New DIY "Plumber" needs advise for loft water tank supply nut and olive?!?

[Ghostrider17]

Hey guys

I've "repaired" my mums loft water tank from leaking but I'm unsure if I've done it correctly so thought I'd join this great forum and ask some advice from some people much smarter than me.

Basically my Mum was worried that her overflow from the loft kept running water so I went round and had a look thinking it was the Float Valve,turns out I was right as it was trickling and overflowing,it was also the old part 1 type from what I understand. I fitted a new one in my own tank a few months ago so knew what to do.

The tank was filthy inside and also full of rotten wood which was odd. After checking all the nuts I told my mum that it would be fine until the next day when I could pop and get her a new one. When I got back home she phoned me in tears saying the roof was leaking,so I went round and turned her water supply off and drained the tank as I couldn't find the isolation valve.

I then noticed there was a leak in the supply nut on the outside of the tank (on the right of the photo) going into the float valve. I can only guess I loosened it my mistake when I was checking things by hand.

The next day I got the new valve,float and a washer kit just in case. Gave the water tank a good clean,removed all the limescale and fitted the new float valve. Tightened everything up and turned the supply back on. There was still a major leak coming from the supply nut where the pipe goes into it,so the water was turned off again quickly.

I completely removed the back nut to look inside and I couldn't see any kind of washer or olive? I found this odd as I always thought a nut connection needed one? Also my parents have lived there for nearly 40 years and they've never had a tank leak before.

I'm really not sure if I did the right thing here but I found a right sized olive in the washer set and placed it over the pipe under the bolt and reconnected and tightened everything up. Water came back on and everything looked ok. I had a coffee and then went back up to check 20 mins later. There was a slight bit of moisture around the nut where the pipe was connected,probably about a quarter of a drip so I tightened it up more and everything's seemed to be ok since.

I'm going to pop by tomorrow and check things over. I'm just worried I did the wrong thing and things will start leaking again. Obviously being in the loft its hidden from view unless you go up and folks are getting on a bit now.

Could anyone give some advise and tell me if I've done anything wrong so I can put things right?

Thanks loads in advance and sorry for the long winded post,I just wanted to give as much detail as possible.

Just so you guys can see here's a pic of the water tank before I butchered it.

 

[oz-plumber]

Honestly, what do you expect us to say ?....

.....Yes, everything will be ok?

I might sound like a *****, but it's not leaking now - hope it stays that way.

Are you sure you tightened the fitting up enough for the olive to crimp onto the pipe so that the pipe doesn't slip out of the fitting.

Are you sure you haven't over tightened the fitting to damage the olive and / or the pipe?

Some people use paste and or ptfe tape on the olive.
Personal preference of Plumbers what and not to use through experience.
Anyway - we have insurance to cover anomalies - Do you?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Replace the whole valve and tail part and not just the valve part

You will need a 1/2 fibre washer for the connector onto the ball valve tail link below

http://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/fibre-washer-set-330-pcs/21618

 

[Old Account]

Hi and welcome,

as above already said you should change the whole valve but to be honest if i were you i would be also concerned with the debris inside the tank.

You should be looking to get that cleaned out and properly done to regs. Doesnt seem like you havent got a lid or any jacket for the tank.

 

[Ghostrider17]

Honestly, what do you expect us to say ?..

...Yes, everything will be ok?

I might sound like a *****, but it's not leaking now - hope it stays that way.

Are you sure you tightened the fitting up enough for the olive to crimp onto the pipe so that the pipe doesn't slip out of the fitting.

Are you sure you haven't over tightened the fitting to damage the olive and / or the pipe?

Some people use paste and or ptfe tape on the olive.
Personal preference of Plumbers what and not to use through experience.
Anyway - we have insurance to cover anomalies - Do you?

I just wanted to know if I did the right thing or something seriously wrong with putting an olive on when I couldnt see any kind of washer or olive on it already? Didn't expect a "*****" to come and have a go at me.

Obviously I havent got insurance,I just wanted some advise.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I just wanted to know if I did the right thing or something seriously wrong with putting an olive on when I couldnt see any kind of washer or olive on it already? Didn't expect people to come and have a go at me.

Obviously I havent got insurance,I just wanted some advise.

