.

 

[Derek Hardman]

I asked for opinions, and received some, gasmanxxxR1, you are obviously happy to do this, I am not, and whilst there is a difference in opinion, there are grey areas and danger, hence the need to have the legislation made more clear.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

I asked for opinions, and received some, gasmanxxxR1, you are obviously happy to do this, I am not, and whilst there is a difference in opinion, there are grey areas and danger, hence the need to have the legislation made more clear.

I totally agree with you, i actually dont sign off others work, ive got enough of my own. I just wanted to put the other side of the argument. Dont need to be gsr to drill some holes, use brown wall plugs, core out flues etc

 

[Reza]

We are dealing with a situation that has been left to fester for a long time, only bold measures will bring it back in line with what should be a standard today. A boiler with no commissioning record is classed as non-commissioned and as such the relevant unsafe procedure should apply. This will bring those loopholes in the private rented sector into a dead-end. If a boiler has been installed through legal means, then GSR must hold records on it, one phone call to GSR and they can confirm it. If there's no record and no commissioning document, turn it off and badge it.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

We are dealing with a situation that has been left to fester for a long time, only bold measures will bring it back in line with what should be a standard today. A boiler with no commissioning record is classed as non-commissioned and as such the relevant unsafe procedure should apply. This will bring those loopholes in the private rented sector into a dead-end. If a boiler has been installed through legal means, then GSR must hold records on it, one phone call to GSR and they can confirm it. If there's no record and no commissioning document, turn it off and badge it.

But couldnt you use your knowledge and skill to check the appliance is working safely and leave the custard with heating and hot water?

 

[Reza]

Yes but I won't be doing the industry a favour, which is why I say bold measures are needed to rectify a lot that's wrong in our industry.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

what bold measures would you like to see

 

[Reza]

Our proposal was submitted to GSR, they agreed there were interesting points, but out of their remit. I'd like to see Gas Safety regulations enforced. No grey areas, I don't want to legalise a work that an illegal fitter had done, by checking it and ticking it for the sake of customer having heat and hot water. If I did, I would never get rid of illegal fitters.

 

[Reza]

I would like to see RIDDORs addressed, I would like to see simplifying the unsafe situation to either NCS or Dangerous. AR is a get out claw and it serves no purpose. I would like to see sales of Gas appliances to become licensed, an much more.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

i like the gas applices to be licensed, think that should be done

 

[Reza]

I know of a Landlord who uses a handyman to do all his work and I mean all his work. He has 70 properties and he never has any of his appliances fitted by professionals. As you know, a Landlord with a Gas Safety record is not in breach of any laws. Where can we go with this! If you don't shut off his boiler what else will stop this!

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

have to take each case on its merits, i defo wouldnt do land lords any favours, hate em with a passion

 

[Reza]

It's taking each case on its own merit that separates us from a standardisation that this industry severely lacks. I class something NCS, you class it as AR and GSR classes it as ID! No sir, we need all to read from the same hymn sheet.

 

[lame plumber]

gas safe produced a good tb explaining how you have to approach this issue. I wont do it unless I can follow the tb word for word and it wont be cheap. Re clout everytime i have approached gas safe re illegal work the customer hasnt complained so no further issue in their mind, despite my knowing the builder installing it was illegal!

 

[leethegasman]

I did a boiler quote for a customer and it turned out a relation of the customer was gas safe for a company.and did it at the weekend.i then receive a call from the customer could I register the boiler as it was stopping the sale of the house.i told customer I could not register the boiler as this should be done by the installer.but told customer that I could inspect the installation and issue a homeowner safety report.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I agree 100% not to sign anyone's work !
I always answer the Question can you with NO .
today I had a call someone I know who used to do power flush for the company I used to sub
" stan what it's f29 on a new Vaillant ?"
me : why
he : " I fitted a new boiler "
me: you fitted a boiler you ain't gsr let alone knowing how boiler works
he : stan don't worry
me : you will go to prison if anything goes wrong
he : stan do you know what a f 29 is ?
me: I think no gas
he : thank you and don't worry about me
this man could not tel which is flow or return pipe on a boiler and hi fitted a boiler ....

 

[tamz]

It isn't illegal to sign work of but it is frowned upon and not recommended.
Personally i have never signed anything off for anyone, ever and never will.
But think of how lots of the the big site or contracting companies work. One gsr guy for 20 installers. The work is all done and dusted (and most often fired up) then the one guy goes around doing the checks and signing it off. Maybe they should clamp down on that carry on but it won't happen.

