A simple underfloor heating layout system? Advise please!

[micketherton]

oh dear

Many thanks for your informed opinion

Can you answer me this though. As every other response is also so full of wisdom, but the question is still not answered !

Is there enough water pressure, either within the combi pump system (or using mains pressure) to purge any possible future air build up in the upper floor loops, down the the ground floor maifold AAV. Or do I need to add additional air bleed points on the high points on each of the upper loops . (I'd rather not do this if possible, as it would be difficult aesethitically to put in place in the rooms).

As said mant times in my previous replies, I can easily retro fit a conventianal manifold system if my plan doesn't work out. But it would be very difficult to add air bleed valves to the upper floor loops under the T&G engineered oak floor if required!

So I need to know now if I will be able to get rid of any air in those upper loops by isolating at the manifolds and purging each loop with either the boiler heating water pressure, or even using a mains feed into the system?

Many thanks

Mick

 

[Gray0689]

No you don't need aav if done properly but as yours is an unorthodox way to do things then non of us can answer that question but I see you have what you think is an airlock from previous post
If itis airlocked mains pressure will get rid of it
But as I said the pipes should of been purged of air and water lett in pipes under high pressure till the flooring ie screed laid
You could have a crushed pipe or a kink
Love to see a drawing of how you have done this (job)
Where the cuircits are running

 

[micketherton]

Many thanks for this information!

I do not have any airlocks at the moment, as the system is un-connected and un- pressurised. I don't imagine that 30mm of sharp sand gently screeded over the plastic pipe would crush it, so I didn't screed with pipes under pressure. There are no joins inder the screed, so what could go wrong? It's not a biulding site, with steel toe-capped chippies clambering all over it!

The upper floor are clipped to the side of the joists with aluminium spreader plates wrapped around them made from printers litho plates! It works I've experienced it!

PIPE LAYOUT
There are 2nos. conventianal vertical rads to serve existing conventional concrete floored front room (13m2). This room is open planned to a rear UFH dining room (13m2)
The whole ground floor has three 15mm loops in 50mm screed with slate tiles at 250mm centres serving this diningroom,and kitchen/bathroon/hall (30m2 total UFH ground Floor area)

The 1st floor has 2 bedrooms rooms, each with a loop (300mm spacing) running between joists, serving the two rooms and corridor. It will be boarded in 20mm Engineered Oak T&G

The second Floor is one large bedoom (25m2) laid out as 1st floor on two loops (80m run length each)

All manifolds are located on ground floor in centre of building under stairs

A combi-boiler (5m away from manifold) will first directly supply the two ground floor rads then return into 4 way manifold to supply 2 upper wooden floors. Then that return manifold will run the 3 way concrete loop supply manifold at the lowest temperature; and then via a return manifold to the boiler.

The biulding is very well insulated floor, walls ceiling, and the room heating will be controlled by the boiler heatring output temp and combinations on 15 minute intervals on the timers.

In the past we usually have had our heating on constant low from October to April anyway; and none of our TRVs, or room thermostats have ever worked, so I have always controlled the heating only from the boiler controls quite satisfactory. yes I know it is against regulations!

If my experiment does not work out, I can alway fit TRVs in-line in some of the bedroom loops and re-gig the manifold layout in the proper manner as everyone suggests.

What I needed to know, and what you have kindly answered me, is if I needed to put AAVs on the above the manifold height loops.

Any other problems I can easily rectify at the manifold.

Manny many thanks for you interest in the project and I will post you the outcome when it is up and not running!!!

Any suggestions still welcome too!

regards Mick

 

[Bartdude]

You have to have room thermostats,it will not work properly without them.You have to have mixing valves to control the temperature to the loops from a boiler. I know it's not what you want to hear but I think you should seek an expert opinion before floors are finished,planning is everything with UFH and it's difficult to fix later on. You should have tested the pipework before you screeded too,I've had pinholes in pipe before,it's unusual but it does happen.

What pipe have you used?

 

[Gray0689]

I'm sorry but I think what you are planning is a joke

 

[Dotty]

Mick.

Word of advice cocker.

STOP! NOW!

You have had many replies telling you what you're attempting is not only not going to work, but also in contravention of current regulations and that it will all cost you dearly in the long run.

The reason you've not had the answers you think you're looking for is because you need to walk before you can run.

We all speak from years of training and experience in our chosen field, it's not because we won't help but rather recognition of the fact you're in way over your head here my friend.

Please call a local company in. Yes, it will cost.

But how much is that worth against peace of mind of a job done properly.

And Gray was actually restrained there then.

 

[Gray0689]

Croppie I think you know me too well lol

 

[PlumbingSucks]

You should have a secondary pump for the UFH and if using a combi you need to check MI's that you can have a secondary pump. So you're retro fitting of mani and pump idea if it doesn't work properly (which it won't) will go out the window if you can't have one on your particular boiler. Just do it properly INHO or not at all.

