Those of you with apprentices

[mfgs]

I have had an apprentice for 3 months now. He is doing ok, and just ok. I have put a lot of time in to teaching him etc but at the moment the only real thing he is good for is tidying up and getting the tools. Last night I get a text message at 9.30 which reads "Alright mate have just been thinking, iv been with you a while now and I think I have progressed a lot in that time so id like to suggest a raise in wages please mate. Lemme know what you think"

He is on £3.30 an hour, so above the minimum wage for a first year apprentice, but he certainly doesn't earn me any more than I pay him in a week. To be honest the cheek of asking has really wound me up. He has been far from the model employee to date and I have given him possibly more chances than I should have done. Examples of this are taking breaks for cigarettes when it has been made clear that the only time for smoking is lunch time, after doing any small amount of physical work I have caught him just sitting around having a break or walking off to the shop, not being ready when I pick him up from his house in the mornings. I am now thinking about getting rid of him if this is a sign of things to come. I never once asked for a pay rise while I was an apprentice, I was happy for the opportunity to be taught the trade I wanted to do.

Anyone had a similar experience and how did you deal with it?

 

[EPH]

Three months isn't long enough to either be able to be in a position to help you that much or be asking for a pay rise in all honesty.

How old is he, you getting subsidised?

 

[Kev the gas]

Few thoughts come to mind :-
firstly a bollocking for txting at 9.30 pm on a Saturday night, for not having the balls to ask to your face needing his mates to egg him on.

Then tell him to give up the **** and save £10 a day. He probably could earn more now stacking shelves, but in 10 years time he will still be stacking.

 

[parkesy_plumb]

i dont have an apprentice and to be honest i dont think i ever will. The youth nowadays dont want to learn .. they just want an easy ride. I had a tough time as an apprentice because i really wanted to learn but the guys i was put with were on price work and were too greedy to show me much .. just a gopher for first 2 years .. but that made me more determined to learn .. do that to a young un now and they will just huff off.

Heard a tale from a bloke round here where his apprentice was selling his tools from back of van while he was working inside!

Good young lads are hard to come by and i think in your case mate id bin him off.

 

[Hybrid]

"Pay rise!? I was thinking of laying you off to be honest."
He's put in his place and you've made it clear you're not happy with his performance. If he sticks his bottom lip out and quits it tells you everything you need to know. Job done.

 

[Masood]

Sit him down and tell him exactly what you've written here. He obviously has a far higher opinion of himself than he ought to, and he needs to be told a few home truths.

I'd have more respect for someone if they started the conversation by asking "How do you think I'm progressing? I was wondering if I deserved a bit of a pay rise?" Rather than telling you he thinks he deserves one! Cheeky little so-and-so!

 

[mfgs]

Three months isn't long enough to either be able to be in a position to help you that much or be asking for a pay rise in all honesty.

How old is he, you getting subsidised?

He is 17, I have not yet applied for the grant from the government so at the moment every penny I pay him is costing me money. No he shouldn't be asking for a pay rise until about a year in if at all. I am by no means an overly harsh boss, he gets picked up and dropped to his door 99% of the time, he has had a fair few 2pm finishes and still got a full days money. I just expect good time keeping and a level of respect shown.

Few thoughts come to mind :-
firstly a bollocking for txting at 9.30 pm on a Saturday night, for not having the balls to ask to your face needing his mates to egg him on.

Then tell him to give up the **** and save £10 a day. He probably could earn more now stacking shelves, but in 10 years time he will still be stacking.

I got the text when I was in the pub last night and to be honest I had to hold back telling him not to bother coming in to work on Monday, it really wound me up. He is going to be getting a bollocking for it first thing Monday and his reaction to it will more than likely decide his fate. When ever he is picked up on doing anything wrong he goes on the defensive and will never apologise, so a reaction like that will be the end of him.

I know £3.30 is not a lot of money today, but its a lot more than I was getting 10 years ago and I had to pay to travel to work. it is also significantly over the minimum wage which he was told he would start on, but I decided to go a bit higher in the hope of getting a little more commitment. Not only that but it is an education first and a job second in my eyes.

 

[Hybrid]

Not only that but it is an education first and a job second in my eyes.

Spot on. He's getting paid to learn.

 

[mfgs]

Sit him down and tell him exactly what you've written here. He obviously has a far higher opinion of himself than he ought to, and he needs to be told a few home truths.

I'd have more respect for someone if they started the conversation by asking "How do you think I'm progressing? I was wondering if I deserved a bit of a pay rise?" Rather than telling you he thinks he deserves one! Cheeky little so-and-so!

Yeah he clearly is getting a bit cocky and that is not a trait I like in someone. I couldn't actually believe he said "id like to suggest a raise in wages". I would like to suggest he picks his tools up and does on haha.

 

[rpm]

Once given a bollocking infront of the trainee when the MD saw him sitting on his arse, was told it was up to me to keep him busy not the other way round so I made him find me after completeing every task and he had to tell me if he wanted to go to the shops or there would be hell to pay.
As for the text I would ignore it and when he asks tell him that these things are done face to face and bring up the point of being ready to roll in the mornings.

 

[Millsy 82]

When I used to be an apprentice I used to go in every 6 months and ask for a pay rise. My theory was if you don't ask you don't get, it was always in person though as mobiles weren't big back then, I was also on £44 a week then £55 a week and that was how it went on for 4 years!

Having trained a few apprentices I think 3 months is very early and most of mine were probably only hanging rads tidying up fetching tools and did the odd bit of soldering out of place so they couldn't set fire to the place. They generally don't get any good until 1 year+ (there have been exceptions).

