Condensate - Plastic tray, normal practice?

[eleguj]

I recently had a new boiler fitted into my flat and have some concerns about the solution provided for condensate.

When the job was first scoped out I was told that a pipe would be run outside to deal with the condensate, which would be a challenge because of the property but doable.

I stuck with the condensing water boiler because it was going to be a huge hassle to change to combi in my property, which was confirmed by all of the installation companies that gave me a quote. Didn't seem like any real reason to change either, as long as everything worked and my house had a working heating system!

Anyway, the guys I arranged to do the job came out and although there was a couple of visits required to get things working they got everything fitted and the boiler was working perfectly. I noticed there were no pipes going outside, so I did ask what happened to them. I was told at this point that they'd found an alternative solution that meant they didn't need to. I probably should have asked more questions, however I know nothing about boilers so, possibly naively, just accepted what I was told.

However, after a couple of days the system started making a dreadful sound, right underneath the boiler itself, and it just wouldn't stop. I had a look at where the sound was coming from and it was a small contraption inside a plastic box which was filled with water. I took a video and messaged the installer, who said that I just had to remove the plastic box and empty the water. So I did this, but a few days later it just filled up again and the same sound returned. I was then told that I would have to keep changing the box when it fills up with water. At this point I was a bit miffed. Was this normal? I had to yank the contraption thingy (I don't know what it is, you might have guessed) out of the plastic box, pulling some pipes out as well, with condensate dripping on the floor in the process, and take the plastic box and pour the water down the toilet. I'd never heard of anything like it.

Fast forward about 6 weeks and I'm going through this process every 2 days or so, sometimes daily if we are home and have the heating on a lot. I have contacted the fitting company and they have said they'll book someone to come and provide an alternative solution, but that they informed me that there isn't really a viable alternative that follows proper procedure.

My concern here is I feel like I shouldn't be changing condensate manually every couple of days and it just seems like a ludicrous process and I can't quite believe that it was ever fitted this way, without even notifying me at the time that this would be the case. The guys were really helpful and had to deal with a lot of obstacles when fitting the new boiler, which I really appreciated and I feel slightly guilty about raising concerns on a forum. But the honest truth is I know very little about boilers and I just wanted to check if I'm being unreasonable. Maybe it's a normal solution to have a plastic box that the condensate fills up into and then needs changed?

So at this point I'm just looking for some feedback on my situation and whether it all sounds standard or not. As I mentioned, the guys I got in were really helpful on the whole and to be fair they have said they'll come out at some point to look at changing the current set up when it comes to condensate. I'm just a little concerned about what's in place and having spent £2,500 on a new boiler I'd like to know it's all been fitted properly!

 

[oz-plumber]

Obviously something wrong.
Take some pics and find out where the condensate drain runs to.

You shouldn't leave an open condensate drain inside your house.

 

[Scott_D]

Is it a condensate pump?

 

[Tim Watts]

No, you should not have to empty a condensate collector. I too am wondering if it's a pump to get the condensate to a higher drain somewhere else - that could explain the noise. But it should be automatic.

On an aside, personally I think you are better off not running it outside as there are no end of problems each winter with such drains freezing, though some (many?) modern boilers to have siphonic emptying to mitigate that.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Any pics ?

 

[gmartine]

Not sure if the regs have changed but the the new guidlines for external condensate are to use 30mm ID (before going through wall) and insulate.

 

[snowhead]

Does it look something like this or is it just a plain box;

https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/grundfos-conlift-1-ls-condensate-pump/4895f?_requestid=183633

And have you had any Registration paperwork through for the boiler?

 

[Rob Foster]

I recently had a new boiler fitted into my flat and have some concerns about the solution provided for condensate.

When the job was first scoped out I was told that a pipe would be run outside to deal with the condensate, which would be a challenge because of the property but doable.

I stuck with the condensing water boiler because it was going to be a huge hassle to change to combi in my property, which was confirmed by all of the installation companies that gave me a quote. Didn't seem like any real reason to change either, as long as everything worked and my house had a working heating system!