 

[mitchellcook]

Back last October I was sub'd to work on a site where we fitted about 40 boilers. On about the second day the boss asked me to commission/sign off the boiler and unvented cylinder. I was new on site and said yes.

The boss' younger brother fitted it, who was fresh out of college and gs. I watched him earlier trying to do a tt with his regin gauge with the bung still in one end!

I done a tt, he said "don't worry the tt was sound". I said no, i'm going to fully commission it as normal. Surprise, surprise 3mbar leak on boiler union.

 

[lame plumber]

only way to stop illegal work is to stop selling them the kit, bit hard with ebay etc but not impossible, just takes a government minister with some balls, something you dont see a lot of now Maggies gone

 

[tamz]

Although i was no fan of the woman i admit she had balls to stand up for what she believed in.

Does anyone really think the powers that be are interested in saving a dozen or so lives a year when there is money to be made. They certainly won't stop waging war on half the world with all the deaths and casualties that brings about but it keeps someone in work and makes moiney.
No government of any persuasion will ever ban the sale of gas products unless some MP's kids die from a diy or unregistered fitter and they take it up as a personal crusade.

 

[Derek Hardman]

It isn't illegal to sign work of but it is frowned upon and not recommended.

 

[AWheating]

you need to ask yourself the question "do i know that the person who did the installation is correctly register'd with the correct qualifications?"

So working on a building site, if you know that the installation was done by a competent person then i see no problem with commissioning an appliance and system. If you dont know the details of who did the work then your in a grey area and you should request the information from the company your working for. In my eyes the plumbing company is legally responsible if they have allowed illegal work, and they should have records of who did what work.

it was alot better when the benchmark had a section for you to put the installers name and gs details and then your details as the commissioning engineer. why did they stop this?

so in the eyes of the law, for you to cover yourself i guess you need to know and prove that the installtion was done by a competent, register'd person.

me personally i would never do such a thing. Most people who do such work could not give a carp about the standard of the work, pipe sizing etc..... as there name is not going against it.

 

[Reza]

As you quoted, It isn't illegal to sign off works. Nowhere in the GSIUR would you find that, but every job you sign off (A) You are taking the risk of someone else's work knowing they are not even Gas trained, (B) You are promoting illegal works and thereby taking our industry one step closer to the cliff.

 

[Derek Hardman]

It IS illegal to sign off work done by an unregistered fitter, but not to sign off the work of a registered fitter.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Our proposal was submitted to GSR, they agreed there were interesting points, but out of their remit. I'd like to see Gas Safety regulations enforced. No grey areas, I don't want to legalise a work that an illegal fitter had done, by checking it and ticking it for the sake of customer having heat and hot water. If I did, I would never get rid of illegal fitters.

RESA
Can you you start new thread to post the proposal you made to GSR. I would like to see it, I am sure other would too.

 

[Linkyplumb]

The way I see it:

Why should I sign off work by someone, who obviously is actively seeking financial reward from a customer. If they want to earn fitting boilers, then go get their acs, fga and calibration etc, extra insurance, gas safe reg. the list goes on.

Incase you are unsure, I never sign off anyone elses works

 

[Dotty]

RESA
Can you you start new thread to post the proposal you made to GSR. I would like to see it, I am sure other would too.

This is it here Debs

http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/g...orum/52767-petition-reform-uk-gas-safety.html

 

[Masood]

The whole part of sighning it off means you check they havnt made any mistakes. so if a customer of yours had the gas disconnected and you had to go in after and re commission the appliances - you wouldnt do it?

That's a very different scenario, and you make it clear on the quote & invoice that you're recommissioning existing appliances with a visual check. Commissioning a new appliance means taking responsibility for the quality of the installation, IMO, and that can't be a visual.

 

[Dannypipe]

What annoys me, month in, month out is the little articles in the Gas Safe magazine.

It will always be along the lines of: Jake Scumbag, of Brighton has been found guilty of installing a boiler illegally and fined £600, made to pay costs of £200, and given a 6 month suspended sentence. Mr Scumbags install was inspected by Gas Safe inspectors who found 5 faults, including 2 ID's.

So it's cost him £800, and he's has a suspended (or not at all really) sentence. Yeah that'll deter em!