I would say to him no1 he should ask you to your face not a text when he is pi55ed up with his mates. Then no2 give him areas that he needs to improve before he will even be considered for a pay rise ie always be ready for when you get picked up (I had to make my own way to an office) no sloping off for a crafty ciggie, not being asked to do this and that. Also start giving him more to do as you don't learn doing nothing, I remember my first 3-4 months all I did was knock flue holes out and clean up, it was so boring! I hated it and kept slipping off for a ciggie it was only when I started getting more to do that I started picking up and smoking less.

 

[Millsy 82]

Once given a bollocking infront of the trainee when the MD saw him sitting on his arse, was told it was up to me to keep him busy not the other way round/QUOTE]

Absolutely right as well. They need to learn they don't know what to do straight away. They have probably come from mummy doing everything for them and a school telling them what they have to do all the time to working they do need telling what to do.

 

[Rickster123]

I was on 90 quid a week for 4 years. It never went up, I never asked for it to go up either. Mainly because I didn't have the balls to ask for it and it would've been seen as bad manners. There's guys lining up down the street waiting to work for free. I'd remind him just how fortunate he is.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

It's ok to ask for more money in my opinion of:-

He's earning you money

AND

He asks you in person not via a text message in the middle of the night.

 

[Dotty]

When I was an aprentice I was on my way in to work one morning when I saw another young lad from my college. There were 4 guys swapping stuff from one van to another with this young lad looking confused stuck in the middle of it all with his hands in his pockets.

I thought to myself "That will never be me." And it never was. I always found something to do, even if it was sweeping up and tidying up before the job was complete just to keep the workspace tidy.

I got pay rises before I even had to think of asking for them.

 

[oz-plumber]

This kid needs a talking to..

I'm not one for giving a bollocking in front of others, i prefer the assassin approach.

One on one - calm and firm.

Some people need to be pulled down a rung or two and be informed on the principles of reality.
If that doesn't work - let him go.
No point in having someone on that is not going to be any benefit to you.

I would let him know there are plenty of vacancies for courier drivers

 

[Ray Stafford]

You have to decide first what outcome you want.

If you actually already wanted to get rid of him, and this is just the convenient excuse, then be honest with yourself, and with him.

If you think there may be something to be made of the lad, then think about the best way to bring out the good in him. That might be a bollocking, but equally it might be a fatherly chat. Or it might involve a sit-down with him and his parents. Or all three.

Certainly don't stew over it. He's just a youngster being a d1ck - something that every male person on this forum did several dozen times in the their late teens.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Agree with Ray, he's still a puppy, give him a slap and move on.

Do you know/speak to his parents?

 

[chris watkins]

You have to decide first what outcome you want.

If you actually already wanted to get rid of him, and this is just the convenient excuse, then be honest with yourself, and with him.

If you think there may be something to be made of the lad, then think about the best way to bring out the good in him. That might be a bollocking, but equally it might be a fatherly chat. Or it might involve a sit-down with him and his parents. Or all three.

Certainly don't stew over it. He's just a youngster being a d1ck - something that every male person on this forum did several dozen times in the their late teens.

Spot on Ray, he is 17 for god sake, in his eyes 3 months is a very long time & he has indeed learnt such a lot in that time (bet this is his first job, unlike most of us he was not out working at crack of sparrows up chimneys from the age of 12).

He has no idea what so ever just how much he still has to learn or that those thing he has been doing really p1ss you off, so tell him, then give him targets to meet before any rewards are forthcoming and it don't have to be money, how about getting him tools from time to time that way he can be more useful as well?

Both of you have invested a good deal of time & effort in this relationship isn't it worth a go to salvage it ???

 

[mutley racers]

I have had an apprentice for 3 months now. He is doing ok, and just ok. I have put a lot of time in to teaching him etc but at the moment the only real thing he is good for is tidying up and getting the tools. Last night I get a text message at 9.30 which reads "Alright mate have just been thinking, iv been with you a while now and I think I have progressed a lot in that time so id like to suggest a raise in wages please mate. Lemme know what you think"

He is on £3.30 an hour, so above the minimum wage for a first year apprentice, but he certainly doesn't earn me any more than I pay him in a week. To be honest the cheek of asking has really wound me up. He has been far from the model employee to date and I have given him possibly more chances than I should have done. Examples of this are taking breaks for cigarettes when it has been made clear that the only time for smoking is lunch time, after doing any small amount of physical work I have caught him just sitting around having a break or walking off to the shop, not being ready when I pick him up from his house in the mornings. I am now thinking about getting rid of him if this is a sign of things to come. I never once asked for a pay rise while I was an apprentice, I was happy for the opportunity to be taught the trade I wanted to do.

Anyone had a similar experience and how did you deal with it?

No way, I have been telling all my mates and wife how nice it was that you had one and how he did all the tidying up and pipe cutting and lagging and scrubbing pipe clean. Envious I was. Now, I am not so. I did think though that you won generous with his cig breaks☺

 

[plumben]

I have had an apprentice for 3 months now. He is doing ok, and just ok. I have put a lot of time in to teaching him etc but at the moment the only real thing he is good for is tidying up and getting the tools. Last night I get a text message at 9.30 which reads "Alright mate have just been thinking, iv been with you a while now and I think I have progressed a lot in that time so id like to suggest a raise in wages please mate. Lemme know what you think"

He is on £3.30 an hour, so above the minimum wage for a first year apprentice, but he certainly doesn't earn me any more than I pay him in a week. To be honest the cheek of asking has really wound me up. He has been far from the model employee to date and I have given him possibly more chances than I should have done. Examples of this are taking breaks for cigarettes when it has been made clear that the only time for smoking is lunch time, after doing any small amount of physical work I have caught him just sitting around having a break or walking off to the shop, not being ready when I pick him up from his house in the mornings. I am now thinking about getting rid of him if this is a sign of things to come. I never once asked for a pay rise while I was an apprentice, I was happy for the opportunity to be taught the trade I wanted to do.

