Is that now with everything opened up, if so then IMO 10 LPM requiring a 6M head would indicate something not right.
Is the cylinder coil opened up as well for these tests.
Welcome to the forum. Although you can post in any forum, the USA forum is here in case of local regs or laws
Is that now with everything opened up, if so then IMO 10 LPM requiring a 6M head would indicate something not right.
Is the cylinder coil opened up as well for these tests.
When I started to balance manually today, I had it on constant curve with a setppoint of 65%, it wasn’t working well....
Yesterday, I had made use of the Grundfos hydronic balancing application, GO Balance, but once the software guided balancing was complete and pump switched into Auto Adapt mode, the radiators weren’t heating correctly... and one was stone cold...
The Go Balance Application It requires a series of user inputs, which some I had to guesstimate and some it would refuse to accept as it would predict that the required heat output for a given room was not achievable... - So I ended up lowering figures until it would accept them... which then probably as a consequence messed up the balancing...
Yesterday, I had made use of the Grundfos hydronic balancing application, GO Balance, but once the software guided balancing was complete and pump switched into Auto Adapt mode, the radiators weren’t heating correctly... and one was stone cold...
The Go Balance Application It requires a series of user inputs, which some I had to guesstimate and some it would refuse to accept as it would predict that the required heat output for a given room was not achievable... - So I ended up lowering figures until it would accept them... which then probably as a consequence messed up the balancing...
Ok, well to recap, before any balancing is done I think you have to be absolutely certain that your system has been plumbed properly. The pump head and flow rate will tell a lot as it has done so except that the software is fooling everyone then it would appear that your system has a very high resistance.
The cylinder coil itself, even IF all the rads are shut off should flow ~ 6 to 8 LPm at a 3M head as it is basically a 3/4 ins by pass.
Should have seen that earlier, if you care to do one more test open the coil MV, c/o to CP setting 3M and see what the result is as there is hardly any restrictions in the coil.
No, both HW & CH and set pump to CP 3M.
If you like you can then do it on HW only on CP 3M.
I’ve just noticed that the Smart TRV app is showing an error, might mean that one of the TRV maybe malfunctioning... can’t tell from the app would need to remove all the Smart TRVs to ensure it’s not causing an issue...
- That would have to wait till tomorrow to test as the wife is sleeping.
It didn’t have an error earlier on during our tests...
- That would have to wait till tomorrow to test as the wife is sleeping.
It didn’t have an error earlier on during our tests...
Ok thanks, thats grand for the night, it may be well worth doing what you suggest to rule out any restrictions due to valve throttling or whatever.
Its interesting to see that there is virtually no difference in flow rates, power etc between HW only and HW+Heating, 1 watt and 10 rpm, I noticed the same with my system last year, no change in power under those same conditions, I don't have the RPM & Flow rate display on my pump, only power.
Re noisy operation on 6M setting, I tried this setting in my system this morning and I couldn't detect any noise even when I throttled in various TRVs etc, I assume that your TRVs are bi directional of if not, are fitted correctly? as I read somewhere that they can be noisy under certain conditions, Its just possible but unlikely that there is air in your system which would certainly lead to noisy operation when combined with a high head. Have you got a open or sealed system? with AAVs.
I said earlier that I too have micro bore but apart from the 2X 3/4 ins headers all the radiator tails are either 1/2" copper or Q.plex with a ID of 11 mm, micro bore may be 8mm ID, I hope not less. I will post a pipe friction loss link where you can calculate the big effect on head with reduced ID, I normally use 1 LPM for each kw of radiator output.
Re "the bypass is closed", is this a ABV (automatic by pass valve) and what is its setting?, they normally range from 0.1 bar to 0.5 bar.
I've nothing more to offer at the moment.
Pipe friction loss link.
friction_loss
Hi John,
Sorry it has taken time to come back to you today, i'm managing a long term health condition/disability, that affects me greatly earlier in the day.
I've tried to put as much information here as possible to give you where I am at, if you lived nearby, I am West London, I'd gladly pay you to come and diagnose what is wrong with my heating.
