Customer not paying small amount but it's the principle!!!

[mylocalplumber]

Girl calls me up. Her salon toilet is blocked..she's desperate..needs someone right away. She's nearby so I say ok. She asks my rates..I tell her £60p/h and give her my website with all my terms and rates.

get there and it's a mess..tricky and dirty. She asks can I give a price and I explain I can't coz I don't have X-ray vision but if it takes longer than an hour I'll let her know.

45 mins later I tell her I got to take the toilet off the wall. She says I don't care it needs to be done.

1.5 hrs later I'm done, cleaned up. She's not around but I discussed that I'd email the invoice.

£120 all in. This is in London btw.

She gets back to me via email calling me a cowboy and refusing to pay. Tells me it's nonsense I could not give her a price. That her boyfriend could have done it. That my rates are too high. That I never told her my rates and finally that she only had a budget of £80 which she said nothing about all while I'm still cleaning the turd off my tools.

so it's no biggie is it? £40 but I'm just so livid. She's ignoring me to even discuss on phone saying how she would advise her clients against me-I mean I'm not sure if she's trying it on or she really believes that I'm a rip off!

Her salon is a new business but I have not had a non payer for over 2 years and feel as though I should not just take it up the wrongen when I've done a good and tbh cheap job.

what would you do?..I know you should just take the knock but If she had not try and sully my name I would be a lot different. Hinting that she'd advise her clients against me? Wtf

remember she's not unhappy with the workmanship.

 

[dangreen]

Hair or nail salon? I'd tell all the women you know to go there, refuse to pay and then say their boyfriend could have done it haha.

 

[oz-plumber]

Just tell her you will reciprocate.

What is she going to do ...start every conversation with a client telling them you charged too much for unblocking her toilet.

Also, tell her you will tell everyone you know not to use her and you will do everything possible you can to make sure her doors are shut within 6 months.

Just to upset her more - lodge a claim against her in the small claims court.

It may cost your more than you lost, but you cleaned up her and her clients 'mess'

Or better still - just turn up and demand your money when she has a salon full of clients.

 

[Fallon1982]

I work on a fixed price basis for blockages. Some take 30 seconds to plunge clear, others a bit longer like you have described. But lets be fair most blocked bogs can be shifted pretty quick.
Then if you hit a bugger of a job, yeah you miss out a bit, but what you made on the easier jobs covers it.
One thing I learnt from my area is customers want to know how much a job is going to cost from the start. They don't like unexpected bills with additional time on top of what they thought it was going to be.
All this said, it don't make it easier when someone just knocks you like she has. Why don't you post the contents of the blockage through her letterbox? lol

 

[Ray Stafford]

Keep it professional. Small claims court. Dont be blackmailed, but dont let it go.

Consider it an action taken on behalf of the unofficial union of self-employed and small businesses. It may not benefit you, but it will benefit some other poor sod down the track if you can convince here that this is not the right way to behave to service providers.

 

[REDSAW]

get down there and confront when full of customers.
take what you can even if its £80.

send the other half down there if not settled and tell her to ram toilet full of sanitary towels and a bag of quick set.

sorted 😉

 

[plumben]

I'd see what money you can get then as said get someone to ram a bag of rapid set drain cement down there pan

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

problem is, if you just take what money you are offered then it paves the way for the next poor sod who walks in, and snowball effect means she tells her BFF (in with the lingo 😉 ) how she did it and they do the same. Produce an invoice for the full amount, take the cash she offers and produce an invoice for the remaining amount and politely advise her that you will have no hesitation to use the small claims court for the remaining amount. its tempting to kick off in a room full of customers but its best to be remain a professional especially when the cowboy term has been thrown about by her.

 

[SimonG]

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/20/contents

Its a commercial debt as well.

 

[joni os]

My understanding is that small claim is for debt between £50 and £10,000.00. If you accept the £80.00 you cannot use small claims for balance. The commercial decision is to take the £80.00 and use your time more productively.
That is not to say other means of recovery shouldn't be used.