Anyone had a similar experience and how did you deal with it?

If you don't want him give him the sack
tell him what he needs to know,
Let him know that he's not ready for a pay rise yet,
Give him an alternative, tools they don't have to be the best "bachos" but
Advise that bachos are the better tool.... if you see what I mean I wish idd been told things like that

As for being late, you've got to remember if he's only been working 3 months he's probley used to getting up at 2pm, you could always send a text before you leave then he's got no excuse

 

[Masood]

As for being late, you've got to remember if he's only been working 3 months he's probley used to getting up at 2pm, you could always send a text before you leave then he's got no excuse

NO! Absolutely not! It is NOT for the employer to mother his apprentice. If the boy wants a job, he has to organise and motivate himself to get up, get ready and get out of the door. Unbelievable!

If you worked for a firm and were late in the mornings would you expect an alarm call or a warning? How is that teaching the lad to take responsibility for himself? At 17 he should know how to set an alarm!

 

[kay-jay]

organise a public stoning! that will sort his attitude out. :wazzzup:

 

[Masood]

organise a public stoning! that will sort his attitude out. :wazzzup:

He's probably stoned most days anyway!

 

[plumben]

NO! Absolutely not! It is NOT for the employer to mother his apprentice. If the boy wants a job, he has to organise and motivate himself to get up, get ready and get out of the door. Unbelievable!

If you worked for a firm and were late in the mornings would you expect an alarm call or a warning? How is that teaching the lad to take responsibility for himself? At 17 he should know how to set an alarm!

I'll agree yes theres no excuse to not being up and ready
but whenever I pick someone up it takes me two seconds to let them know I'm on my way
And if they haven't let me know they'll be late by the second beep on the horn I'm gone and they've got no excuse

 

[kay-jay]

Being late is unnacceptable......

Unless im the one thats late in which case its perfectly fine.

 

[Dotty]

I never got a text when I was an apprentice. I never got picked up either.

I had to be at the yard at 7.45 each morning. If I was late. I'd be left behind. And then I'd have to explain to my manager why I was late. And unless it was beyond my control I'd be for the high jump.

Kids these days get life handed to them on a plate. I don't subscribe to that school of thought.

I won't teach a kid unless he shows an interest and is always asking me relevant questions, and then I'll do everything to help them learn. I never give a straight answer either. I guide them into working it out for themselves.

If they're not interested why should I waste my time and effort?

 

[Masood]

Kids these days get life handed to them on a plate. I don't subscribe to that school of thought.

I won't teach a kid unless he shows an interest and is always asking me relevant questions, and then I'll do everything to help them learn. I never give a straight answer either. I guide them into working it out for themselves.

If they're not interested why should I waste my time and effort?

Absolutely. My normal answer to questions, be it from a trainee or my daughter (14) is "Well, what do YOU think?" or "How do YOU think it works?" The difference between them learning by numbers or gaining a real understanding which enables them to figure out future problems.

My missus teaches maths and despairs at new rules which basically mean they only have time and resources to spoon-feed the kids what they need to pass GCSE. We're creating a generation of robots with no ability to analyse and reason.

 

[dom brennan]

I've just finished my level 2 and just started level 3, I'm on £100 per week for around 45-50 hours per week. I've not once complained about my wages once ,I've thought of asking for a pay rise but I've not got the guts. when we are on boiler swaps my job is to drain down, take the old boiler off why my boss is at the merchants getting the new one, then i hang the new one and pipe it up and do the electrics why he's doing the flue and condensate. from the day i stated i put away £15 per week to buy tools. I've just bought a van out of my own money. i use that to do small jobs for him. one thing i do is take home the old boilers and weigh them in we used only give them scrap men anyway i get about £18 per boiler if i strip them down.
By the way I'm 18 and if I'm late i get a warning and if I'm late twice i would probably see the door.

 

[Destroyer2813]

If he's late leave him behind happened to me a couple of times when I first started out when I slepped through the alarm he'll soon work it out when it reflects in his wages

 

[lame plumber]

my last one i had for a while was late up, on the phone and smoking, final straw was when he was away on his phone smoking despite his final warning and I had finished the job, so I went home (3/4 hour drive). His mommy was furious with me as she had to go collect the 18 yr old ****, but I wasnt to worried as he no longer had a job. I never bothered with them again.

 

[turnpin]

I've just finished my level 2 and just started level 3, I'm on £100 per week for around 45-50 hours per week. I've not once complained about my wages once ,I've thought of asking for a pay rise but I've not got the guts. when we are on boiler swaps my job is to drain down, take the old boiler off why my boss is at the merchants getting the new one, then i hang the new one and pipe it up and do the electrics why he's doing the flue and condensate. from the day i stated i put away £15 per week to buy tools. I've just bought a van out of my own money. i use that to do small jobs for him. one thing i do is take home the old boilers and weigh them in we used only give them scrap men anyway i get about £18 per boiler if i strip them down.
By the way I'm 18 and if I'm late i get a warning and if I'm late twice i would probably see the door.