Anyway, the guys I arranged to do the job came out and although there was a couple of visits required to get things working they got everything fitted and the boiler was working perfectly. I noticed there were no pipes going outside, so I did ask what happened to them. I was told at this point that they'd found an alternative solution that meant they didn't need to. I probably should have asked more questions, however I know nothing about boilers so, possibly naively, just accepted what I was told.

However, after a couple of days the system started making a dreadful sound, right underneath the boiler itself, and it just wouldn't stop. I had a look at where the sound was coming from and it was a small contraption inside a plastic box which was filled with water. I took a video and messaged the installer, who said that I just had to remove the plastic box and empty the water. So I did this, but a few days later it just filled up again and the same sound returned. I was then told that I would have to keep changing the box when it fills up with water. At this point I was a bit miffed. Was this normal? I had to yank the contraption thingy (I don't know what it is, you might have guessed) out of the plastic box, pulling some pipes out as well, with condensate dripping on the floor in the process, and take the plastic box and pour the water down the toilet. I'd never heard of anything like it.

Fast forward about 6 weeks and I'm going through this process every 2 days or so, sometimes daily if we are home and have the heating on a lot. I have contacted the fitting company and they have said they'll book someone to come and provide an alternative solution, but that they informed me that there isn't really a viable alternative that follows proper procedure.

My concern here is I feel like I shouldn't be changing condensate manually every couple of days and it just seems like a ludicrous process and I can't quite believe that it was ever fitted this way, without even notifying me at the time that this would be the case. The guys were really helpful and had to deal with a lot of obstacles when fitting the new boiler, which I really appreciated and I feel slightly guilty about raising concerns on a forum. But the honest truth is I know very little about boilers and I just wanted to check if I'm being unreasonable. Maybe it's a normal solution to have a plastic box that the condensate fills up into and then needs changed?

So at this point I'm just looking for some feedback on my situation and whether it all sounds standard or not. As I mentioned, the guys I got in were really helpful on the whole and to be fair they have said they'll come out at some point to look at changing the current set up when it comes to condensate. I'm just a little concerned about what's in place and having spent £2,500 on a new boiler I'd like to know it's all been fitted properly!

This is quite simply not right op has paid for a proper job, whatever the explanation it does not work and is still within guarantee and subject to gas and building regulations let alone consumer rights . Very poor Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[eleguj]

Does it look something like this or is it just a plain box;

https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/grundfos-conlift-1-ls-condensate-pump/4895f?_requestid=183633

And have you had any Registration paperwork through for the boiler?

Yes, this is exactly what it is!

The bottom part fills with the excess water and when it gets to the top, every 1-2 days, it starts screaming/whirring loudly and I have to empty before it stops and the system returns to normal.

 

[Scott_D]

Yes, this is exactly what it is!

The bottom part fills with the excess water and when it gets to the top, every 1-2 days, it starts screaming/whirring loudly and I have to empty before it stops and the system returns to normal.

It's trying to pump the water away
It should stop after a few seconds
Where does the clear hose pipe coming from it go?

 

[eleguj]

It's trying to pump the water away
It should stop after a few seconds
Where does the clear hose pipe coming from it go?

It definitely doesn't stop that quickly, first time it happened it went on for at least 20 minutes - even when I shut the whole system down it was still going crazy. When I disconnect the top part to empty the tray it also sometimes sounds like it's going to explode, but it's a bit fiddly as I have to take that out, as well as the pipes, and squeeze it out of the corner of the cupboard that it's in without spilling the water everywhere.

I'm not at home just now so can't remember exactly where each pipe goes, but I know there is a clear one that comes from the water tank itself, under the floor and goes into the pump directly and then there is also a more solid pipe that comes in from the boiler itself, above the pump. I can confirm more precise details later.

The water certainly doesn't seem to go anywhere though, and when I contacted the fitter he confirmed I'd have to empty the tray/pump when it fills up.