 

[wattsie1987]

My favourite is boundary stopcock switch off and a tub of post mix down there. Won't get your money back but that'll shut the shop for at least a day!

 

[Dotty]

Do not, under any circumstances, damage their property. This includes postcrete in the toby, quick setting down the pan or anything to do with expanding foam.

The owner, admin and mods do not condone this behaviour and is specifically not recommended by UKPF.

Take the legal route, always.

 

[Rickster123]

Do not, under any circumstances, damage their property. This includes postcrete in the toby, quick setting down the pan or anything to do with expanding foam.

The owner, admin and mods do not condone this behaviour and is specifically not recommended by UKPF.

Take the legal route, always.

Wink wink nudge nudge...

 

[Dotty]

Should warn you all.

I'm currently having a sense of humour failure on this matter.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Legal route imho

Been here few times although never been to court however once you start squeezing with moody emails and threat of court proceedings most crack.

What i would do tho is do numerous online reviews of her business from disgruntled customers .

 

[joni os]

Do like croppie says. Use the head and not the heart.
Recently won £6000.00 without going to court because at review judge ruled defence had no chance of success in law.
Need to send letter before action setting out amount claimed and if not paid in 28 days recovery proceedings will proceed without further notice.

 

[Fallon1982]

Or just swallow it as a loss and never work for her again. Move on to honest and paying customers. Thankfully there are more paying customers than non paying.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Or just swallow it as a loss and never work for her again. Move on to honest and paying customers. Thankfully there are more paying customers than non paying.

Principle way to many small businesses think like that .

 

[Best]

Two hours chargeable for trying to clear a toilet and then having to remove the loo and clear blockage + refitting, sounds very within reasonable time and actually fast. So £60 per hour she was advised is fair. She is totally out of order and I suggest you email her with a carefully worded letter informing her of her demands and that she agreed to £60 per hour.
Frankly, I think the law allows you to charge that cost unless she had been given a quote from you for much less

 

[hammers4spanner]

I never know where the law actually lies with these little jobs..
I got caught out early in the year verbal telephone agreement done the job and finished and she decided to pay what she felt like it which was less than verbal agreement.

It would be your version vs hers without some type of written agreement.

 

[Nostrum]

Do not, under any circumstances, damage their property. :hand: This includes postcrete in the toby, quick setting down the pan or anything to do with expanding foam! :tounge_smile:

The owner, admin and mods do not condone this behaviour and is specifically not recommended by UKPF. :devilish:

Take the legal route, always. :rofl:

They make such a difference...

 

[joni os]

To dispute your invoice she would have to produce expert witness, another plumber, to say your charge was excessive. In London £120 seems reasonable for call out alone.

 

[Best]

I never know where the law actually lies with these little jobs..
I got caught out early in the year verbal telephone agreement done the job and finished and she decided to pay what she felt like it which was less than verbal agreement.

It would be your version vs hers without some type of written agreement.

Law is simple on small or larger work, - unless there is any claim of bad workmanship or damage. If a customer says the work is too expensive or cost is not what they agreed to, then they need proof or they must pay full amount. As long as charges were reasonable and fair. That would probably mean £60 an hour perhaps reasonable, but not perhaps £200 per hour for a plumber.

 

[plumben]

If you send a nice letter headed letter from a local law firm or send her a email saying you sending the court papers off in x amount of days she might give in to save her self the hassle

 

[Unregistered]

Two hours chargeable for trying to clear a toilet and then having to remove the loo and clear blockage + refitting, sounds very within reasonable time and actually fast. So £60 per hour she was advised is fair. She is totally out of order and I suggest you email her with a carefully worded letter informing her of her demands and that she agreed to £60 per hour.
Frankly, I think the law allows you to charge that cost unless she had been given a quote from you for much less

Exactly, I was fast and it wasn't straight forward. Read many of the post and it's like I agree with them all - concrete down drain(would never do that btw) legal proceedings etc.

i know what will happen though, I'm angry now but will just write it off as a loss as time goes by. I am pursuing it by not losing my temper, emailing , phoning and texting her and being polite and professional. I think in these circumstances if you go to their level it makes it a lot easier for them to justify their actions.