I really appreciate you taking time to help me, if you feel at anytime I need to call someone in, please let me know, just it is a jungle out there and it is near impossible to find a decent engineer who is interested in working on these types of issues.
Getting back to answering your questions:
I've just had the TRV bodies replaced, the steel rads have Honeywell Valencia TRVs VHL120 15mm:
https://heatingcontrols.honeywellhome.com/Documents/All/pdf/Valencia Installation Guide.pdf
- I bought these replacement TRV bodies as they have balancing inserts to allow manual balancing, but after talking to Honeywell, I abandend using them and have set the inserts to 14, which is fully open and switched to using the lockshields to control flow...
The towel rails have:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Realm-Corner-TRV-Chrome-Thermostatic/dp/B00HCL4FYW
The steel rads pipework is 10mm Microbore into a 10mm - 15mm angle, into the 15mm TRV valve.
The towel rails have 15mm copper pipework.
I note at around 50cm from boiler 22mm copper pipe is connected with right angle pushfit into 22mm plastic pipe.
All TRVs are bi directional and mainly on the flow pipe.
The lockshields are bidirectional.
The Two way valves are the correct way around.
The pump is the correct way around.
On the flow from the boiler is a Air Seporator.
On the Return to the boiler is a Adey Magnaclean Professional 2.
It is a unvented CH system with system pressure set to 1.6bar
I has one AAV and one manual air vent, in the cupboard with expansion tanks, cylinder, two way valves, pump.
Automatic Bypass Valve
---------------------------
The story here is that I switched the ABV to a manual gate valve after Grundfos support told me that I couldn't use their 'Go Balance' balancing software and the Auto Adapt pump control with an ABV...
- I had a big agument with their head of support over this...
Anyway, after unsuccessfully using their balancing software and unsuccessfully manually balancing, I put the ABV back and have it in series with a gate valve after it...
- There is actually some literature out there from Grundfos to do this if a ABV is required with the Alpha pumps...
Anyway, going back to your question about ABV...
I can't tell what it is set to as the numbering has rubbed off, it appears to be around 0.1 - 0.2 at a guess, however, I haven't heard it open once and I've played around with it up and down the complete length of the ABV range...
- I'm not sure if I need to replace the ABV if it is not working... However, the boiler isn't complaining, even when I ensure it is completely closed by closing the Gate Valve.
History
---------
Just a bit of background for you...
If you look at my posted over the last 3-4 months, you will see I have had no end of problems and components failing on the CH, all have which have led me to this point.
I have had the expansion tank fail.
Pressure Guage fail.
I had the Automatic Air Vent fail twice.
I've had trapped air and noise that I only succeeded in getting rid of once I put an air seporator in.
I've had the pump replaced.
I've had the pump connectors leak.
I've played with the system pressure.
I've had black water in the radiators, I have flushed all rads with a hose to get rid of it.
I've run Adey cleaner through the system for 3 weeks and again for another week.
I added the Magnaclean Pro 2.
I also installed the TADO Smart TRVs and Thermostat.
As you see I've done a ton of stuff and still have issues.
I'm only an ametuer DIY guy with a background in software engineering.
Sorry it has taken time to come back to you today, i'm managing a long term health condition/disability, that affects me greatly earlier in the day.
I've tried to put as much information here as possible to give you where I am at, if you lived nearby, I am West London, I'd gladly pay you to come and diagnose what is wrong with my heating.
I really appreciate you taking time to help me, if you feel at anytime I need to call someone in, please let me know, just it is a jungle out there and it is near impossible to find a decent engineer who is interested in working on these types of issues.
Getting back to answering your questions:
I've just had the TRV bodies replaced, the steel rads have Honeywell Valencia TRVs VHL120 15mm:
https://heatingcontrols.honeywellhome.com/Documents/All/pdf/Valencia Installation Guide.pdf
- I bought these replacement TRV bodies as they have balancing inserts to allow manual balancing, but after talking to Honeywell, I abandend using them and have set the inserts to 14, which is fully open and switched to using the lockshields to control flow...
The towel rails have:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Realm-Corner-TRV-Chrome-Thermostatic/dp/B00HCL4FYW
The steel rads pipework is 10mm Microbore into a 10mm - 15mm angle, into the 15mm TRV valve.
