Gas fire service advice!!

[Dannypipe]

Kirkgas - I did not give any 'pelters' (not that I know exactly what you mean by that, but assume you mean I was out of order).

I merely suggested that the appliance could be dangerous. The opinion on here is mixed, with other engineers suggesting it could be.

I also added, from the outset, that I am NOT qualified to work on fires, or cookers, or space heaters, or anything but boilers. I made that abundantly clear.

I said, it sounded like the OP was in over his head. The fire has no FSD and which I found hard to believe, (but I'm sure from your post there are plenty out there).

In summary what I'll add is this....I am part P registered with Nappit for electrical installs. Yet the other day I had a fault on a job with the consumer unit, and it was over my head. I told the client 'on paper I can legally do this work, but I don't have the expertise to safely do it' and with that I called my mate Mick the spark.

Just because we're allowed to do certain jobs, doesn't mean we should. Not when peoples lifes are at risk.

Oh and my NCS - well it's not to current standards, is it? ID was a bit strong, but again as I pointed out, not my area of expertise. I was just offering an opinon.

 

[nellyc79]

nelly79 in no way shape or form was i trying to attack you, yes we all have to start somewhere, and after reading you last few posts know where your coming from.

but why not in future let people know from the start know your position and things would be alot smoother.

im sure youd be saying the same things if it were you on the other foot.

gas safe registration would be a start going by unlined comment at the bottom of you page.

I didn't get chance to!! you just assumed that i was sat on a horse!!😡

Lets just leave it at that and at least we know now that your more experienced than me!! So be NICE!!😀

 

[kirkgas]

Stan, re working on the back boiler,
this is a simple one, get a screwdriver and get the rad cover away from the bbu/fire, nice and simple no alterations to design/use are allowed, air intakes are designed/sized/positioned by the manufacturer to allow proper use of the appliances, these grills may (therefore are a no-no) effect correct operation and are not allowed.
PS if you dont mind me saying these BBU's are simplicity itself to service and repair, however as with all OF appliances check ventilation carefully, less than 90% of required vent = AR, make sure you are happy with flue flow and spillage test procedures for the appliances,strip/check/clean all parts, (recommend a CO alarm) and all should be fine

Kirkgas - I did not give any 'pelters' (not that I know exactly what you mean by that, but assume you mean I was out of order).

I merely suggested that the appliance could be dangerous. The opinion on here is mixed, with other engineers suggesting it could be.

I also added, from the outset, that I am NOT qualified to work on fires, or cookers, or space heaters, or anything but boilers. I made that abundantly clear.

I said, it sounded like the OP was in over his head. The fire has no FSD and which I found hard to believe, (but I'm sure from your post there are plenty out there).

"The reason registered people get angry is we pay a lot of money to ensure we don't break the law, and yet we're constantly undercut by unregistered swines."
this is what you said to a guy who is better qualified than you so in my book you were giving him pelters

Just because we're allowed to do certain jobs, doesn't mean we should. Not when peoples lifes are at risk.
i totally agree with this statement and is what the OP was doing before he worked on something he is qualified but in his own mind not competant to do so

Oh and my NCS -
i was clarifying that it isnt NCS, as it is in fact a fully compliant installation,
but fair do to everyones comments about it not being the safest of installs in this day and age, but we need to be careful to advise and allow the customer to take responsibility, i always try to advise people to be careful with classification (it matters not a jot whether i agree with the rules but i stick to them) if i "over classify" with the best intentions and the customer seeks clarification from someone else i will look a fool by not knowing my job,
ach well as long as we are all still pals

 

[tamz]

The fire has no FSD and which I found hard to believe

Still a lot of these around
Cannon gasmiser2.jpg

and still see the odd one of these
cannon cooker.jpg

The gasmiser was the fire that was credited as "saving the gasboard"

 

[Bernie2]

Hey! Tamz!

What are you showing them all the modern stuff for!!!

There is as you know lots of old stuff knocking about.

The thing is, I suppose like Assessor Gas seems to say, it seems gas fitters know all the rules and regulations, but perhaps little about an appliances underlying working principles.


Its a shame.

 

[stevetheplumber]

theres no substitute for experience some thing that by the time youve got it its to late

 

[Mbear]

we the great trained/experienced need to be careful when quoting regs and getting angry, the guy has asked for advice lets give some rather than pelters, he doesnt have the MI and says he wont touch, thats a good start for me, why should a 25yr old fire which was designed without a modern safety device be AR or ID? (its another arguement to say no appliance should have been allowed on the market without a safety device, but there are plenty of cookers still on sale without) Dannypipe by your own admission you dont have any competance in fires, so when you go for your HTR1 ACS you will learn all about old OF appliances without any safety device, piezzo ignition or any such thing, i have seen tons of old fires with fixed pilot which keeps blowing out leaving unburnt gas filling the living room, it simply needs a service and clean to get up and running again,
to the OP get the make and model and the MI's, follow closely and get all your safety checks done (slowly) and properly and learn well from the job, it sounds like a DFE so will prob need 100cm2 free air vent etc, let us know how you get on.