Also leaving bad reviews is a 2-way street. She can start doing the same to me and judging by her character she will prob put a lot of effort into this!

i know what some guys are saying about if I let her get away with it she'll do it again more easily but these people usually alienate themselves and in the end will only have the big firms to try and mess about.

So I have demanded my money and stated my case to her and now she says she's on holiday and will talk to me when she gets back...lol

so I have no option but to go there today to demand payment. I'll let you guys know what happens

 

[Masood]

So I have demanded my money and stated my case to her and now she says she's on holiday and will talk to me when she gets back...lol

so I have no option but to go there today to demand payment. I'll let you guys know what happens

I think this is a mistake.

A) How will you demand money from her if she's on holiday? B) it weakens your position if she can claim that she or her staff felt threatened by you turning up making demands with menaces. You may not be menacing but she could claim to have felt threatened.

And if she refuses point blank? Then what? Will you smash the place up? Hit her? Take her possessions? No. You'll walk out of there humiliated because your bluff will have been called in front of witnesses (assuming you're going to the shop).

Send her a final demand, by recorded letter, giving her X number of days to pay, otherwise you will start small claims proceedings, which can include interest, admin fees, court fees etc. Do it right and you will win. Start playing outside the legal system and you won't. Simple.

 

[chris watkins]

I think this is a mistake.

A) How will you demand money from her if she's on holiday? B) it weakens your position if she can claim that she or her staff felt threatened by you turning up making demands with menaces. You may not be menacing but she could claim to have felt threatened.

And if she refuses point blank? Then what? Will you smash the place up? Hit her? Take her possessions? No. You'll walk out of there humiliated because your bluff will have been called in front of witnesses (assuming you're going to the shop).

Send her a final demand, by recorded letter, giving her X number of days to pay, otherwise you will start small claims proceedings, which can include interest, admin fees, court fees etc. Do it right and you will win. Start playing outside the legal system and you won't. Simple.

Very sound advice, please take it !!!

 

[Millsy 82]

What I would do is leave it 21 days after the job finished and post a reminder saying they have 7 days to repay the debt. Also state that (as been said) it is a business to business debt and you have the right to add additional charges to the final invoice.

After you have given them 7 days send out a revised bill and keep doing it until it gets paid.

Send everything by recorded delivery.

 

[Reg Man]

That's rich: She is probably charging £80 + per hour on my misses hair cut; and don't have to go anywhere near unpleasant bum waste.

 

[Best]

For her to advise her clients to avoid you is slanderous if you have done nothing wrong - ie :- honest & good workmanship and reasonable agreed hourly rate.
You should advise her of that in writing, stating that it will damage your good reputation and cause you great loss of money and you will sue her for this.
She stated after the job was done that she only had a £80 budget for the job. As you told her at start that you have a £60 hourly rate, that means she reckoned the time would be 80 minutes maximum. Ask her how she came to the imaginary time scale, especially considering her lack of knowledge of plumbing.

 

[Best]

For her to advise her clients to avoid you is slanderous if you have done nothing wrong - ie :- honest & good workmanship and reasonable agreed hourly rate.
You should advise her of that in writing, stating that it will damage your good reputation and cause you great loss of money and you will sue her for this.
She stated after the job was done that she only had a £80 budget for the job. As you told her at start that you have a £60 hourly rate, that means she reckoned the time would be 80 minutes maximum. Ask her how she came to the imaginary time scale, especially considering her lack of knowledge of plumbing.

 

[Boilerbud]

My barber charges £15 for a hair cut takes maybe 10 minutes and plumbers are called expensive?

 

[Best]

My barber charges £15 for a hair cut takes maybe 10 minutes and plumbers are called expensive?

But barbers cut hair, we plumbers just cut corners - allegedly.