 

[Howsie]

It's only hot water. It's only gas....

 

[dontknowitall]

Why don't you install electric? Piece of cake in comparison ...

 

[smillsey]

mick it takes some going to annoy the chaps on here,

its not like other forums as i have said in the past. Take a hint and call in some underfloor guys, of which I am not.

 

[ecowarm]

You should have a secondary pump for the UFH and if using a combi you need to check MI's that you can have a secondary pump. So you're retro fitting of mani and pump idea if it doesn't work properly (which it won't) will go out the window if you can't have one on your particular boiler. Just do it properly INHO or not at all.

If you fit a low loss header you can have a primary and secondary pump (or multiple pumps) and they will work properly with any boiler if designed correctly, but its not a diy job, and neither is underfloor in my opinion

 

[GQuigley67]

alot of guys don't even do underfloor heating, it seems to be a bit of a specialist job...so I would advise you to listen to these guys and get someone in to do it properly

Just because it may look simple doesn't mean that it is considering you have missed out the most important parts of the system then you clearly don't understand it so listen to what people are saying and get a professional in

 

[unguided1]

Many thanks for your informed opinion

Can you answer me this though. As every other response is also so full of wisdom, but the question is still not answered !

Is there enough water pressure, either within the combi pump system (or using mains pressure) to purge any possible future air build up in the upper floor loops, down the the ground floor maifold AAV. Or do I need to add additional air bleed points on the high points on each of the upper loops . (I'd rather not do this if possible, as it would be difficult aesethitically to put in place in the rooms).

As said mant times in my previous replies, I can easily retro fit a conventianal manifold system if my plan doesn't work out. But it would be very difficult to add air bleed valves to the upper floor loops under the T&G engineered oak floor if required!

So I need to know now if I will be able to get rid of any air in those upper loops by isolating at the manifolds and purging each loop with either the boiler heating water pressure, or even using a mains feed into the system?

Many thanks

Mick

the reason for my Oh Dear is the fact that every person that has answered you is giving you extremely good free advice after years of experiance, that fact that you are refusing to acknowledge that what they are saying means that there is no point in answering the question, because you will keep asking for opinions until you get the answer you want.
So might I suggest that before you go any further with your install and waste any more of your own time and money you contact any number of underfloor manufacturers, who usually run courses on how to install there products and go and ask them the same questions, you will then find out why the guys here who are trying to assist you are getting exasperated

 

[obseen16]

Ive just read your post good sir. i do underfloor heating installations so i know a bit bout them. in answer to your questions on the first post:
Q1 Answer - Thats the least of your worries
Q2 Answer - Thats the least of your worries
Q3 Answer - Thats the least of your worries
Q4 Answer - Is it workable - in a word NO! and "what else should you consider" - Get someone in who knows what they are talking about because your idea isnt going to work.

sorry to burst your bubble but one day youll sell that house along with all the problems your about to put into it.

have a nice day.

 

[obseen16]

Many thanks for this information!

I do not have any airlocks at the moment, as the system is un-connected and un- pressurised. I don't imagine that 30mm of sharp sand gently screeded over the plastic pipe would crush it, so I didn't screed with pipes under pressure.

yes I know it is against regulations!

Any other problems I can easily rectify at the manifold.

Manny many thanks for you interest in the project and I will post you the outcome when it is up and not running!!!

regards Mick

Paragraph 1) that was your first BIG mistake. always screed when pipes are under pressure (the pressure should be pumped up to about 7 bar whilst screeding is setting depending on what underfloor product your using

Paragraph 2) You know its against regs yet your still ignoring the fact?

Paragraph 3) i doubt it now.

Paragraph 4) so you think its not going to be running? well so do we so well see you back here in a week or so? well be waiting 🙄😉😛

 

[GQuigley67]

i forsee cracked floors due to expansion !

 

[obseen16]

i forsee cracked floors due to expansion !

I Guarantee Cracked floors lol. that stuff is science 101. materials that rise in temperature do what??? oh yes they EXPAND

Materials like brick, stone, cement, SCREED are considered.......... Stretchy? I think not. LOL

 

[Dannypipe]

Well he's been warned. What more can you do?

I was called to a property years ago, the customer said it's too hot. I arrive and you could have cooked an egg on the marble floor tiles. The system had several problems (installation problems) and they were lucky the floor didn't crack. The mixing valve was installed but set way too high...anyway I digress. This was a system fitted by an DIYer, who wanted to save money on his kitchen extension and figured if he just ran the manifold from his heating system everything would be ok. Yes he had a mixing valve, but the system had not been commisioned or wired correctly.

They were lucky not to damage their floor. You might not be so lucky, so get some professional advise...yes you will probably have to pay some £££'s for it, but somethings are worth paying for.

 

[REDSAW]

THANKS FOR KEEPING IT PROFESIONAL LADS,🙄🙄🙂