You will go far young fella you seem to have the right idea well done...regards Turnpin :smile5:

 

[Millsy 82]

my last one i had for a while was late up, on the phone and smoking, final straw was when he was away on his phone smoking despite his final warning and I had finished the job, so I went home (3/4 hour drive). His mommy was furious with me as she had to go collect the 18 yr old ****, but I wasnt to worried as he no longer had a job. I never bothered with them again.

Oh the phone! My pet hate! I used to tell them to leave it in the van as it looks terrible. I had 1 lad work with me for a day in an empty house so never told him to leave it in the van and he was on Facebook every 5 minutes! I asked never to have him again otherwise I would of broke him.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Sack him

 

[Paulplumb]

Sack him

Lol the voice of compassion.

For the first year I was on £30 a week then I got a rise to £35 a week the second year. I was told that in the olden days the apprentices family paid the plumber! I have no idea if that was true or not? If you are paying him £3.30p an hour for 40 hours a week you could give him a very generous pay rise twice the rate of inflation of 3% and it would cost you less than a fiver a week extra! Then beast the little scrote :lol:

 

[mfgs]

Thanks lads, lots of useful input into this. To be completely honest, I think my mind will be made up by how he reacts to me picking him up on sending me a text message rather than asking face to face, If he gets all defensive he will be out the door on the spot. Most jobs have a 3-6 month probation period to see if you are cut out for the work and keep the job, not one person I have asked today would have dared ask fro a pay rise after 3 months, and I have talked this over with lots of people. I am really taken aback by the cheek of him asking in this way.

 

[chris watkins]

Lol the voice of compassion.

For the first year I was on £30 a week then I got a rise to £35 a week the second year. I was told that in the olden days the apprentices family paid the plumber! I have no idea if that was true or not? If you are paying him £3.30p an hour for 40 hours a week you could give him a very generous pay rise twice the rate of inflation of 3% and it would cost you less than a fiver a week extra! Then beast the little scrote :lol:

Here you go then, cos when I was a lad…….. of just turned 16 my weeks money as an apprentice plumber at Matthew Hall was £19.50 & "I had to pay mill owner for permission to come to work" oops sorry slipped into Monty python again.

Paul is correct in the ye olden days (only just before I started) you had to pay the master to take you on as an apprentice, your time lasted for seven years before you went in front of the guild of master plumbers & they decided if you were good enough to practise & allowed you in.

How times have changed !!!

One of the plus sides of paying was that the master was then responsible for boarding & feeding you for the seven years, any of you guys fancy looking after a teenage for seven years ? its bad enough when their your own.

 

[Masood]

I've just finished my level 2 and just started level 3, I'm on £100 per week for around 45-50 hours per week. I've not once complained about my wages once ,I've thought of asking for a pay rise but I've not got the guts. when we are on boiler swaps my job is to drain down, take the old boiler off why my boss is at the merchants getting the new one, then i hang the new one and pipe it up and do the electrics why he's doing the flue and condensate. from the day i stated i put away £15 per week to buy tools. I've just bought a van out of my own money. i use that to do small jobs for him. one thing i do is take home the old boilers and weigh them in we used only give them scrap men anyway i get about £18 per boiler if i strip them down.
By the way I'm 18 and if I'm late i get a warning and if I'm late twice i would probably see the door.

You're learning some of the most valuable skills there are - self-discipline, independence, being able to work autonomously, taking responsibility. As Turnpin says, you seem to be taking all the best lessons from that and you seem like you'll do really well. Although if you're doing all that, and are L2 qualified then I think you should politely ask for some feedback on your value to your boss and discuss a bit of a raise..

 

[cr0ft]

Look on the bright side, at least you haven't had an apprentice ask you for a pay rise after 1 week!!!

Every apprentice who joins my business will be on minimum apprentice rate plus 20p per hour for the whole of their first year.

After the first year they have to go on minimum wage (unless they are under 19 in which case they get a bit longer to prove their worth). The government stipulate this and it puts a bit of pressure on apprentices to learn very quickly in the first year. If they can't do small jobs on their own at this point, they aren't worth paying minimum wage as far as my business is concerned. I would then let them go at this point.

Assuming they can be left to do small jobs after the first year, their pay is determined based on what they can earn the business in a day. I allow a 30% profit margin for the business in this, take off employer on-costs and then get what their wage should be from that. This is reviewed annually.

 

[chris watkins]

Look on the bright side, at least you haven't had an apprentice ask you for a pay rise after 1 week!!!

Every apprentice who joins my business will be on minimum apprentice rate plus 20p per hour for the whole of their first year.

After the first year they have to go on minimum wage (unless they are under 19 in which case they get a bit longer to prove their worth). The government stipulate this and it puts a bit of pressure on apprentices to learn very quickly in the first year. If they can't do small jobs on their own at this point, they aren't worth paying minimum wage as far as my business is concerned. I would then let them go at this point.

Assuming they can be left to do small jobs after the first year, their pay is determined based on what they can earn the business in a day. I allow a 30% profit margin for the business in this, take off employer on-costs and then get what their wage should be from that. This is reviewed annually.

So what you are saying cr0ft is that their apprenticeship last for just one year then?

If you want cheap labour just take on a lad don't call it an apprenticeship.

Seen a few lads dumped on a site in there second year to install boilers & pipe work, thats not teaching them a trade, it is exploitation.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

I think no apprentice should be left on their own on a job, when passed level 2 and they are an improver then maybe, for one thing its not what the custards are paying for

 

[fogarty]

Just a few years ago a new starter couldn't get a plumbing job without donating a kidney ,now it's like their doing you a favour. Tell him he can have a *** when you do especially if you don't smoke. If he's not up when you call in the morning ,drive on and don't pay him. With regard to phone I tell my wife not to ring unless someone's died.