 

[SimonG]

I had something similar. Went to an appointment, nobody in, but spoke to two blokes removing an emergency generator. The place was off the beat and track and would only ge there if you were going there sort of thing. Anyway, bloke phones a couple of days later, its disgusting that you didnt turn up, etc , etc. Said I was there, but nobody home, spoke to the blokes removing the emergency generator etc. He told me that he would tell everybody that I was useless and didnt turn up as planned. Touch of red mist hit me, said I would rip his head off and crap down his neck and actually went down there but he wouldnt open the door. Two days later I had plod on the phone about my threatening behaviour. Apparently the bloke had left all the detail out about the conversation with regard to the bad mouthing. Plod asked me to be more diplomatic in future and were going back to give him a bulling.

Upshot is, keep it firm, keep it, clean and keep it legal. But chase it down.

 

[SimonG]

I had something similar. Went to an appointment, nobody in, but spoke to two blokes removing an emergency generator. The place was off the beat and track and would only ge there if you were going there sort of thing. Anyway, bloke phones a couple of days later, its disgusting that you didnt turn up, etc , etc. Said I was there, but nobody home, spoke to the blokes removing the emergency generator etc. He told me that he would tell everybody that I was useless and didnt turn up as planned. Touch of red mist hit me, said I would rip his head off and crap down his neck and actually went down there but he wouldnt open the door. Two days later I had plod on the phone about my threatening behaviour. Apparently the bloke had left all the detail out about the conversation with regard to the bad mouthing. Plod asked me to be more diplomatic in future and were going back to give him a bulling.

Upshot is, keep it firm, keep it, clean and keep it legal. But chase it down.

 

[newcastle phill]

We should start a national database lf non payers, black ball them lol

 

[Reg Man]

I had something similar. Went to an appointment, nobody in, but spoke to two blokes removing an emergency generator. The place was off the beat and track and would only ge there if you were going there sort of thing. Anyway, bloke phones a couple of days later, its disgusting that you didnt turn up, etc , etc. Said I was there, but nobody home, spoke to the blokes removing the emergency generator etc. He told me that he would tell everybody that I was useless and didnt turn up as planned. Touch of red mist hit me, said I would rip his head off and crap down his neck and actually went down there but he wouldnt open the door. Two days later I had plod on the phone about my threatening behaviour. Apparently the bloke had left all the detail out about the conversation with regard to the bad mouthing. Plod asked me to be more diplomatic in future and were going back to give him a bulling.

Upshot is, keep it firm, keep it, clean and keep it legal. But chase it down.

Twice In an hour? that's just not on....

 

[newcastle phill]

Sounds about right - report your van or garage burgled you cant get to see plod for love nor money

 

[tomplumb83]

Only been to court once. Total waste of time and effort.
I had emails from an estate agent asking me to do the work and agreeing with my price of approx 200 quid. Everything was in writing.
I employed a credit recovery company who charged me roughly more than the bill with letters and what not. I spent 2 days in another town an hour away, where the estate agent was situated. Still got nothing.
They can say anything, and they did.
'The person who issued permission to do the work shouldn't have done and she doesn't work here any more'.
'We don't look after the house anymore and its even been sold.
'We have no proof that you've done the work you said you did'.

Get as much money off her as you can. Then issue an invoice for whats owing.
For the sake of forty quid I wouldn't worry about it. Learn from it and have people sign something before you start work

 

[joni os]

'The person who issued permission to do the work shouldn't have done and she doesn't work here any more'.
[/QUOTE]
Surprised this defence was accepted as:-
It is an admission that work was approved by someone who was an employee at the time.
Employers have vicarious liability for the acts or omissions of their employees. ( As we all know if apprentice damages clients property.)

 

[Masood]

None of this makes sense.

'The person who issued permission to do the work shouldn't have done and she doesn't work here any more'.

As Joni says, this accepts that a person who once worked there, gave permission. Not your fault if they acted outside their authority, the employer is liable.

'We don't look after the house anymore and its even been sold.

Irrelevant. If they looked after it at the time work was approved and carried out, they are still liable

'We have no proof that you've done the work you said you did'.

Presumably they didn't answer your invoice with a letter / email to the effect of "What are you charging us for, the problem still exists?" You'd have some correspondence from them surely?