Check my post mate

 

[Ghostrider17]

Replace the whole valve and tail part and not just the valve part

You will need a 1/2 fibre washer for the connector onto the ball valve tail link below

Fibre Washer Set 330 Pcs

Ok,thanks loads for that. So I didn't need to place an olive on the pipe then? I have the 1/2 fibre washer in that washer set I bought. Would I be right to go back and replace the whole valve even though its not leaking anymore then? I'm probably a typical guy and just watched youtube videos where they all said theres normally no need to change the whole tail part.

 

[Ghostrider17]

Hi and welcome,

as above already said you should change the whole valve but to be honest if i were you i would be also concerned with the debris inside the tank.

You should be looking to get that cleaned out and properly done to regs. Doesnt seem like you havent got a lid or any jacket for the tank.

Thanks so much for the response.

I did clean the tank and removed all the debris and the limescale from the bottom of the tank. I only removed the jacket as it was soaked in water so it can dry out. When I go back to check I was going to put the jacket and lid back on.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Ok,thanks loads for that. So I didn't need to place an olive on the pipe then? I have the 1/2 fibre washer in that washer set I bought. Would I be right to go back and replace the whole valve even though its not leaking anymore then? I'm probably a typical guy and just watched youtube videos where they all said theres normally no need to change the whole tail part.

No just a fibre washer but you might of damaged the soldered tap connector (attaches the copper pipe to the ball valve tail with you putting an olive on it

They can sometimes drip where the two faces are different

Hope this makes sense?

 

[Ghostrider17]

No just a fibre washer but you might of damaged the soldered tap connector (attaches the copper pipe to the ball valve tail with you putting an olive on it

They can sometimes drip where the two faces are different

Hope this makes sense?

Yes I think I know what you mean. Oh crap,really not sure what to do now. If I go and remove the pipe where the olive was to put a fibre washer on and its damaged then I've made a bad situation worse. Now things aren't leaking is it best to leave with the olive settled and sealed or start from scratch? I'm really not able to solder a new pipe in if I mess things up.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

You got basic hand tools ?

Cut as close to the old tap connector where the solder is on the copper pipe, file the solder off and install the new valve below

http://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/straight-service-valve-15mm-x-mm/58008

If you don't it could leak later on if you leave it

 

[Ghostrider17]

You got basic hand tools ?

Cut as close to the old tap connector where the solder is on the copper pipe, file the solder off and install the new valve below

Straight Service Valve 15mm x ½

If you don't it could leak later on if you leave it

Yes I got basic tools mate. Thanks so much for that. I'm not sure if the supply pipe is long enough though as it bends just after the soldering?

Really not sure what to do,I may see if my parents can afford to get a proper plumber round and have a look.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Should be just enough upto you tbh just let us know either way please

 

[Ghostrider17]

Should be just enough upto you tbh just let us know either way please

I defo will let you know how it goes. Am I right in thinking that I put an olive and NOT a washer on the end the supply pipe goes into? Sound stupid I know but I want to be 100% sure. Obviously a 1/2 fibre washer goes into the end that connects to the tail part of the valve.

Thanks so much for all the advise,really appreciate it.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

On a compression fitting it goes nut olive valve / fitting

 

[Ghostrider17]

On a compression fitting it goes nut olive valve / fitting

So i thought right then,that's a relief. Thanks again,really do appreciate it. Ill pop to my parents tomorrow and let you know how I get on. Ill see if there's enough pipe first but if I'm unsure Ill be back on here. Thanks so much for being so helpful.

 

[JCplumb]

How is it possible to tighten a tap connector up to a valve with an olive where the fibre washer should be? Surely that's not even possible?
You have 15mm copper pipe going into a solder ring tap connector, that then attaches to your threaded valve shank.
The water tight seal is made using a 1/2'' fibre washer, there is nothing in that picture that I can see where an olive should be used.

 

[Ghostrider17]

How is it possible to tighten a tap connector up to a valve with an olive where the fibre washer should be? Surely that's not even possible?
You have 15mm copper pipe going into a solder ring tap connector, that then attaches to your threaded valve shank.
The water tight seal is made using a 1/2'' fibre washer, there is nothing in that picture that I can see where an olive should be used.

Thanks loads for the input mate. Frank Spencer (Me) must have managed to get an olive mixed up with a fibre washer. I can only guess that the olive is pushing against the old washer which I failed to notice and formed the seal.