 

[mfgs]

Just an update. I went to pick him up this morning ready to have a chat with him about how he is really progressing and not how he thinks he is. Sat outside his house for 8 mins after texting him telling him I was outside ( I also told him yesterday what time I would be picking him up), so I drove off to the job. I got a text 5 minutes later asking where I was haha. My reply was I am at work where you should be, I waited for you and you never showed. I will give him a chance tomorrow to explain himself, but the writing could be on the wall for him. I could not make it any easier for him to get to work picking him up at his front door every day, if you cant be ready for the time I say then you aren't worth me spending any time on.

 

[Dotty]

Tell him you'll lift him at ridiculous o'clock........

 

[Masood]

Just an update. I went to pick him up this morning ready to have a chat with him about how he is really progressing and not how he thinks he is. Sat outside his house for 8 mins after texting him telling him I was outside ( I also told him yesterday what time I would be picking him up), so I drove off to the job. I got a text 5 minutes later asking where I was haha. My reply was I am at work where you should be, I waited for you and you never showed. I will give him a chance tomorrow to explain himself, but the writing could be on the wall for him. I could not make it any easier for him to get to work picking him up at his front door every day, if you cant be ready for the time I say then you aren't worth me spending any time on.

Unbelievable. My local college has had to turn down so many candidates because they couldn't get an apprenticeship, and those who have one don't value it! Sad...

 

[chris watkins]

I blame the parents don't you.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

I blame the parents don't you.

*nods head knowingly*

 

[Ermintrude]

Foot in his arris and then if improvement doesn't last p45. End of

 

[Destroyer2813]

I blame the parents don't you.

To a degree but you teach em all the manners and good intentions under the sun but when they go to school and pick up other kids bad habits some of em forget everything you've taught them and you have to start all.over again it seems sometimes

 

[Dotty]

To a degree but you teach em all the manners and good intentions under the sun but when they go to school and pick up other kids bad habits some of em forget everything you've taught them and you have to start all.over again it seems sometimes

that's no real excuse. I know for a fact we all picked up bad habits at one stage or another as kids, and they were rapidly knocked out of us.

The fault lies with the namby pamby hand wringing apologist society we're in now and the lazy fat arsed baby machines waiting for their five minutes on Jeremy Kyle. The lazy feckless fat spotty pizza faced scuzz ball who believes society should raise their kids!

What is needed is a return to the values of yesteryear when the village bobby would cuff your ear then your mum and dad cuff your other ear when you told them what had happened.

 

[cr0ft]

So what you are saying cr0ft is that their apprenticeship last for just one year then?

I don't think I've said that anywhere at all, I think you've said I've said that 🙂

I don't think paying a very capable apprentice £7.50 per hour in year 2 is exploitation to be honest, neither do I feel sending the same capable apprentice out to do small jobs within his capabilities on his own is. I feel that's building his confidence and (yes, shocking I know) helping the business to grow too which is surely what taking on staff is about.

Would I leave him doing a central heating install? No, of course not, because he's not ready for it. At the moment he helps me out for 2 days a week doing the small jobs knowing I am always on the end of the phone if he is unsure about anything. 2 days a week he works with me on larger projects where I continue to spend time teaching him, answering questions etc. 1 day a week at college as per every other apprentice. Coming up to his mid 20s he should of course have more responsibility in keeping with his life experience and the higher wage he gets paid.

Now would I let my 17 year old apprentice go out on his own next year? Not a chance. He will be with me all the way through his apprenticeship. It's a question of not setting people up to fail. I learned far more by going out on my own and doing small jobs than I ever did watching anyone else.

It's foolish to make blanket statements like 'exploitation' and other things as each apprentice needs to be assessed on a case by case basis. There are many 'fully qualified' plumbers I've seen who I would not have working in my house again, I would happily have this guy working in it.

There would be no point in me sending staff out on jobs before they are ready as it would dent his confidence and harm my reputation.

You can't tell me that no firm sends apprentices out on jobs on their own, it happens regularly around here. No harm in it at all when they are ready and capable in my opinion.

 

[cr0ft]

I think no apprentice should be left on their own on a job, when passed level 2 and they are an improver then maybe, for one thing its not what the custards are paying for

This is the great thing about this forum, we can always agree to disagree. I think the customer is paying to have a job done by someone who knows what they are doing. I place very little emphasis on bits of paper to be honest, much more on what someone can do properly and to a high standard.

I think most customers feel the same, it's just not something that's important to them. No one in 6 years has asked me if I am qualified (or to prove it) before they let me work in their home. I do not have an NVQ to my name, should I not be working in someone's home then?

 

[WaterTight]

my current apprentice is also my girlfriend. anyone else been in that situation?

 

[Millsy 82]

my current apprentice is also my girlfriend. anyone else been in that situation?

You must be mad! I go to work to get away from mine! It's the only time I can drink tea and smoke in peace. Lol.

 

[Rickster123]

my current apprentice is also my girlfriend. anyone else been in that situation?

Takes all the fun out of top heavy customers!

 

[newcastle phill]

my current apprentice is also my girlfriend. anyone else been in that situation?

What......with your girlfriend ????? 🙂

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

This is the great thing about this forum, we can always agree to disagree. I think the customer is paying to have a job done by someone who knows what they are doing. I place very little emphasis on bits of paper to be honest, much more on what someone can do properly and to a high standard.