 

[hammers4spanner]

Have they actually disputed the invoice???

 

[joni os]

Sounds like someone got stuffed by "Square fellow handshakes", but normally its not so blatant.

 

[Dotty]

Sounds like someone got stuffed by "Square fellow handshakes", but normally its not so blatant.

Meaning?

 

[tomplumb83]

Cant answer your questions other than to say you are wrong.
I had the emails, I even traced the woman who lived at said property and had her send me an email to say Id done the work.
It was all agreed before I went into the property by email.
The estate agent even had a solicitor which looking back shows she had a good idea she'd win.
The whole experience was awful from the amount of time spent dealing with them to the days in court were I had to sit near the estate agent and two of her cronies and was made to feel like ****. All for the sake of a couple of hundred quid.

 

[tomplumb83]

Good Morning Tom



I do recall your visit very well and know that you were at the house for some hours repairing the fault. I can also confirm that you were the only Plumber working on the heating system on that day (although someone else had worked on it previously some time back). It was just a few days prior to our moving out of the house and I was in the midst of packing boxes etc. I know that you were at the house long enough for me to offer you one, if not two, hot drinks.



I did have a call from *****(??) the owners representative, who asked me what I recalled and I gave her all the above information. This was some time back, perhaps 6 - 8 weeks ago, if not longer.



I dont know if this will be of any assistance to you but I hope so.



Should you want to contact me my mobile number is



Regards

***** *******

 

[tomplumb83]

I could give you a list of emails!

Seriously, you can almost get off with anything providing you throw enough money at a solicitor. Just ask Oscar
Somehow she obviously thought she was in the right. They all do. And so did the court.
I jacked plumbing in for 3years pretty much from the aggro of this one job

My mistake. It was 5years ago after all.
I had there permission by email but they asked me to call them once I had an idea of what needed doing.
Here lies my mistake. Its easily done when the tenant doesn't have heating, you think your doing the right thing.
That said, the estate agents story changed numerous times and I thought that this alone would stand me well.

 

[hammers4spanner]

I could give you a list of emails!

Seriously, you can almost get off with anything providing you throw enough money at a solicitor. Just ask Oscar
Somehow she obviously thought she was in the right. They all do. And so did the court.
I jacked plumbing in for 3years pretty much from the aggro of this one job

I have heard other businesses say similar to be fair got a friend of mine who has been court few times and said never again waste of time .

I had big prob with builder couple year ago who owed me a fair wedge had a mare getting money out of them .Started a money claims procedure and initially they seemed to not care however couple weeks down the line they paid (most). Not sure if it was the threat of court or they just decided to pay . If people don't want to pay it is a mare situation to try and get your money and should be an easier process.

 

[Masood]

Cant answer your questions other than to say you are wrong.
I had the emails, I even traced the woman who lived at said property and had her send me an email to say Id done the work.
It was all agreed before I went into the property by email.
The estate agent even had a solicitor which looking back shows she had a good idea she'd win.
The whole experience was awful from the amount of time spent dealing with them to the days in court were I had to sit near the estate agent and two of her cronies and was made to feel like ****. All for the sake of a couple of hundred quid.

My sympathies, then. Sounds like despite having a lot of evidence in your favour either the solicitor exploited procedural errors or found a way to weasel out of it. The email from the tenant confirms you were there but doesn't detail what you did. Maybe that threw doubt on it. Some judges / magistrates make downright stupid and inexplicable decisions at times.

 

[joni os]

Res ipsa loquitor

 

[tomplumb83]

Another mistake was the fact it took 9-10months to get it to court.
By which time the house was long off there books and this in itself seemed to give them a good enough reason.
Thing is, if the landlord isn't going to pay, the estate agent isn't going to want to either are they. They had no intention of paying, just a shame I didn't have the nous to pick up on it

Ive had a large bathroom/kitchen companies refuse to pay me in the past month.
They had an email stating I was 99% sure it was going to cost them such and such.
After a month of waiting and another month of phone calls, most of which were ignored, it has now been agreed the manufacturer who Iwork for will settle the bill.
They weren't going to pay though, no matter what theyd said 2months previous

 

[tomplumb83]

Masood, other than that email, I had no proof of being at the property and no proof of doing any work.
I made mistakes but at the time I thought I had concrete evidence and theyd have to pay.
Mind you, Ill never forget how they treated me....