It sounds like the appliance should be listed as NCS, or possibly ID. Capped and labeled.

Danny why NCS or ID, if it is fitted as per design it is not NCS, if it isnt spilling it isnt ID, the OP has asked for some guidence on an appliance he isnt familiar with, it doesnt look as if you are very competant to advise him on fires with these comments, don't mean to upset you

i agree with all you have said KG except the sentence ive highlighted.

not having a thermocouple/flame supervision setup means its not been manufactured up to TODAYS CURRENT standard, ie Not to Current Standards, i would classify as NCS only, certainly not ID as danny suggested.

if i work on a hob in a flat that doesnt have an fsd i leave an ncs letter, even though i know it was manufactured b4 the new regs came into force regarding cookers/hobs in flats, same thing as the fire issue IMO

 

[nellyc79]

Just spoke with gas register. Thats the way the fire was manufactured so its fine as long as all checks ok, flame picture ok, flue terminal ok and ventilation ok. Its down to me to make a judgement to decide if its safe. Providing all these aspects are met I will classify NCS.

Thanks Guys anyway😉

 

[kirkgas]

we the great trained/experienced need to be careful when quoting regs and getting angry, the guy has asked for advice lets give some rather than pelters, he doesnt have the MI and says he wont touch, thats a good start for me, why should a 25yr old fire which was designed without a modern safety device be AR or ID? (its another arguement to say no appliance should have been allowed on the market without a safety device, but there are plenty of cookers still on sale without) Dannypipe by your own admission you dont have any competance in fires, so when you go for your HTR1 ACS you will learn all about old OF appliances without any safety device, piezzo ignition or any such thing, i have seen tons of old fires with fixed pilot which keeps blowing out leaving unburnt gas filling the living room, it simply needs a service and clean to get up and running again,
to the OP get the make and model and the MI's, follow closely and get all your safety checks done (slowly) and properly and learn well from the job, it sounds like a DFE so will prob need 100cm2 free air vent etc, let us know how you get on.




i agree with all you have said KG except the sentence ive highlighted.

not having a thermocouple/flame supervision setup means its not been manufactured up to TODAYS CURRENT standard, ie Not to Current Standards, i would classify as NCS only, certainly not ID as danny suggested.

if i work on a hob in a flat that doesnt have an fsd i leave an ncs letter, even though i know it was manufactured b4 the new regs came into force regarding cookers/hobs in flats, same thing as the fire issue IMO

Mbear what is the current reg that says a fire must have a FSD to be fitted in a lounge? if there is one then yes the install is NCS if there is no reg then the installation is perfectly acceptable (not withstanding we all agree it isnt as good as a fire with a FSD)

 

[Dannypipe]

Are we still banging on about this chaps!!? 🙂

 

[Mbear]

Kirkgas

I'm positive that fires made today should be made with a flame supervision device and I'm also sure it's in the regs somewhere.(I could be wrong mate).

However when cookers/Hobs now require to be fully fsd'd up when fitted when fitted in flats then I'd be surprised if fires are not the same accross the board, ie irrespective if they they are fitted in flats or bungalows or whatever

As I say mate I could be wrong, would just seem strange if they had the rule for hobs but not fires.

I certainly go for ncs in these circumstances as long as the rest of the safety Is ok

 

[aceservicing]

The fire in question is very common in London , chelsea there are up to 6 dfe baskets in 1 house and 3 gas cookers ( whole day for gas check ) and legs like Rambo after 5 floors. You should strip down and clean if you are competent enough !!!! Make sure the sand is flat and level fit all back then run 2 mom full power !!!! I always have window open until you get to the bottom of it . Spillage test if ok you mist now conduct a gas rate . Beware some dfe's I have been out to run in excess of 18 kw experience here will judge what is right. If the fire is in the basement and there is 6 floors above it high heat input will be required for correct flue pull as products of combustion will condense at lower heat input and poss not even make the flue terminal. It the fire was on the top floor and burning 18 kw I would fit a gas flow restrictor just after pipe outlet and trim back gas rate then gas rate again spillage test ( but you must lock the restrictor with creep Mark fluid ) so no one else isolates fire from that point and then re opens full bore !!!!! . Check your bs codes material . Always check spillage start up during and 15 min after . Then simply look for all adverse situations tumble dryer etc .

 

[aceservicing]

You can get a blank data plate from any fire shop . Thease type of dfe basket fires are still in production ....... Please don't be missled I store postcode in my phone together with what I found and how I set fire up .. Gas safe may ask you. Be honest with them tell them how good you are show them a few of Thease fire set ups they won't bother you again . Please remember you as an engineer should make it madatory for all flueless and open flues appliances to have a working c/o detector . I carry thease in the van . Flueless appliances can bite you in the bum : in my workshop I run a flueless gas fire with 22 mbar inlet and hey presto .. The cat converter was overloaded and carbon monoxide was present in abundance . Thease type of fires should be banned without a govonour fitted to the base of the fire, I talks now with fluval ... Sorry went on a bit ..