I think in the back of mind I was thinking back to when I replaced my washing machine tap and I remember fitting a new olive then. I live and learn but I'm just glad I don't do it for a living 😵

I'm going back tomorrow and think Ill start from scratch and replace the whole tail part of the valve. If I havent damaged the pipe with the olive Ill replace it with a new washer but if not Ill install the service valve like Shaun suggested.

 

[Best]

Some ball valves come with a tail that has a more or less flat face for to suit a flat fibre washer onto the fitting you have.
But some valves tails also come with a tapered more sharp end to them that only strictly speaking suit a brass nut and brass or copper olive. Personally I prefer the nut and olive connection method as it is trouble free, but needs done by somebody competent

 

[Ghostrider17]

Some ball valves come with a tail that has a more or less flat face for to suit a flat fibre washer onto the fitting you have.
But some valves tails also come with a tapered more sharp end to them that only strictly speaking suit a brass nut and brass or copper olive. Personally I prefer the nut and olive connection method as it is trouble free, but needs done by somebody competent

Thanks for that easy explanation,really appreciate it. What a great forum. Ill look tomorrow and see that the valve tail connection is. I'm assuming its the flat one though as I couldn't see an olive on there at all. I think I'm going to do a proper job and replace the whole tail though.

This is the one I got with the float valve so I'm assuming it will be a fibre washer?

 

[Best]

This is the one I got with the float valve so I'm assuming it will be a fibre washer?

View attachment 30757

That looks to have an internal taper which will suit a brass or copper olive. However, I notice there is a fair bit of flat face also, which will probably hit against a flat type washer. Some are more sharper than that tail.
I would say that particular tail in photo is really for a nut and olive connection to do it properly

 

[ShaunCorbs]

i would say either would work and bet you paid a pritty penny for the valve

 

[Ghostrider17]

i would say either would work and bet you paid a pritty penny for the valve

Nah,it was only about £7 from screwfix,unless you're taking the mickey lol.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Nah,it was only about £7 from screwfix,unless you're taking the mickey lol.

thats a good price esp for one with brass nuts normally all plastic these days

 

[Ghostrider17]

That looks to have an internal taper which will suit a brass or copper olive. However, I notice there is a fair bit of flat face also, which will probably hit against a flat type washer. Some are more sharper than that tail.
I would say that particular tail in photo is really for a nut and olive connection to do it properly

Thanks for that,really appreciate it. I've got more olives but I think I'll try the washer for now as from what you said it's a safer bet for someone less experienced like me.

I have 1/2" fibre washers YIF and also 1/2" fibre washers which are labelled for flexi taps but are a fair bit thicker than the one on the left. Is it best to use the thicker ones or does it need to be the YIF ones?

A massive thanks to everyone who's advised me on this. I know it must be annoying to get a complete newbie asking for advise but I really do appreciate it. I just want to do the best job I can so I dont have to worry about my parents having any problems down the line.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

left one

 

[Ghostrider17]

thats a good price esp for one with brass nuts normally all plastic these days

I find Screwfix to be great mate,especially for bits to help out home DIYers.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I find Screwfix to be great mate,especially for bits to help out home DIYers.

ive just had a thought that looks big you sure its a 1/2 thread ? (should be 20mm dia ish)

 

[Ghostrider17]

left one

Thanks again,the left YIF one was the one I was going to use until I saw the thicker ones in the set. I'll let you know how I get on tomorrow. If the olive hasnt damaged the pipe I replace the tail and put the proper washer in but if it has Ill do what you suggested and fit the service valve.

 

[Ghostrider17]

ive just had a thought that looks big you sure its a 1/2 thread ? (should be 20mm dia ish)

Well its the tail that came with the float valve mate. Just checked the washer against it and its an exact fit across the top flat part,does that sound right?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Well its the tail that came with the float valve mate. Just checked the washer against it and its an exact fit across the top flat part,does that sound right?

yep just looks mega big in your pic 😀

 

[Ghostrider17]

yep just looks mega big in your pic 😀

Haha,that would be my rubbish photography skills. Ill let you know tomorrow how I get on.

I'm grabbing the service valve on the way,for the sake of a couple of quid Ill have it with me if the olive has damaged the pipe,just hope that if I need to use it theres enough pipe before the bend to fit it but Ill check before I go cutting. I did fit a new washing machine supply tap a few months ago at my own house which is why I think I got confused with the whole olive/washer thing.

Thanks again,really appreciate it.