 

[Rob Foster]

It definitely doesn't stop that quickly, first time it happened it went on for at least 20 minutes - even when I shut the whole system down it was still going crazy. When I disconnect the top part to empty the tray it also sometimes sounds like it's going to explode, but it's a bit fiddly as I have to take that out, as well as the pipes, and squeeze it out of the corner of the cupboard that it's in without spilling the water everywhere.

I'm not at home just now so can't remember exactly where each pipe goes, but I know there is a clear one that comes from the water tank itself, under the floor and goes into the pump directly and then there is also a more solid pipe that comes in from the boiler itself, above the pump. I can confirm more precise details later.

The water certainly doesn't seem to go anywhere though, and when I contacted the fitter he confirmed I'd have to empty the tray/pump when it fills up.

That is plain stupid, a 30kw condensing boiler running in cold weather will produce up to 2 litres of condensate every 24 hours so the boiler has to be nannied ....I would state that the installation is not fit for purpose. What boiler is it ? What are the recommended condensate arrangements, unless this boiler comes from noddyland this set up will not be in the fitting orvopetating instructions ...get installer back, report the outfit if no dice, and get it sorted by a professional installer Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[Gasmk1]

i would say that there is a kink in the clear palstic somewhere they need to come back and trace it to make sure it empties they normally empty pretty quick probably 5 to 10 seconds

 

[Rob Foster]

It definitely doesn't stop that quickly, first time it happened it went on for at least 20 minutes - even when I shut the whole system down it was still going crazy. When I disconnect the top part to empty the tray it also sometimes sounds like it's going to explode, but it's a bit fiddly as I have to take that out, as well as the pipes, and squeeze it out of the corner of the cupboard that it's in without spilling the water everywhere.

I'm not at home just now so can't remember exactly where each pipe goes, but I know there is a clear one that comes from the water tank itself, under the floor and goes into the pump directly and then there is also a more solid pipe that comes in from the boiler itself, above the pump. I can confirm more precise details later.

The water certainly doesn't seem to go anywhere though, and when I contacted the fitter he confirmed I'd have to empty the tray/pump when it fills up.

You might have to empty the tray IF IT FILLS up ie if the outside pipe freezes up on odd very cold nights NOT every day
1 or 2 x you are being suckered Chking

 

[sammathias]

My bet is what ever wastepipe it's bossed into hasn't had a hole cut into it for the water to discharge...that is if the pumps been wired up and the water not just backing up into the burner causing the noise.

 

[rpm]

Clear plastic pipe maybe 8-10mm is outlet from pump so should go somewhere!
Should go up whilst pipe is close to pump and shouldn't go under floor as I believe you said, pump has a maximum lift capacity.

 

[rpm]

My bet is what ever wastepipe it's bossed into hasn't had a hole cut into it for the water to discharge...that is if the pumps been wired up and the water not just backing up into the burner causing the noise.

Sounds as if it is wired but incorrectly.

 

[Scott_D]

Pictures needed

 

[Rob Foster]

It’s a new installation, it does not work properly no one can touch it until installer fixes it or goes off down the road. Op must get them back to rectify directly . Chking

 

[eleguj]

As requested, here are some photos of the setup.

So, first image shows the pump - with the plastic part that I have to empty every couple of days.

Second image shows where the plastic pipe goes under the floor, which then goes all the way to the water tank itself - I've shown where it comes back up in picture 4.

Picture 3 is just the boiler itself.

There isn't anything that leads outside in terms of the pipes, as mentioned before the harder white one goes up from the pump and into the boiler and the clear one leads back to the water tank.

 

[Scott_D]

Is the clear hose squashed behind the pipe in picture 2?
We can help you out on here but you need to get the installer back as there is something not right with the condensate pump

 

[snowhead]

Picture 2 the clear , pump discharge pipe, is squashed and is restricting the flow
It needs fixing in brackets otherwise it'll get damaged and start leaking.
For a temp fix try jamming some cardboard behind the vertical pipe to wided the gap and ease the clear pipe.