The towel rails have 15mm copper pipework.
I note at around 50cm from boiler 22mm copper pipe is connected with right angle pushfit into 22mm plastic pipe.
All TRVs are bi directional and mainly on the flow pipe.
The lockshields are bidirectional.
The Two way valves are the correct way around.
The pump is the correct way around.
On the flow from the boiler is a Air Seporator.
On the Return to the boiler is a Adey Magnaclean Professional 2.
It is a unvented CH system with system pressure set to 1.6bar
I has one AAV and one manual air vent, in the cupboard with expansion tanks, cylinder, two way valves, pump.
Automatic Bypass Valve
---------------------------
The story here is that I switched the ABV to a manual gate valve after Grundfos support told me that I couldn't use their 'Go Balance' balancing software and the Auto Adapt pump control with an ABV...
- I had a big agument with their head of support over this...
Anyway, after unsuccessfully using their balancing software and unsuccessfully manually balancing, I put the ABV back and have it in series with a gate valve after it...
- There is actually some literature out there from Grundfos to do this if a ABV is required with the Alpha pumps...
Anyway, going back to your question about ABV...
I can't tell what it is set to as the numbering has rubbed off, it appears to be around 0.1 - 0.2 at a guess, however, I haven't heard it open once and I've played around with it up and down the complete length of the ABV range...
- I'm not sure if I need to replace the ABV if it is not working... However, the boiler isn't complaining, even when I ensure it is completely closed by closing the Gate Valve.
History
---------
Just a bit of background for you...
If you look at my posted over the last 3-4 months, you will see I have had no end of problems and components failing on the CH, all have which have led me to this point.
I have had the expansion tank fail.
Pressure Guage fail.
I had the Automatic Air Vent fail twice.
I've had trapped air and noise that I only succeeded in getting rid of once I put an air seporator in.
I've had the pump replaced.
I've had the pump connectors leak.
I've played with the system pressure.
I've had black water in the radiators, I have flushed all rads with a hose to get rid of it.
I've run Adey cleaner through the system for 3 weeks and again for another week.
I added the Magnaclean Pro 2.
I also installed the TADO Smart TRVs and Thermostat.
As you see I've done a ton of stuff and still have issues.
I'm only an ametuer DIY guy with a background in software engineering.
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
I have now gone around and opened up all lockshields fully, taken off all TRVs, I have switched on the CH and HW.
The bypass is set as described previously.
Here are the status reports from the app:
- The Max Estimated Flow rate has increased to 0.9 m3/h
- When the heating or HW circuit is closed the max drops to 0.8 m3/h
CC Max
PP Max
CP Max
CP 3M
PP 3M
Auto Adapt
The bypass is set as described previously.
Here are the status reports from the app:
- The Max Estimated Flow rate has increased to 0.9 m3/h
- When the heating or HW circuit is closed the max drops to 0.8 m3/h
CC Max
PP Max
CP Max
CP 3M
PP 3M
Auto Adapt
Thanks for that very detailed post, I would have no problem in calling to you FOC but I am a long way from "London Town", in fact from a neighbouring country.
I am not in the "plumbing business" but (now long semi-retired) spent 15 years as a marine engineer and over 30 years running the Utilities Department of a large pharmaceutical company and have lots and lots of experience in all sorts of industrial pumps & pumping systems, high pressure steam boilers, combined heat and power systems, diesel generator, steam turbine & gas turbine generating sets etc, more importantly, I have always had and have a avid interest in all these things, big or small. OK then back to business.
Your system is now beginning to look a bit better, just take the CP max numbers of 0.9 ms/hr (15 LPM) @ 5.1 M. or 0.7 m3/hr (11.7 LPM @ 3M. (close to my flow rate)
IF you have no noise issues at this setting would suggest leaving it like this and take a bit of time to see how all the rads are performing before doing any balancing (if, in fact required). If you do have to do some balancing or you decide to re instate or install new TRVs anf IF you then get some noise when they are throttling down then you could consider changing to the max PP mode as the pump will then modulate down and reduce the head (and noise) but should still give reasonable flow rates.