I think most customers feel the same, it's just not something that's important to them. No one in 6 years has asked me if I am qualified (or to prove it) before they let me work in their home. I do not have an NVQ to my name, should I not be working in someone's home then?

Thats not what I said Croft, is it.

 

[mfgs]

Well he was actually ready this morning so he came to work. We had a chat first thing before we started on site and he was told that he is certainly not due a pay rise and wont be for some time, which he seemed quite shocked about despite me making this clear when taking him on in the first place. It was also pointed out the areas in which he needs to improve. All in all I think he no longer thinks he is at the standard he seemed to believe. He had a bit of a sulk in the morning and didn't really speak much, but perked up this afternoon. I am looking forward to hopefully seeing a change in his attitude to prove himself.

 

[rpm]

Give the donkey a little nibble on a carrot when he does do or say something right just to show your not a mean old git, bit like training a dog if you see what I mean.

 

[mfgs]

Give the donkey a little nibble on a carrot when he does do or say something right just to show your not a mean old git, bit like training a dog if you see what I mean.

I'm not mean and I'm certainly not old haha. Ever since he has started with me, if he has been doing well I have taken him down the café for lunch etc, little things like that.

 

[rpm]

I'm not mean and I'm certainly not old haha. Ever since he has started with me, if he has been doing well I have taken him down the café for lunch etc, little things like that.

Sorry mate, sounds like your well ahead of me. Only thing I buy em is a coffee lol Mind you if your over 35 thats old to him. :tounge_smile:

 

[mfgs]

Sorry mate, sounds like your well ahead of me. Only thing I buy em is a coffee lol Mind you if your over 35 thats old to him. :tounge_smile:

He has always been rewarded and will continue to be if he does well, if anything I may have been too full of praise for him in the past for him to start to think he is better than he is. Well I am still young to him then, I am 27.

 

[cr0ft]

my current apprentice is also my girlfriend. anyone else been in that situation?

No!! Did she become your girlfriend before or after you employed her. And are you old enough to be her dad or not??

Will need to know the answers to these questions before I know how to reply lol.

 

[cr0ft]

Thats not what I said Croft, is it.

Nope, I was being rhetorical. My point I am trying to make though is just that I place very little value on qualifications and much more on what people can do and their work ethic/standards! No offence intended!

 

[chris watkins]

So what you are saying cr0ft is that their apprenticeship last for just one year then?

I don't think I've said that anywhere at all, I think you've said I've said that 🙂

It's foolish to make blanket statements like 'exploitation' and other things as each apprentice needs to be assessed on a case by case basis. There are many 'fully qualified' plumbers I've seen who I would not have working in my house again, I would happily have this guy working in it.
There would be no point in me sending staff out on jobs before they are ready as it would dent his confidence and harm my reputation.

You can't tell me that no firm sends apprentices out on jobs on their own, it happens regularly around here. No harm in it at all when they are ready and capable in my opinion.

You are right cr0ft it was foolish of me & once again it shows me the inherent problems with this type of communication.
As we do, I made some assumptions based on your previous postings which were clearly incorrect.
In my mind a 2nd year apprentice is 17 - 18 years a lot different, as you say, to someone in there mid twenties.
You did suggest that his productivity determining his rate of pay which I would not necessarily agree with having seen a number of firm who clearly do exploit them.

It is clear from your full & well put post in response, that you do not exploit them & train them correctly, including letting them work on there own when ready. (they don't seem to do PJ's like we did, which as you say, is where I learnt the most important lessons in plumbing).

Sorry Cr0ft !!! & thank you for pointing out the error of my ways. Chris

 

[TBServices]

I can't be bothered. I've never had an apprentice who wasn't more hassle than they were worth. And training up the next generation of under cutting kids isn't exactly my priority - I can't imagine I'd have the means to keep a lad on once his wages had to go up.

 

[cr0ft]

You are right cr0ft it was foolish of me & once again it shows me the inherent problems with this type of communication.
As we do, I made some assumptions based on your previous postings which were clearly incorrect.
In my mind a 2nd year apprentice is 17 - 18 years a lot different, as you say, to someone in there mid twenties.
You did suggest that his productivity determining his rate of pay which I would not necessarily agree with having seen a number of firm who clearly do exploit them.

It is clear from your full & well put post in response, that you do not exploit them & train them correctly, including letting them work on there own when ready. (they don't seem to do PJ's like we did, which as you say, is where I learnt the most important lessons in plumbing).

Sorry Cr0ft !!! & thank you for pointing out the error of my ways. Chris

No worries matey! Apology appreciated.

 

[oz-plumber]

I can't be bothered. I've never had an apprentice who wasn't more hassle than they were worth. And training up the next generation of under cutting kids isn't exactly my priority - I can't imagine I'd have the means to keep a lad on once his wages had to go up.

That's a means to an end.

You just have to find the right kid / person.
I've done well out of the last couple of kids I have had.
When they are reliable, good workers they can be of benefit.

The hardest thing is keeping them on track...to many distractions.

Had one that had a mortgage - couldn't keep him away from work.
He used to get upset with me if I turned up late.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Had one that had a mortgage - couldn't keep him away from work.
He used to get upset with me if I turned up late.

Yep - the finest kind of employee - a 28 yr old bloke with a mortgage he can't afford, 2 kids and pregnant wife. 🙂

So long as you keep paying him well, he will work like a duracell bunny.