Stop suspending the prison sentences and it would practically stop over night.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

That's a very different scenario, and you make it clear on the quote & invoice that you're recommissioning existing appliances with a visual check. Commissioning a new appliance means taking responsibility for the quality of the installation, IMO, and that can't be a visual.

why cant you check the quality of an install with a visual inspection.

I have worked for big companies in the past where say one guy goes sick during a job, and you are asked to finish off. Now the other guy has hung the boiler, connected the gas and flue. I would TT, check the gas run through its length, inspect the flue and commission the boiler with all the checks that entails. Are you saying thats illegal.

Now with the above situation in mind, the same senario, however you are self employed and your customers last gsr has gone sick, gone bust whatever, are you saying that you cant sign off that boiler. I would like to think that most gsr have the wits about them to do so

 

[Dannypipe]

why cant you check the quality of an install with a visual inspection.

Because of many factors. You can't see how well they hung the boiler for a start.

I've been to big radiators that have fallen off the wall, fixed with 1" 10's. You don't know if they flushed the system properly, you don't know if there are any hidden comp joints on the gas line, unless you can inspect it all.

I once found a drop on a gas line, when I tracked it down, it was an old green joint, that the installer had forgotten to blow in. No solder at all, just the flux stopping a leak.

I like to know its my work that I'm putting my name to.

 

[tamz]

What annoys me, month in, month out is the little articles in the Gas Safe magazine.

It will always be along the lines of: Jake Scumbag, of Brighton has been found guilty of installing a boiler illegally. Mr Scumbags install was inspected by Gas Safe inspectors who found 5 faults, including 2 ID's.
He was removed from court and tied to a nearly lamp post beside a pile of broken bricks and offcuts of lead pipe. A hospital spokesperson said Mr Scumbag is unlikely to ever walk again far less go back on the tools, so we got a satisfactory result.

Maybe that would work:smile:

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Because of many factors. You can't see how well they hung the boiler for a start.

I've been to big radiators that have fallen off the wall, fixed with 1" 10's. You don't know if they flushed the system properly, you don't know if there are any hidden comp joints on the gas line, unless you can inspect it all.

I once found a drop on a gas line, when I tracked it down, it was an old green joint, that the installer had forgotten to blow in. No solder at all, just the flux stopping a leak.

I like to know its my work that I'm putting my name to.

You dont know these things when your re lighting appliances or carrying out services. Dont know how well theyve hung the boiler is pretty lame argument, give the thing a tug and see

 

[Nostrum]

I agree, not that I would sign of others work. Every time I get asked I say what's the benefit to me? I spend out all the money on quals and expenses only to be offered £50 to write out a certificate?

but I do agree, we walk into houses every day without knowing the standard of work within them. A few months ago I went to a house which transco had capped. Turned out to be an end feed coupling that had never been soldered, the washing machine had banged into it. The house was 16 years old and this pipe was in from new.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Im not making an argument for signing off others work, as stated before i have never done it as i have enough of my own. Im making an argument about the excuses that are offered for not signing off work.

The act of signing off other work on a technical basis is no different from the work we carry out on a day to day basis.

 

[leethegasman]

Because of many factors. You can't see how well they hung the boiler for a start.

I've been to big radiators that have fallen off the wall, fixed with 1" 10's. You don't know if they flushed the system properly, you don't know if there are any hidden comp joints on the gas line, unless you can inspect it all.

I once found a drop on a gas line, when I tracked it down, it was an old green joint, that the installer had forgotten to blow in. No solder at all, just the flux stopping a leak.

I like to know its my work that I'm putting my name to.

Are you saying if you do a boiler swop with the correct size pipework laid in existing floor walls etc that you would uncover all pipework to inspect in case there was a joint not soldered .i do a TT .we have all done work at existing property's where the TT has passed and then come across a unsoldered joint I can not see how we can be responsible for work that is existing all we can do is a visual inspection and TT .

 

[Masood]

why cant you check the quality of an install with a visual inspection.

I have worked for big companies in the past where say one guy goes sick during a job, and you are asked to finish off. Now the other guy has hung the boiler, connected the gas and flue. I would TT, check the gas run through its length, inspect the flue and commission the boiler with all the checks that entails. Are you saying thats illegal.

I'm not saying it's illegal. I'm saying I wouldn't want to just do a cursory examination. The testing you are describing is in-depth, would take time and you'd want paying good money for it. I've got no problem with that. The thread was asking whether you'd sign off someone else's work. I wouldn't unless I knew and trusted them.