AAV: I would suggest fitting a ball (lever) isolating valve before this to enable change out or isolation, as you probably know these can have a habit of spitting out a bit so once you have got rid of the main vol of air I would just close the little screw down cap that is (or should be) fitted to the air release nozzle and just open it occasionally.
ABV: The reason for not using it in PP mode or Auto Adapt (which is also PP mode) is as follows.
The main purpose of the ABV is to supply a flow through the boiler to cool down the heat exchanger when all the zone valves, if fitted, close, the boiler controls tell the pump to continue running for a few minutes or it may look at the flow temperature and then shut down the pump. On CC control, when the zone valves shut down, the pump pressure will rise so the ABV can be set up to be shut under all normal running conditions and only open on boiler shutdown. CP control is a little different in that the pressure is (obviously) constant so the advice there is to fit a manual by pass to give minimum by pass flow at all times.
On PP mode, as soon as the zone valves shut the pump will ramp down to its minimum head of 1/2 the max PP head, if the max PP head is 5M then at zero flow the head will be 2.5M so if you set the ABV to open at 2.5M, the bypass flow will be excessive under normal running conditions. Thats why Grundfos I would think advise not to run on Auto Adapt or PP mode where pump over run is required to cool down the heat exchanger.
If you do re instate the TRV,s then I would advise leaving one rad without a TRV, this will then act as a permanent by pass, I think I saw somewhere that some boiler manufacturers recommend the chosen rad be 10% of the boiler output so a 25 kw boiler would require a 2.5 kw rad but IMO any reasonably sized rad will do the job. By doing this you can run in any mode you want.
The last thing is the deltaT through your rads, I don't know what the individual rad outputs are but with a flowrate of 15 LPM then each rad is getting a average of 1.9 LPM, a 2 kw rad will then have a deltaT of, 2*860/1.9/60, or 15C and pro rata. If you can get hold of a temperature (infra red) scanner you can then do a bit of balancing. If they are all a little on the low side then you can always reduce the CP or PP head a little which will reduce the flow rate and increase the deltaT.
That's about it for the moment, let us know what the max head is without incurring noise problems.
Forgot to ask if you have or do inspect that magnaclean filter occasionally to ensure no restriction to flow.
I was just reading your tales of woe in the other posts including expansion valve failure and air ingress. I assume that the circ pump is on the flow side of the boiler, when you get the time, confirm this, and more importantly where the expansion vessel is teed into the system.
Last edited:
Hi John,
many thanks for your detailed post in return.
I had overdone things yesterday and the day before, playing with the heating system, as a consequence I wasn't able to sum up the strength to reply to you last night, so my apologies.
I saw from your profile that you lived in Cork, hence I realised that asking you to come and look at my heating might be a bit problematic 🙂)
- I once went to a wedding in Cork, lovely place to visit... Spent the whole wedding night woohing some lass from America, early hours down by the harbour, getting locked out of my digs, somehow ended up in 'her' room.... now that holds good memories 😉
You have an interesting background, mine is 30 years in software development/engineering/design/etc both as an employee and running my own one man band. Interestingly, I did 5 years contract work at GSK. Right now, I'm an employee for an Investment Bank, however due to long term Illness/disability I'm unable to work.
So, though i'm not a plumber in any shape or form, I have a fairly good understanding of how things work and a high capacity to learn quickly, smartly and most importantly correctly.
- What I find challenging, like in most technical industries (IT is the worst), is that accurate/useful information is hard to get, many people who are experts, understand day to day practical things but don't have the capacity/ability to share their knowledge to educate others, with many hiding behind the 'oh you will not be able to understand mantra', when it is in fact they just don't have the knowledge themselves.
- Technical support helplines are a hit and miss affair, Grundfos is a typical prime example of a particularly bad one, when I've called them for advice on their own products they hide behind the 'unless you are a G3 Engineer/system designer' we aren't talking to you... or we don't give advice you will have to talk to your system designer...