 

[cdodds2004]

interesting read. im thinking of taking a apprentice on! Not sure what to do now to be honest! I was thinking of going after a mature lad that wants to re-train!

 

[TFGplumbing]

I have had an apprentice for 3 months now. He is doing ok, and just ok. I have put a lot of time in to teaching him etc but at the moment the only real thing he is good for is tidying up and getting the tools. Last night I get a text message at 9.30 which reads "Alright mate have just been thinking, iv been with you a while now and I think I have progressed a lot in that time so id like to suggest a raise in wages please mate. Lemme know what you think"

He is on £3.30 an hour, so above the minimum wage for a first year apprentice, but he certainly doesn't earn me any more than I pay him in a week. To be honest the cheek of asking has really wound me up. He has been far from the model employee to date and I have given him possibly more chances than I should have done. Examples of this are taking breaks for cigarettes when it has been made clear that the only time for smoking is lunch time, after doing any small amount of physical work I have caught him just sitting around having a break or walking off to the shop, not being ready when I pick him up from his house in the mornings. I am now thinking about getting rid of him if this is a sign of things to come. I never once asked for a pay rise while I was an apprentice, I was happy for the opportunity to be taught the trade I wanted to do.

Anyone had a similar experience and how did you deal with it?

****... kids these days... send him up a loft full of rock wool; too saw a cistern in half because it wont fit through the hatch and give him some nice knuckle grazing jobs - he'll probably do one.

When I'am ready to get an apprentice - I'am going to college to hand pick an nice free range, intelligent, grafter!

 

[Toxic Ted]

They're not like bl00dy chickens ........you cant just wander in and pick the one you fancy!

 

[rpm]

They're not like bl00dy chickens ........you cant just wander in and pick the one you fancy!

Shame though,

 

[TFGplumbing]

They're not like bl00dy chickens ........you cant just wander in and pick the one you fancy!

Why not? haha I could spot the dud's straight away. I want bright eyed & bushy tailed! Free range organic

 

[Ray Stafford]

They're not like bl00dy chickens ........you cant just wander in and pick the one you fancy!

I rather suspect that you can.

If you rang your local college and told them that you had a vacancy for an apprentice, they would roll out the red carpet, and line up the "stock" for inspection.

If you are going to put yourself to the trouble of having an apprentice, I reckon its worth putting yourself to the trouble of thinking about how to select them. I hear loads of stories about "I took on my sisters lad as an apprentice, but it didn't work out..." I'm not surprised. If you ran a competitive process to hire an apprentice in a town of middling size, the chances are that you will get 20 candidates better than your nephew.

Hiring is a business process, and should be treated as such. I bet most people put more effort into researching their next core drill than their next apprentice, and then squinny when it doesnt work out!

 

[chris watkins]

interesting read. im thinking of taking a apprentice on! Not sure what to do now to be honest! I was thinking of going after a mature lad that wants to re-train!

Please don't, go for a 18/19 year old.
What are the youngsters suppose to do with their lives until someone like you will give them a start!!!!!

 

[mfgs]

Just thought I would update this. Clearly my little chat with him didn't work. I made it very clear to him every morning I pick him up, he is to be waiting outside for me so I don't have to hang about and wait for him like I have been. The morning after our chat I pull up and he isn't there, his mum came out and apologised saying he had just woken up and basically begged me to give him another chance. So I did, I waited for him and gave him another talking to.

Then on the Thursday he was ready and waiting, good attitude etc. Thought I may have made a breakthrough. Friday comes and we are on site decommissioning and old heating system and rigging up temporary water and toilets etc. He decides to sneak off for a cigarette which he has been told numerous times is not allowed other than at lunch. Then yesterday he wasn't ready and waiting outside, I hung around for 5 mins and drove off. I got a phone call from him with him practically blaming me for not waiting for long enough as he was ready but just didn't see me as apparently he was only opening the curtains once every ten minutes to have a look!!! Safe to say, he no longer has a job and I am actively looking for a new apprentice.

 

[rpm]

There is only so much a man can do and if the kid can`t be on time and follow rules then the Red card it is.

 

[PlumbersMate]

Just thought I would update this. Clearly my little chat with him didn't work. I made it very clear to him every morning I pick him up, he is to be waiting outside for me so I don't have to hang about and wait for him like I have been. The morning after our chat I pull up and he isn't there, his mum came out and apologised saying he had just woken up and basically begged me to give him another chance. So I did, I waited for him and gave him another talking to.

Then on the Thursday he was ready and waiting, good attitude etc. Thought I may have made a breakthrough. Friday comes and we are on site decommissioning and old heating system and rigging up temporary water and toilets etc. He decides to sneak off for a cigarette which he has been told numerous times is not allowed other than at lunch. Then yesterday he wasn't ready and waiting outside, I hung around for 5 mins and drove off. I got a phone call from him with him practically blaming me for not waiting for long enough as he was ready but just didn't see me as apparently he was only opening the curtains once every ten minutes to have a look!!! Safe to say, he no longer has a job and I am actively looking for a new apprentice.

Stinking attitude

 

[brum]

My previous employer took on this apprentice without conferring with me said apprentice stayed in same village as me he was worse than a chocolate fireguard that was the beginning of the end im now self employed..brum

 

[rpm]

My previous employer took on this apprentice without conferring with me said apprentice stayed in same village as me he was worse than a chocolate fireguard that was the beginning of the end im now self employed..brum

I had that done to me once brum, the factory was not easy to get via public transport and my boss took a guy on THEN approached me about giving him a lift in to work saying "You both live in the same town so...." Man I was mad about it and told him so.