Now with the above situation in mind, the same senario, however you are self employed and your customers last gsr has gone sick, gone bust whatever, are you saying that you cant sign off that boiler. I would like to think that most gsr have the wits about them to do so

It's not a matter of having the wits about you to do it, it's how thoroughly you check. In your scenario, let's say the custard has paid the previous GSR most of his money. They want you to sign it off cheap. If they're willing to pay for a proper inspection and commissioning, no problem. If they want a quick glance and a signature, no way.

 

[Masood]

The act of signing off other work on a technical basis is no different from the work we carry out on a day to day basis.

I disagree. A service, or LSC carries a certain expectation, as does a repair. Commissioning a new appliance carries higher expectations, so the onus is on whoever commissions it to carry greater responsibility. If something is wrong with the install and, say, the manufacturer's warranty is void because of it, it's your name on the benchmark, your responsibility to put it right. I'd want a lot more than a visual to take that burden on.

 

[Reza]

Let’s not beat around the bush lads. If one signs off an illegal fitters job, then he or she has betrayed every one of us and the industry at large.

 

[lame plumber]

Let’s not beat around the bush lads. If one signs off an illegal fitters job, then he or she has betrayed every one of us and the industry at large.

hear where your coming from, but if an innocent custard has an illegally installed system, I have gone in and followed the advice on the tb to cover my bum, and its cost the owner almost as much for labour as a normal boiler swap, if not a bit more, as I am covering the whole setup as well once youve signed. done it once, the other times i was asked they didnt like the quote🙂

Having been asked to sign off illegals on other occassions, I reported them to gas safe and trading standards, to have no effect at all as the customers were happy and not complaining, in one case building control went in to look at a big refurb, but were told all the gas work was original and not touched, depite them having asked me to sign of new lpg supplies and cookers etc!!! It wont stop until they stop selling kit to the illegals!

 

[Reza]

Here's a tip. When you do a tightness test, do you record your result! If you use an analyser to do this, you can print off and have proof that you have done a test and it stood up to standard at the time. Otherwise it's your word against the inspector and the court rather take the advice of the inspector. Kane units can have an optional wifi chip installed for £30, then your unit can talk to any other wifi device. With a bit of thought you could log these and keep them for a rainy day.

 

[Reza]

hear where your coming from, but if an innocent custard has an illegally installed system, I have gone in and followed the advice on the tb to cover my bum, and its cost the owner almost as much for labour as a normal boiler swap, if not a bit more, as I am covering the whole setup as well once youve signed. done it once, the other times i was asked they didnt like the quote🙂

Having been asked to sign off illegals on other occassions, I reported them to gas safe and trading standards, to have no effect at all as the customers were happy and not complaining, in one case building control went in to look at a big refurb, but were told all the gas work was original and not touched, depite them having asked me to sign of new lpg supplies and cookers etc!!! It wont stop until they stop selling kit to the illegals!

It's all in the pipe line. I hope you have signed our petition! http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/gas-safety-in-uk.html

 

[lame plumber]

of course🙂

 

[Dannypipe]

You dont know these things when your re lighting appliances or carrying out services. Dont know how well theyve hung the boiler is pretty lame argument, give the thing a tug and see

No but servicing is different to registering. You are registering to say you installed it, so if there is an issue it's down to you.

It may seem lame, and you argue to give it a tug, but I have seen fixings fail, and like I said, I've seen radiators, and towel rails that have fallen off the wall. So I'm not going to put my name to something that I haven't personally hung on the wall. I don't really care if you think it's lame or not. It's up to me.

I don't judge you for your opinion. It might change one day, and so might mine. But personally I think it's wrong to sign others work off. Just look at the 'hall of shame' on here. There are some really useless people out there, banging in terrible work. Not all of that terribleness will be on show!