Then even when I've escalated to their Head of Customer Support and clearly demonstrated my capabilities and that their software product has no documentation, is full of holes/bugs and is totally unusable... Their claim is it doesn't need documentation as any G3 Engineer can use it... Interesting that their product refers to terminology that doesn't appear anywhere on the entire internet...
- I may later, if you are willing, ask you some questions that may point some light on questions I have about this software...
Anyway, sorry to babble on, but it's always interesting to have a side conversation going on....
The noise comes about when throttling down the lockshields to restrict flow and then upping the pressure output of the pump to get enough flow around the system...
- I need to try running the pump in PP Max mode after balancing, to see if it solves the noise issue, I was using constant curve.
With all the lockshields fully open, the noise disappears, however as a consequence, some of the Rads, mainly the ones in the downstairs front room don't heat.
FYI, going back to the original reason for wanting to balance the system was:
1) Front Room, Bedroom 2, Ensuite Shower Room not able to heat up and maintain heat when outside temperature <5c.
- Doesn't help that New Build House has insulation issues. This is being worked on, but a major problem getting builder/warranty company to fix, but slowly getting there... (Working on this for 3yrs!)
2) Rads overheats easily.
3) TADO smart TRVs struggles with the issues above.
4) Boiler continuously short cycles.
Software Balancing
------------------
I would like to retry using the Grundfos 'Go Balance' software:
Theoretically, it should work well, it uses the pump's abilities to measure flow/pressure/etc to detect the heating system and radiator capabilities, together with user input to calculate heat loss... It will then guide the user to throttle each radiator to set a certain flow.
- However, when I've used this software, some inputs i've had to guess, which could be the reason that it hasn't worked well... - Some rads not heating well, always at least one cold... (The software gives a choice of running system in AutoAdapt or PP afterwards, I had always gone with AutoAdapt, which may have not helped..)
If you are, willing, I would like to run the user inputs past you, as you probably can come up with far better inputs to use... Let me know if it is ok to ask?
Manual Balancing
----------------
If in the end the software fails to get it right, I will then need to use manual balancing with a temperature gauge (I have an InfraRed Flur gun) - I did struggle to know what mode to run the pump in, to mimic Fix Run Speed 2, but I'm thinking CC set to a setpoint of 65%??
AAV
---
Yep, learnt my lesson previously on this one, I have the AAV closed after removing air from the filling process.
- It would be hard to fit a isolation valve, purely due to the AAV currently screwed into a bolt that has been solder into a Tee that itself is soldered into small very tight pipework, redoing the pipework would take major surgery and the other issue is I haven't taught myself how to solder (yet), so ideally I would be using compression components, which isn't ideal...
I haven't closed the Air Separator, should I?
ABV
---
I'm not actually sure if one is actually needed... It have never seen it open in AutoAdpat/PP modes and I have not had any issues with my boiler when the heating circuits and bypass are closed, even though the boiler manual states a bypass is required.
- Interestingly though, Glowworm support have told me that the boiler has no minimum flow requirements, which contridicts the manual.
Delta T through the Rads.
------------------------
Part of the exercise to gather information for the 'Go Balance' software, I have all the technical specs of each radiator and specifications of each room, plus me Infrared temperature gun.
Magnaclean
----------
I fitted it in December, checked in on Thursday, it was practically clean, a miniscule amount on it.
- Interestingly, when I put the ABV back on Thursday, the elbow I took off (which was put in its place when I took it out, had a bit of blackness settled in it. Guessing it had settled there due to the manual bypass being closed)
Pipework Layout
---------------
As far as I can tell the pump is on the flow side, certainly the flow pipe from the boiler heats first, the pump is before the 2 way valves to radiator/HW circuits.
I can't be 100% sure as pipework is hidden between boiler and airing cupboard that contains the pump, valves, expansion tank, HW cylinder.
Is there a sure way to tell??
Expansion Vessel position
-------------------------
The pipework to the expansion vessel comes off the return pipework back to the boiler.
I've attached a photo of the pipework, let me know if more photos are required.
Legend:
A - Return to boiler.
B - Flow from boiler.
C - Radiator return from downstairs and upstairs rads.
D - Flow to downstairs radiators.
E - Cold Water feed.