That pump can move 500ltrs per hr, a few drops of condensate shouldn't be a problem;
Altech Condensate Pump - Pumps

There should be a copper pipe from the boiler, Pressure relief discharge, that goes outside maybe, from the boiler?

 

[Rob Foster]

As requested, here are some photos of the setup.

So, first image shows the pump - with the plastic part that I have to empty every couple of days.

Second image shows where the plastic pipe goes under the floor, which then goes all the way to the water tank itself - I've shown where it comes back up in picture 4.

Picture 3 is just the boiler itself.

There isn't anything that leads outside in terms of the pipes, as mentioned before the harder white one goes up from the pump and into the boiler and the clear one leads back to the water tank.

View attachment 35572

View attachment 35573

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What a dreadfull installation, using home brew plastic tube with no clips and bodged up , a 5 year old could do better . How the hell did you decide to pay them !....chocklate money. Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[Scott_D]

What a dreadfull installation, using home brew plastic tube with no clips and bodged up , a 5 year old could do better . How the hell did you decide to pay them !..chocklate money. Rob Foster aka centralheatking

The clear hose come with the pump

 

[Rob Foster]

The clear hose come with the pump

Well done NOT ...poofix

 

[sammathias]

Thank me again

 

[eleguj]

Is the clear hose squashed behind the pipe in picture 2?
We can help you out on here but you need to get the installer back as there is something not right with the condensate pump

I've edged the clear hose up and around the pipe, so it's not squashed anymore.

Should this make some difference?

 

[fixitflav]

The installation looks poor, but in principle it should work. Presumably your last pic shows where it's bossed into a sink or similar drain. Maybe matthias's #15 is right, no hole has been cut in the pipe. If so, easy enough to correct. If the pump is wired correctly and the hose isn't kinked, I don't see a problem. Get them back to sort it!

 

[rpm]

Only have to see the different water levels in the hose to see a problem, might even be the only problem!
Is there a joint in the hose or is it lens/ light trickery?

Op, don't suppose they left the installation guide behind did they?

 

[Ben-gee]

Can it be arranged so that the clear hose goes vertically up and then flows to a drain point under gravity? I always think these work better like that, lift first. A bit like saniflo - ask RPM!

 

[eleguj]

Having moved the host so it wasn't kinked, there has been little change in the issues unfortunately.

The pump still fills up within about 48 hours and has to be emptied as it starts whirring out loudly and not working properly.

I've not heard back from the installers, I do feel they are stalling quite a bit now - I've been asking them to come out for a number of weeks now.

I asked what the alternative is to having to keep changing the pump and I've been told all they can do is put the condensate into the stack outside, but they aren't supposed to do that. Surely my only 2 options can't be to change water from the pump every 2 days forevermore or to improperly have it going into the stack outside...?

 

[rpm]

Doesn't sound like the installers will be back tbh. Time to take matters into your own hands so check out some of the suggestions given earlier or start by disconnecting the hose from the boss and running it in to a bucket to see if the pump is even discharging.

 

[fixitflav]

Having moved the host so it wasn't kinked, there has been little change in the issues unfortunately.

The pump still fills up within about 48 hours and has to be emptied as it starts whirring out loudly and not working properly.

I've not heard back from the installers, I do feel they are stalling quite a bit now - I've been asking them to come out for a number of weeks now.

I asked what the alternative is to having to keep changing the pump and I've been told all they can do is put the condensate into the stack outside, but they aren't supposed to do that. Surely my only 2 options can't be to change water from the pump every 2 days forevermore or to improperly have it going into the stack outside...?

Sounds like the pump isn't working. It should be possible to fix it. What type is it - diaphragm, centrifugal, peristaltic or what?

 

[Rob Foster]

Why is there a pump anyway, is the boiler in a basement ? Centralheatking

 

[fixitflav]

Why is there a pump anyway, is the boiler in a basement ? Centralheatking

Without trawling through all the posts again, I assume it's because the condensate outlet on the boiler is below the lowest convenient drain point.
Also noticed OP had been thinking of getting a combi but decided against. The condensate drain issue would be the same with that.