 

[Best]

Sorry to say this, as it will sound very negative, but I wouldn't use a tap connector type fitting, to connect to a ballvalve that is designed for a nut and olive. They are one of the most pointless fittings to use on side entry ballvalves. Why a washer seal is deemed satisfactory or necessary there is beyond me.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Sorry to say this, as it will sound very negative, but I wouldn't use a tap connector type fitting, to connect to a ballvalve that is designed for a nut and olive. They are one of the most pointless fittings to use on side entry ballvalves. Why a washer seal is deemed satisfactory or necessary there is beyond me.

Exactly the same with toilet ball/float valves do you use a nut and olive on them doubtful

 

[Best]

Exactly the same with toilet ball/float valves do you use a nut and olive on them doubtful

It is not exactly the same with toilets.
Toilets ball/float valves usually were plastic tailed, so not as ideal for nut and olive connection.
But most toilets are bottom entry ballvalves that more suit a flat seal because of 4 reasons, -
(1) supply pipe has often not enough up and down movement (even though it really ideally should have) for typical 1/2" needed for compression joint.
(2) pipe requires usually installed neatly, so can be better looking with a sharp bend away, rather than just straight up or offset from floor
(3) Many plastic or brass tailed cistern valves are made to suit flat washers.
(4) Plastic tailed valves more easy damaged using a nut and olive joint.

Whereas a side entry ballvalve on a toilet often will have plenty of movement on the pipe and especially on a cold water tank in a loft normally the mains pipe will have lots of movement on the pipe to aid installing or removing the complete valve with tail.
Never seen a properly done compression joint leaking on a tank ballvalve, but have seen lots of fibre washer solder fittings leaking, some very badly and causing water damage. Just another weak link in plumbing with a limited and unknown lifespan.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Not the fluidmasters they can do both

And don't agree with your last part there both the same if done badly but haven't come across one installed correctly leaking

I've even seen tap connectors installed old school style with string never leaked

 

[Best]

Not the fluidmasters they can do both

And don't agree with your last part there both the same if done badly but haven't come across one installed correctly leaking

I've even seen tap connectors installed old school style with string never leaked

Some fibre washers just perish eventually, and really bad leaks occur. I have come across lots because I tend to do a fair bit of maintainence work. Maybe some of the fibre washers weren't good quality. Scary when you see the remains of the fibre washer is just mush. I like the rubber type washers made by Hepworth.
I think if the ballvalve was made for an olive, then the sharp edge against the washer is also a problem.
Yea, I know the Fluidmaster tails are designed to do washer or olive. Good design.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Same do a shed load of maintenance in schools etc

Normally find the nuts arnt tight enough which cause the fibre washer to swell a lot more than designed

 

[Best]

Same do a shed load of maintenance in schools etc

Normally find the nuts arnt tight enough which cause the fibre washer to swell a lot more than designed

I suppose that could be due to plumbers afraid to over tighten and damage the fibre washers.
I am always wary of disturbing fibre washer joints and prefer the strength a compression olive joint gives.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

You would be surprised a fibre washer joint can take more of a shock load than a compression joint (both done correctly)

 

[Best]

You would be surprised a fibre washer joint can take more of a shock load than a compression joint (both done correctly)

I will take your word for it, but won't test that out. 🙂
Twisting a ball valve tail when tightening a new valve onto it is always my fear

 

[oz-plumber]

I just wanted to know if I did the right thing or something seriously wrong with putting an olive on when I couldnt see any kind of washer or olive on it already? Didn't expect a "*****" to come and have a go at me.

Obviously I havent got insurance,I just wanted some advise.

Well - there's always one ( ***** - that is )

I suppose you have kept the forum entertained.
But your still in the same predicament you were when you first posted.
Probably even worse due to some of the information you have acquired.
Fiber washer or olive, fittings required.

FYI- with the fitting you have been supplied I would use and olive.
The internal bore has been tapered to suit an olive.
I wouldn't trust a fiber washer on the flat surface that is remaining on the fitting.

Good luck with amount of pipe available - there's very little room for adjustments.

 

[Ghostrider17]

yep just looks mega big in your pic 😀

Ok,so just got back from my parents house and fitted the new whole tail end of the valve. Luckily the supply pipe wasn't damaged at all from the olive so I decided not to fit the service valve,there seemed just enough pipe to work with but as I'm totally new to this I didn't want to chance it unless I needed to.