 

[Reza]

Some of you may know I started a campaign in the hope that one day we get rid of all illegal Gas works in our country. I have found too many people, authorities alike, approaching me and telling me tails on all sorts. I tell you something now, you sign off someone's work following which an accident happens. It really doesn't matter that it's not your fault, you could not imagine how much trouble you are in. As I said, I really have been told too many stories. I got one engineer in Liverpool, left the work in progress over night but didn't cap the supply, even though he took the fuse out and turned the Gas off at the ECV and the boiler, boy is he paying a heavy price right now. We are now calling for tightening of the legislation and asking for raising the standards. Enforcement of the legislation, that's what we are calling for. By the time we are done and if we can make a difference, you know what is to be expected of us and if we put a foot wrong, well !! Looking at this issue so simplistically is easy because you haven't been in trouble with GSR, I haven't either, but we are going to have to practice what we've preached and take every steps in ensuring the standards are met.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Their are plumbers who are not gsr fitting boilers gas meters and doing a TT over the country on new builds and then the gsr fitter on site signs it all off .
Whats your take on that ??

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Their are plumbers who are not gsr fitting boilers gas meters and doing a TT over the country on new builds and then the gsr fitter on site signs it all off .
Whats your take on that ??

It is the GSR guy who is responsible - and in court - if things go wrong.
It may be OK for him to sign it off if he supervised the work and checked the work and is 100% confident that it is as good as if he did it himself.

I also thing we pay twice the rate of Public liability compared to other construction trades except roofers & ground workers.
We spend a load of money & time on training, on going training and GSR but prices are driven so low.

We rarely win straightforward heating jobs - we don't expect to - we're not too expensive but there are other guys who are too cheap! I can't believe what some people are willing to work for.
Perhaps they aren't paying tax and then we are VAT registered and perhaps tjose other guys aren't
All so unfair! Rant over!

BTW we are really really busy, just not with gas work - and what does that say about the going rates for gas work.

 

[Reza]

Their are plumbers who are not gsr fitting boilers gas meters and doing a TT over the country on new builds and then the gsr fitter on site signs it all off .
Whats your take on that ??

Then contact Robert Briscall on 07968 177223 Regional Investigation Officer, Gas Safe Register. Look it's simple. If you'd get burgled you would call the cops wouldn't you! How is this any different, those who sign off work steal from every other engineer who do everything to the text. I wouldn't think twice, shop them in, that's what I say. The industry needs a methodical cleansing.

 

[leethegasman]

I meant the original commissioning when the boiler is installed, in that instance No, not anymore, I will turn it off and tell the customer to get the original fitter back to commission, and tell them that if they wont return, to contact GSR.

I may have miss understood this one.are you saying that every boiler service you do you you ask the customer for the commissioning paper work and also confirm that the boiler has been registered.and if this is not provided you turn the appliance off.
Because I would think a large amount of boilers are not registered.the last time I was on my Gas refresher there was a class of 8 and they all seamed to no what they where doing except for one.the trainer stated talking about Alpha getting out of doing warranty work if the boiler was not registered, which I agree with.i and one other where the only company in the room that registered appliances.so in that one room there must have been hundreds of appliances being fitted illegal. that at some point one of us will be asked to service.i did say to them all what is the point in you being gas safe if you don't register the appliance.

 

[Derek Hardman]

I may have miss understood this one.are you saying that every boiler service you do you you ask the customer for the commissioning paper work and also confirm that the boiler has been registered.and if this is not provided you turn the appliance off.
Because I would think a large amount of boilers are not registered.the last time I was on my Gas refresher there was a class of 8 and they all seamed to no what they where doing except for one.the trainer stated talking about Alpha getting out of doing warranty work if the boiler was not registered, which I agree with.i and one other where the only company in the room that registered appliances.so in that one room there must have been hundreds of appliances being fitted illegal. that at some point one of us will be asked to service.i did say to them all what is the point in you being gas safe if you don't register the appliance.

Yes, these days I turn them off, have commissioned them in the past, if there is no benchmark commissioning, I check if it is registered, if not it goes off, the only way to stop the public having cowboys doing gas work is by making them understand that the end result id inconvenience and more expense, if everyone did it the same way the illegal installs would reduce significantly.

 

[Nostrum]

I can see where you are heading and I think we all want to be able to compete equally with other companies with the same overheads, and not see the dodgy installs and dangerous situations. Having said that though, we abide by the regulations in force as set out by the big cheese who made them regulation. We have to abide by these rules as much as the cowboys.

With that in mind, I cant see what authority we have turning off a perfectly safe appliance because you found it hadn't been notified. Technically you have a duty of care to the occupant in the house, and whilst we obviously can't ignore the safety issues, are we in a position to cut off some bodies heat and hot water?

Also, is it our job to police this industry in the way we feel fit at the time?