 

[rpm]

Sounds like the pump isn't working. It should be possible to fix it. What type is it - diaphragm, centrifugal, peristaltic or what?

Why is there a pump anyway, is the boiler in a basement ? Centralheatking

Centrifugal pump and doubt it is in a basement as OP said flat with limited room to run pipes that said I still stand by "Incorrectly installed".

 

[Stigster]

Centrifugal pump and doubt it is in a basement as OP said flat with limited room to run pipes that said I still stand by "Incorrectly installed".

That said, this system should still be totally workable and the pump should run and do its job properly once the issue is found and corrected.

 

[rpm]

The Grundfos and the Saniflo version of these little pumps can be wired in such a way that if the pump fails then it cuts the boiler hence I asked about the installation manual being left on site.

 

[rpm]

That said, this system should still be totally workable and the pump should run and do its job properly once the issue is found and corrected.

Agree unless the poor little thing is now buggered by pumping against a closed head.

 

[fixitflav]

Agree unless the poor little thing is now buggered by pumping against a closed head.

Could be, but most centrifs draw less power at closed valve than at duty point.
Time the OP took it to bits and investigated. We've done all we can IMO.

 

[rpm]

Could be, but most centrifs draw less power at closed valve than at duty point.
Time the OP took it to bits and investigated. We've done all we can IMO.

Wasn't thinking of motor windings damage more of bearing damage and OP hasn't reported back on other findings so bit early to start dismantling it.

 

[Allgoode]

I would bet that your boiler benchmark form/certificate has not been filled in with the installer details.

If it has contact gas safe & request an inspection as you have no way of knowing if it has been installed correctly without an independent inspection.

Sounds like your installers may not be all they seem.

I would of been straight around to correct but certainly would not have installed like that as it looks a bit lashed up.

Hope you get sorted,

Andy (Allgoode)

 

[fixitflav]

Wasn't thinking of motor windings damage more of bearing damage and OP hasn't reported back on other findings so bit early to start dismantling it.

It's never too early to start dismantling! 🙂
How will he diagnose the problem otherwise?

 

[rpm]

It's never too early to start dismantling! 🙂
How will he diagnose the problem otherwise?

I would start at the solvent weld joint as advised then pull the hose back (currently runs down and back up - Big no no!) and lay it on the floor with the open end in a bucket.
That way you prove if the problem is the pump or the pipe run and take it from there.

 

[fixitflav]

I would start at the solvent weld joint as advised then pull the hose back (currently runs down and back up - Big no no!) and lay it on the floor with the open end in a bucket.
That way you prove if the problem is the pump or the pipe run and take it from there.

I'd have thought the OP would have checked obvious things like blockages and kinked pipes before posting on this forum.
I can't see how it couldn't be fixed, or at least the fault identified, by somebody with a modicum of ingenuity.

 

[rpm]

I'd have thought the OP would have checked obvious things like blockages and kinked pipes before posting on this forum.
I can't see how it couldn't be fixed, or at least the fault identified, by somebody with a modicum of ingenuity.

Assume nothing, the OP could work for NASA but that doesn`t mean they understand basic plumbing 🙂
Agree re the fixing or fault being identified however I prefer to see if the pump is working before (Quote) "Taking it to bits". 😱

 

[fixitflav]

Assume nothing, the OP could work for NASA but that doesn`t mean they understand basic plumbing 🙂
Agree re the fixing or fault being identified however I prefer to see if the pump is working before (Quote) "Taking it to bits". 😱

OK I think we can agree on that 🙄

 

[Gasmk1]

op last seen monday morning so either it works or they are not bothered about letting us know whats happening

 

[rpm]

op last seen monday morning so either it works or they are not bothered about letting us know whats happening

Which is disappointing.