 

[Rickster123]

Just thought I would update this. Clearly my little chat with him didn't work. I made it very clear to him every morning I pick him up, he is to be waiting outside for me so I don't have to hang about and wait for him like I have been. The morning after our chat I pull up and he isn't there, his mum came out and apologised saying he had just woken up and basically begged me to give him another chance. So I did, I waited for him and gave him another talking to.

Then on the Thursday he was ready and waiting, good attitude etc. Thought I may have made a breakthrough. Friday comes and we are on site decommissioning and old heating system and rigging up temporary water and toilets etc. He decides to sneak off for a cigarette which he has been told numerous times is not allowed other than at lunch. Then yesterday he wasn't ready and waiting outside, I hung around for 5 mins and drove off. I got a phone call from him with him practically blaming me for not waiting for long enough as he was ready but just didn't see me as apparently he was only opening the curtains once every ten minutes to have a look!!! Safe to say, he no longer has a job and I am actively looking for a new apprentice.

Dont give up on apprentices all together. Some are great, hard working, reliable, decent. It's a shame you've been let down but it's his loss really. Good luck in the search.

 

[mfgs]

Dont give up on apprentices all together. Some are great, hard working, reliable, decent. It's a shame you've been let down but it's his loss really. Good luck in the search.

I am not giving up. I have my local college sending me over the CV's of all the people they have on there books who need an apprenticeship. I will look to interview a few selected ones by the end of the week and will hopefully have one on trial by next week if all goes to plan. Or if any of them seem up to scratch.

 

[tomplumb83]

Most apprentices will learn the job given time. Some will take longer than others. Some will take a lot longer than others.
Providing he turns up on time, does as he's told and pays attention you can't really asks any more.
I started my apprenticeship in about 2000. The council lads were on about £55 pw. I was one of two that were the highest paid, £75 pw.

mfgs - It sounds like you've had a lucky escape with your apprentice.
The bloke who I started work would never have picked me up let alone wait for me.
Plenty looking for work. I don't think any should be asking for a pay rise until they've finished their level 2. Not at £3.30 an hour anyway.
* Top Tip - Don't employ a smoker. Or a thief....

 

[Rickster123]

Most apprentices will learn the job given time. Some will take longer than others. Some will take a lot longer than others.
Providing he turns up on time, does as he's told and pays attention you can't really asks any more.
I started my apprenticeship in about 2000. The council lads were on about £55 pw. I was one of two that were the highest paid, £75 pw.

mfgs - It sounds like you've had a lucky escape with your apprentice.
The bloke who I started work would never have picked me up let alone wait for me.
Plenty looking for work. I don't think any should be asking for a pay rise until they've finished their level 2. Not at £3.30 an hour anyway.
* Top Tip - Don't employ a smoker. Or a thief....

A smoker or a thief?! The two deadly sins!

 

[tomplumb83]

Haha Rights for smokers

 

[tomplumb83]

What 17 yo smokes anyway?!

 

[rpm]

A smoker or a thief?! The two deadly sins!

I`m sure there`s a film title in there somewhere :tounge_smile:

 

[TFGplumbing]

pretty sure smoking is a harmless pastime enjoyed by millions...

 

[Millsy 82]

This time don't pick them up in the mornings make them meet you at your office/home if they are not there by 8 then you will be gone and they will have to make there own way to site. It will give you a bit more extra time in the morning.

As for smoking, I am a smoker and I do smoke during the day but I don't just sit there and smoke I tend to sort things out like the back of the van at the same time, although you'd never notice half the time.

 

[R.Oak]

I dont smoke any more but if i had an apprentice i would probably allow him to smoke but to ask me beforehand. If there is time he can nip out for one, taking rubbish or finished with tools on his way, but if we're busy he can wait and smoke later. Cant get any more fair than that surely?

 

[mfgs]

Well my local college sent me over 6 CV's today so I will be looking over them this evening and arranging some interviews. One of them is a girl, not to sure how I would feel about employing a female apprentice.

 

[Masood]

Well my local college sent me over 6 CV's today so I will be looking over them this evening and arranging some interviews. One of them is a girl, not to sure how I would feel about employing a female apprentice.

Mine is female. There are good and bad aspects to this.

 

[TFGplumbing]

Well my local college sent me over 6 CV's today so I will be looking over them this evening and arranging some interviews. One of them is a girl, not to sure how I would feel about employing a female apprentice.

My opinion on this is that she must really want to be a plumber and might be worth a go.

 

[rpm]

Isn`t there a company somewhere which is all girl / ladies plumbers? Sure I read somewhere that they are mega busy.

 

[Masood]

Isn`t there a company somewhere which is all girl / ladies plumbers? Sure I read somewhere that they are mega busy.

Yep. Called Stopcocks. I hate the idea of women-only or men-only firms.

 

[rpm]

I`ve got a customer who has her sani serviced and cleaned every year but if the company send anyone but me she refuses to let them in. Took 3 years to gain her trust before that hubby had to be there, dunno why as I`ve never asked but guess there is a reason. Reckon more companies should give the girls a start myself.

 

[mfgs]

Mine is female. There are good and bad aspects to this.

How is she finding it? I am just worried the physical aspect of the job may be to hard for an 18 year old girl.

 

[TBServices]

Mine is female. There are good and bad aspects to this.

I can think of one aspect that would be both good and bad at the same time. Potentially lol

 

[tomplumb83]

If you were sleeping with the female apprentice, this would make things easier as she'd never be late for work. Just a thought...

TB - I can think of more than one!