I gave the supply pipe a good clean and found and removed the old washer which had nearly wasted away to nothing,which I assume is why it was leaking before. I think the house was built in the 1970's and I don't think my folks haven't had any work done at all to the float valve since so I'm assuming it lasted well?

I compared the old tail thread to the new one and they both have the same semi sharp end which you guys said you can use either fibre washer or olive. So it seems I wasn't wrong to use an olive in the first place? It's hard to see in the picture as the camera flash makes the new one all shiny and the old ones filthy. I decided to go with fibre washer as olive seemed a little too risky for me with having no experience and really didn't want to damage the pipe. Even though that's what I nearly did in the first place.

Fitted the new washer and tightened up and after waiting for two hours with water back on there was no leaks! Not even a tiny bit of moisture. I'll go back in a couple of days to re check and place the insulation and lid back on the tank.

Thanks so much for all your advise Shaun and to everyone else who positively contributed,I really,really appreciate it and at least you live and learn. If there's anything obvious that's wrong in the photo with the fitting I'd be grateful if someone could let me know.

Massive thanks again!!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Looks fine to me and well done

 

[Ghostrider17]

Looks fine to me and well done

Perfect,thanks again Shaun. I'll double check in a couple of days then sort the insulation.

All the best.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

And if you went with the olive method you would need to do away with the tap connector (loose nut) and just use stnd 15mm pipe

 

[Ghostrider17]

And if you went with the olive method you would need to do away with the tap connector (loose nut) and just use stnd 15mm pipe

Ah right,I understand now. So I was still wrong to try and fit it,haha. Least I know and now I've learnt something from the pros. Thanks again for advising me and explaining,really appreciate it.

 

[deg]

🙂 I love a happy ending.

 

[JCplumb]

So it seems I wasn't wrong to use an olive in the first place?

Well done, looks a good job 🙂
Yes, you were completely wrong to use an olive in a tap connector, olives go round 15mm pipe and definitely don't bridge the gap you'd have between the shank and tap connector. There's only a few mm of copper past the shoulder in a tap connector and I have no idea if it's 15mm, you did fantastically to get any kind of seal using an olive there. I tip my hat in your general direction 😀

 

[Ghostrider17]

Well done, looks a good job 🙂
Yes, you were completely wrong to use an olive in a tap connector, olives go round 15mm pipe and definitely don't bridge the gap you'd have between the shank and tap connector. There's only a few mm of copper past the shoulder in a tap connector and I have no idea if it's 15mm, you did fantastically to get any kind of seal using an olive there. I tip my hat in your general direction 😀

Thanks for explaining that for me. Think all the talk about olive and washers both being ok on the tail end of the valve confused the s*** out of me lol. I understand now that olives only work with the compression type nut thingys. The olive was just resting on the pipe like a loose wedding ring when I took the bolt off,least it didn't damage it. It must have been what was left of the old fibre washer giving a seal but not a very good one as it had dripped a fair bit since I last went.

It's all experience at least. Thinking about it I'm an HGV driver and I didn't know sod all about that until I did the courses and tests 2 years ago,so I don't feel too much of a tit making a massive stupid mistake like that on my first go.

Anyway its all done now and I'll sleep soundly tonight. Cheers guys,what a great forum.

 

[Ric2013]

olives only work with the compression type nut thingys

Exactly, just as tap connector washers only work with tap type connector thingies.

 

[Chuck]

Anyway its all done now and I'll sleep soundly tonight. Cheers guys,what a great forum.

One last thing...

I haven't read all 50 posts so this may have been dealt with already but you mentioned rotten wood in the tank. That was probably the remains of a lid that went on the tank. The tank needs to have a proper lid on it and to be insulated before the job is finished.

You can buy tank lids in standard sizes from plumbers merchants. There are places that will make custom sizes.

 

[Ghostrider17]

One last thing...

I haven't read all 50 posts so this may have been dealt with already but you mentioned rotten wood in the tank. That was probably the remains of a lid that went on the tank. The tank needs to have a proper lid on it and to be insulated before the job is finished.

You can buy tank lids in standard sizes from plumbers merchants. There are places that will make custom sizes.

Cheers for that. I've cleaned the tank out and Ill get my folks to buy a proper lid from wickes or another supplier. Thanks for that!

 

[JayThePipe]

You either need to remove the "Tap Connector completely and extend the 15mm pipe up an connect with a simple 15mm nut and olive - or get a 1/2" fibre washer to put on the "tap connector"