There will be times where gas safe fail to log the notification properly, or where a rule abiding company forget to register etc. The call for better enforcement is a good one, but who is going to do this, and at what cost to the registered installer and equally the customer?

I think education is a big part in this, how many times do you get asked for your gas safe card? I can think of a handful of times over the 14 years I've been in the industry, most of those were when I was fresh out of apprenticeship and looked about 12 (still blessed with youthful looks) shock style advertising like they use for cigarettes or seat belt adverts would help.

 

[Derek Hardman]

Capita allready have a system in place which could be used to licence gas appliances, they use it for tv licencing, that would be the best way, and for insurance companies to demand a valid service cert with the annual policy.
I try my best to determine if any attemot at all has been made to register and commission properly before I act, when nothing has been completed it is not usually a kosher job and I treat it as such. In other words, I dont take any risks.

 

[Nostrum]

Definitely agree with insurance companies being more forceful about annual servicing, not sure if they do void policies on that basis, I actually tell people they can as I'm sure they would if the boiler caught fire etc

licensing gas appliances will never happen, also it goes back to another post I made re: DIY gas. There is nothing to stop somebody fitting their own boiler, then getting building control to sign it off. The regulations only state you must be competent to do so. As of yet there is no definitive answer for proving competence, only incompetence.

 

[AWheating]

most home insurance policys have something in them stating that poor maintenence can result in the insurance being void. How many have there home electrics checked every 10years ?? may void a claim if you have a electrical fire.

 

[leethegasman]

Their are plumbers who are not gsr fitting boilers gas meters and doing a TT over the country on new builds and then the gsr fitter on site signs it all off .
Whats your take on that ??

I worked on new builds for 12 years and all the lads where always GSR and it is not unusual for these kind of company's to have someone else GSR checking over the work.

 

[Reza]

What happens when you sign off a boiler! Within 4 weeks, the home owner gets a notification licence from GSR, the document encourages the household to invite GSR for a free inspection. Suddenly your back side is up for a chance that the household doesn't call GSR in, day and night you'll be praying to God, there will be no dispute for as long as that boiler is on the wall, because I tell you, no matter how thorough you think you've been with your checks, GSR will find something wrong! Do I need to go on describing the rest!

 

[Dannypipe]

While we're on the subject of insurance, for any of you oil guys.

It's sometimes worth telling your customer that unless they declare on their building insurance that they are storing oil on their property they may not be covered in the event of a tank leak. Which when you consider they astounding amount of money it can take to resolve the damage from an oil leak, is not good news.

I worked at a property where the oil tank (plastic unbunded) was in a store room to the side of the house. My guys were on site doing work in the massive basement which ran under the whole of the house (which was a massive victorian place).

Anyway the fridge in the store room set on fire. Random electrical fault. Luckilly one of the lads smelt the smoke and put it out. Normally no one would have been there.

Best case the tank would have melted and flooded the whole basement with oil. Worse case the place would have burned to the ground.

This house must be worth £3 Million. It would have been a bad day for them. I got them to check their insurance details. Not covered (covered now).

(Oh and we did some work to make safe the oil tank in the future).

 

[Nostrum]

What happens when you sign off a boiler! Within 4 weeks, the home owner gets a notification licence from GSR, the document encourages the household to invite GSR for a free inspection. Suddenly your back side is up for a chance that the household doesn't call GSR in, day and night you'll be praying to God, there will be no dispute for as long as that boiler is on the wall, because I tell you, no matter how thorough you think you've been with your checks, GSR will find something wrong! Do I need to go on describing the rest!

I've had an un informed inspection from gas safe and would happily let them do it again. Didn't find anything wrong. Im sure they could have if they wanted to but they aren't out to string you up by your balls. Again it comes down to education. How many customer know about the notification process, or the consequences of not receiving one?

How about the customer applying for a notification prior to the job being completed, then the installer self certifying that installation using some unique number on the notification. If the customer doesn't receive confirmation of it they can chase the installer, or better still gas safe can do that. The system as it stands is flawed because the installer has all the cards and keeps the notification secret to an unsuspecting customer.

 

[Reg Man]

What is the definition of signing off work? If you are signing it off because you are misleading someone into thinking that you have installed the installation when you have not, then you take the consequence's if it goes bad. At the end of the day if your asked out to commission an appliance which you know to be installed by a none registered person, you carry out rigorous examination of the installation, do all the necessary tests and make it clear on the paperwork what you were there to do and that the installer is unknown or otherwise. Report the non registered person if known to GSR. Therefore you are only there to ensure that on the day of your visit the installation was gas tight and the appliance was installed as far as you could see in accordance with manufacturer instructions and passed all relevant tests. In the commercial industrial world of gas fitting, it is usual for the install to be done by others and the commissioning to be carried out by another company, not a lot of difference.