I wince at the money some of the plumbers on here lay out on a job! This was only 2-300. Id hate to be on the receiving end of a full heating system or more.

 

[joni os]

I normally take digital photos to confirm attendance and record completed work. Knowledge that I have this evidence deters clients from fanciful recollections.

 

[Dotty]

Agree on this,

We use a couple of pieces of software for documenting the job including before and after pics. The gas software we use also includes the ability to add attachments. We made it a policy to attach an FGA printout to the boiler, photograph it, and attach it to the document.

I wouldn't say it's a bulletproof policy but it's near as damn it.

 

[Best]

Cant answer your questions other than to say you are wrong.
I had the emails, I even traced the woman who lived at said property and had her send me an email to say Id done the work.
It was all agreed before I went into the property by email.
The estate agent even had a solicitor which looking back shows she had a good idea she'd win.
The whole experience was awful from the amount of time spent dealing with them to the days in court were I had to sit near the estate agent and two of her cronies and was made to feel like ****. All for the sake of a couple of hundred quid.

The law in the UK is often corrupt and I say that as someone that is British.
I have been in court recently (nothing to do with me) and watching all the different barristers & solicitors, mainly pretty women, going out & in from court room to clients in waiting areas, makes it all seem silly. Worst thing is a lot of this is legal aid and costing thousands literally for simple cases

 

[hammers4spanner]

legal aid has had plugged pulled

 

[drip-dry]

if you are plumbing in london and worried about £40 ....... maybe you are doing something wrong....you should be getting paid once works done if you do not know customer....maybe pur £2 extra on the next 20 jobs and move on.........if you manage to get through your self employed stint and only look back on a £20 bad dept.....you are a better man than most

ps...i am in the cement them gang ��

 

[spanner]

Was discussing the other day over outside tap cost... lolz.. I don't think it should be lesser than £100 supply fit clean up start- finish.
Yesterday in stamford Hill. For £50 YESSSSSSSS(50 minutes), it was a straight forward back to back kitchen and outside tap and all fittings in place dcv iso drain off and OK used up 500mm copper consumption...
You N ever guess
He's said it was FAR too much..
I was so hungry at the time and had no breakfast I'd left the job and had already cleaned up.
Was going for post this yesterday.
But this is what occurs when you can charge a little too less...
Never ever will I do another one. That's put me right off doing outside taps for good..

 

[Best]

Was discussing the other day over outside tap cost... lolz.. I don't think it should be lesser than £100 supply fit clean up start- finish.
Yesterday in stamford Hill. For £50 YESSSSSSSS(50 minutes), it was a straight forward back to back kitchen and outside tap and all fittings in place dcv iso drain off and OK used up 500mm copper consumption...
You N ever guess
He's said it was FAR too much..
I was so hungry at the time and had no breakfast I'd left the job and had already cleaned up.
Was going for post this yesterday.
But this is what occurs when you can charge a little too less...
Never ever will I do another one. That's put me right off doing outside taps for good..

What materials did you supply? Did you tell the customer that the £50 includes your vans total costs, tools costs and qualifications, insurances, etc, etc?

 

[spanner]

What materials did you supply? Did you tell the customer that the £50 includes your vans total costs, tools costs and qualifications, insurances, etc, etc?

The most Rotten thing was I looked first and said "£50 supply and fit" and at that price I was thinking simple and should have asked for money up front. ( and I never ask for anything up front)
Just I have plenty of dc valves and drain offs in the van back tubes etc
After completing I never believed anymore someone could say it was too much..
Anyway he has called me to get payment. I think I'll wind him up and say I me brother would have done it for £45 .
As I don't believe that anyone can have an outside tap fitted in London for less than that let alone £100.
Never even made me cuppa tea. Tight basket..