 

[sammathias]

Bet they got the holesaw out. And goodie...just because a benchmark hasn't been filled in on paper doesn't mean it hasn't been completed...you still living in 2015 or sooo? Apps these days pal.

 

[eleguj]

Evening,

Sorry for not updating, was away on holiday this week so haven't been around home.

No change in the status of the boiler/pump, or that of the installers returning.

I tried to even out the kinks in the hose but the majority of it is underneath my floor, which is not accessible now - without pulling up carpet, underlay, plywood and floorboards.

I'm also an utter novice with anything plumbing related I'm afraid.

In relation to the pump, if it was working as it should would it still make such a loud noise when the water gets to the top? How long should it take to pump the water out? I haven't really put it to the test since it first started doing it, when it got nowhere after about 20 minutes and the noise was extremely loud.

I suppose I need to know if the system is even working in any respect, even if I'd rather there was never a pump put in to begin with (as I said before, I should've asked more questions about what they were doing but still feel they should have explained more as well).

If they don't come out to sort it, would I have grounds to raise a complaint?

 

[Gasmk1]

it should empty within 10 to 20 seconds they really are quick so you definately have a blockage you need to get them back

 

[rpm]

it should empty within 10 to 20 seconds they really are quick so you definately have a blockage you need to get them back

Can't go and tell them that you definitely have a blockage. Suppose they return and blow down the hose and declare it is clear?
From the limited info we have I'm fairly sure it is installed beyond it's capabilities so either the installers return and prove it is working or the OP pays someone else to look at it.

 

[eleguj]

Thanks for the continued feedback. I've sent them another message, if I still get nowhere I'm just going to pay someone else to have a look at it. If they determine that it's not been fitted well/properly then I will escalate my grievance with the original fitters.

The company that put it in have told me they'd provide an alternative free of charge, when I advised what the pump was doing. Strangely they never suggested I should keep this option or even ask me to do any checks, they just said it'll make that loud noise and the only way to sort it will be to keep emptying it. Almost as if they weren't surprised that it was a problem. I would've thought if the install was working as planned they wouldn't have immediately offered a free alternative solution without even suggesting the current setup could be maintained?

That said, they have yet to come out so it could all be false promises.

Rather than getting the pump working I've been told the only other option is to have the condensate going into the stack outside, but at the same time advising that this isn't best practice. Should I be concerned about that?

I feel a tad frustrated as I feel I'm only being given 2 options; 1 of which is to have this pump screaming every few days and having to manually empty water out of it or 2 doing something which we're not even meant to. I'm in a small property with the boiler immediately against the outside wall, it doesn't seem that crazy a set up that there are no good options....

 

[fixitflav]

1 of which is to have this pump screaming every few days and having to manually empty water out of it

With this option you have to manually empty it every few days, but you don't have to his pump screaming. Just disconnect its power supply.

but the majority of it is underneath my floor, which is not accessible now

The hose connection on the pump must be accessible. Can't you run a temporary hose from there, if only into a bucket, to check if it's working or not? And if it does, you've identified the problem.

 

[rpm]

If you contact the manufacturer with the model number they will send you a new hose. Use it to test the pump whilst leaving the original where it is which I still say is routed incorrectly.
The top section housing the pump/ motor must be seated correctly on the tank for it work.

 

[eleguj]

Morning folks, and happy new year!

Apologies for not posting a further update on this one, been a bit busy over the past few weeks.

So, the installer was due to come out to replace the pump and then randomly the current one started working. After a few months of it just whirring into action and running for 30/40 minutes without moving any water, one morning it kicked into action and only stayed on for 10 seconds or so and it actually pumped water out.

Since then it's been doing the same every day or so and actually appears to be working. Have no idea why it suddenly started working, as I'd played around with the hose position before with no change - and we'd done nothing to it just before it started working.

Either way for now it is doing the job its meant to, so for now all good...

 

[snowhead]

Result, hopefully.

 

[rpm]

1) It was assembled correctly this time
Or
2) It was air locked before.