 

[Dannypipe]

Yeah, but we're talking about domestic work on the whole here. Which is a different beast, and it's generally frowned upon.

 

[Reg Man]

Yeah, but we're talking about domestic work on the whole here. Which is a different beast, and it's generally frowned upon.

Ok agree with that, what about the rest of the post.

 

[Masood]

What is the definition of signing off work? If you are signing it off because you are misleading someone into thinking that you have installed the installation when you have not, then you take the consequence's if it goes bad. At the end of the day if your asked out to commission an appliance which you know to be installed by a none registered person, you carry out rigorous examination of the installation, do all the necessary tests and make it clear on the paperwork what you were there to do and that the installer is unknown or otherwise. Report the non registered person if known to GSR. Therefore you are only there to ensure that on the day of your visit the installation was gas tight and the appliance was installed as far as you could see in accordance with manufacturer instructions and passed all relevant tests. In the commercial industrial world of gas fitting, it is usual for the install to be done by others and the commissioning to be carried out by another company, not a lot of difference.

You make a very valid point, and IF that were the case - that I was given free reign to inspect and test everything to my satisfaction (and be properly paid for my time) then I'd have no problem commissioning an installation. But in general, a GSR will be asked to sign off a third-party install because the customer is a tightwad and doesn't want to pay so has employed a non-GSR to install the appliance (or has done it him/herself).

For the record, I have commissioned and registered one installation by a non-GSR person. My father in law installed his own boiler during a refurb of his place. He is a former ship's engineer and chartered electrical engineer. His soldering/welding/electrics and engineering knowledge would put 99% of plumbers to shame. I had no qualms about doing it because I know the quality of his work, he asked lots of questions beforehand to make sure he did it right, and he called me at various stages to double-check things. He did it for the job satisfaction, not to penny-pinch or cut corners, and I had no issues putting my name to it.

 

[plumbdoctor]

Very good post here, but really it makes no difference to servicing a boiler that was installed before all the signing off came in, you may be unlucky enough to miss something and cos your the last one there your liable for the installation not the dodgey installation installer, and I do not sign off any work not worth it !

 

[Deleted member 44451]

signing off someone elses work should never happen, i have been asked to do it but have always refused. not only are you putting your name to work that you havent done but also killing our trade and encouraging anyone out there who watches a diy program on telly to have a go. if everyone refused to do it then people would stop asking, but i have heard many times down the years guys saying i would rather go and do that and earn a few quid that sit at home all day earning nothing.some people like to call our industry a profession, its never that because we dont stick together like a professional body its every man for himself and always has been.

 

[Derek Hardman]

Good post supaplum, we should be batting for the same side, I do believe that some are beginning to understand that this would be of benefit, which of course means that some are not!

 

[leethegasman]

I personally think that the only way that all gas appliances will be registered is if it hits customers in the pocket.if every appliance has say £300 added on to it by the manufacturer and when the appliance is installed and registered the £300 is then sent to the installer or customer.this would stop all the GSR installers doing cash installs and GSR installers that work for company's doing installs on the side.and also DIY.but let's not kid are selfs a lot of installs done by fully registered installers look like DIY work.i personally think we work in a industry where the quality of work is poor.and possibly why most installers stay on there own and don't grow the business.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

I think our main problem isnt unregistered engineers, its legit ones who cut their own throat and ours by doing installs for materials + £150, its just crazy some of the quotes im getting beat on

Either that or my merchant is pulling my pants down:smile:

 

[Derek Hardman]

It seems every new self employed gasman wants to undercut everybody!!!

 

[TBServices]

It seems every new self employed gasman wants to undercut everybody!!!

Not me, I'm like Stella Artois

 

[Deleted member 44451]

It seems every new self employed gasman wants to undercut everybody!!!

yep im getting the same, at one time i was getting most boiler changes i was quoting, not bcos i was cheap but people get you out and they just want a good job doing. thats all changed in recent times and its all down to money. and theres loads of guys out there looking for work and just undercutting everybody to keep busy. you can spot them in the merchants covered in crap eyes hanging out from working seven days a week for the last 5 years. busy fools !

 

[Derek Hardman]

I purposely put my price anywhere except the last sentence of the last page, I was slightly satisfied when a customer rang to say he got my quote, but there was no price on it, I told him 'that is because it is on page 2, you obviously missed that when you went right to the last page for the costs'!!!

 

[peteheat]

I am RGI but do very little in the line of service or repairs simply because I hate the thoughts of signing off on a system that could have a hidden fault.

Maybe change the wording from Gas Safe to something like Anti Explosion Testing.

Seriously this must be one of the only industries where we are in control of an explosive entering a domestic or commercial premises, even Airports and
yet from what I see one of the lowest paid?

Recently I was asked to tender issuing Gas safe certs also known as a service to gas boilers for a local authority, so before the official tender I threw
out a figure for the Clerk of Works just looking to see if I could get a guide.

I got a lot more in fact I reckon he hasn't slept properly because he hasn't stopped laughing, I was over 4 times higher than the expected figure
which was a drop of €4.00 on last years price maybe not the exact numbers as it was pre-tender but a major shock to me.

How many have forgotten the Gas Safety modules and the exams?

They expect to meet or even beat their expected figure because so many have qualified doing courses and are now able to legally register as RGI's.

Looks like the nine minute gas boiler service is going to continue getting faster until there is a major tragedy, I would not like to be the RGI that day.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

I think our main problem isnt unregistered engineers, its legit ones who cut their own throat and ours by doing installs for materials + £150, its just crazy some of the quotes im getting beat on

Either that or my merchant is pulling my pants down:smile:

I totally agree.
For example - Mr TP now mid 40s trained as apprentice from 16 - so has a bit of experience behind him.
We are lucky, we are busy and making a good living - BUT not from gas work. We could totally give up being GSR for what it brings in for our family. Our main income from Tara Plumbing is plumbing and associated work that require NO formal qualifications, trade body etc...

That just seems mad - you would think being qualified and GSR would give you access to well paid work that the Vast majority of the population can't do.
Any one can do tiling (even I have done it!) - but the tiler seems to earn as much or more!

Recently we quoted for a complicated 4-5 day heating job and 2 others under cut us by £2k! How did they do that?
OK if they were not VAT registered that gives them a head start anyway but they must be desperate for the work!
Because they certainly are not putting a high enough value on the fact of their training... etc.
(BTW the customer assured us that they were like to like quotes).

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

i better get on that tiling short course, the daily mail said they earn £90k +

 

[Dannypipe]

Tilers do make good money, but tiling is horrible. I can do it to a good standard, but not quickly. Nearly all the tiling on my portfolio was done by my father, brother or the carpenter who works for me. He's probably the best tiler I've ever met, but by trade he's a joiner.

 

[TBServices]

Tilers do make good money, but tiling is horrible. I can do it to a good standard, but not quickly. Nearly all the tiling on my portfolio was done by my father, brother or the carpenter who works for me. He's probably the best tiler I've ever met, but by trade he's a joiner.

I hate tiling 🙁 but it doubles profit on bathroom jobs so I end up doing it.

 

[Derek Hardman]

I wouldnt let anyone else do the tiling if I were doing a bathroom. Oh sheeet!! Im a control freak!

 

[TBServices]

I wouldnt let anyone else do the tiling if I were doing a bathroom. Oh sheeet!! Im a control freak!

This is my problem also. I can't trust anyone else to meet my standards, except for 1 guy I know who is always too busy.

 

[Dannypipe]

I find it doesn't double the profit for me, as it takes me longer than someone who's better than me!

I own a £1400 Rubi Bridge saw, which makes life a little easier, as it is a joy to use, but a bit of a beast.

I tiled the floor of the last bathroom we did. Quickly remembered why I avoid it!

 

[Dannypipe]

I'm fortunete that the guys I work with work to such high standards, so I trust them over myself!

 

[TBServices]

I find it doesn't double the profit for me, as it takes me longer than someone who's better than me!

I own a £1400 Rubi Bridge saw, which makes life a little easier, as it is a joy to use, but a bit of a beast.

I tiled the floor of the last bathroom we did. Quickly remembered why I avoid it!

I charge the same for tiling as I do for plumbing. Based on a day rate. If they dont like my rates they can find their own tiler, but i find that putting in a price for the whole job works in my favour. And usually there's more tiling work than plumbing.