F - Hot water out of the cylinder.
Note:
The 2 way valves for downstairs and upstairs are wired together, I did this as TADO only works with one physical zone. - I may at a later date, re-pipe to only have one 2 way valve to control the radiator circuit.
The layout of return pipework from the radiators, HW cylinder and the bypass has always put a question mark in my head, as it doesn't look right, however, I don't know what a correct layout would look like... What do you think?
Right, I will stop for now, I think there is a mass of information for you to read and a ton of questions, I again thank you for helping me out, I hope this is all interesting for you.
Cheers!
Richard.
Ps, If you ever want to chat on the phone or switch to email, let me know.
Pps, I might struggle with the accent 🙂
many thanks for your detailed post in return.
I had overdone things yesterday and the day before, playing with the heating system, as a consequence I wasn't able to sum up the strength to reply to you last night, so my apologies.
I saw from your profile that you lived in Cork, hence I realised that asking you to come and look at my heating might be a bit problematic 🙂)
- I once went to a wedding in Cork, lovely place to visit... Spent the whole wedding night woohing some lass from America, early hours down by the harbour, getting locked out of my digs, somehow ended up in 'her' room.... now that holds good memories 😉
You have an interesting background, mine is 30 years in software development/engineering/design/etc both as an employee and running my own one man band. Interestingly, I did 5 years contract work at GSK. Right now, I'm an employee for an Investment Bank, however due to long term Illness/disability I'm unable to work.
So, though i'm not a plumber in any shape or form, I have a fairly good understanding of how things work and a high capacity to learn quickly, smartly and most importantly correctly.
- What I find challenging, like in most technical industries (IT is the worst), is that accurate/useful information is hard to get, many people who are experts, understand day to day practical things but don't have the capacity/ability to share their knowledge to educate others, with many hiding behind the 'oh you will not be able to understand mantra', when it is in fact they just don't have the knowledge themselves.
- Technical support helplines are a hit and miss affair, Grundfos is a typical prime example of a particularly bad one, when I've called them for advice on their own products they hide behind the 'unless you are a G3 Engineer/system designer' we aren't talking to you... or we don't give advice you will have to talk to your system designer...
Then even when I've escalated to their Head of Customer Support and clearly demonstrated my capabilities and that their software product has no documentation, is full of holes/bugs and is totally unusable... Their claim is it doesn't need documentation as any G3 Engineer can use it... Interesting that their product refers to terminology that doesn't appear anywhere on the entire internet...
- I may later, if you are willing, ask you some questions that may point some light on questions I have about this software...
Anyway, sorry to babble on, but it's always interesting to have a side conversation going on....
The noise comes about when throttling down the lockshields to restrict flow and then upping the pressure output of the pump to get enough flow around the system...
- I need to try running the pump in PP Max mode after balancing, to see if it solves the noise issue, I was using constant curve.
With all the lockshields fully open, the noise disappears, however as a consequence, some of the Rads, mainly the ones in the downstairs front room don't heat.
FYI, going back to the original reason for wanting to balance the system was:
1) Front Room, Bedroom 2, Ensuite Shower Room not able to heat up and maintain heat when outside temperature <5c.
- Doesn't help that New Build House has insulation issues. This is being worked on, but a major problem getting builder/warranty company to fix, but slowly getting there... (Working on this for 3yrs!)
2) Rads overheats easily.
3) TADO smart TRVs struggles with the issues above.
4) Boiler continuously short cycles.
Software Balancing
------------------
I would like to retry using the Grundfos 'Go Balance' software:
Theoretically, it should work well, it uses the pump's abilities to measure flow/pressure/etc to detect the heating system and radiator capabilities, together with user input to calculate heat loss... It will then guide the user to throttle each radiator to set a certain flow.
- However, when I've used this software, some inputs i've had to guess, which could be the reason that it hasn't worked well... - Some rads not heating well, always at least one cold... (The software gives a choice of running system in AutoAdapt or PP afterwards, I had always gone with AutoAdapt, which may have not helped..)
If you are, willing, I would like to run the user inputs past you, as you probably can come up with far better inputs to use... Let me know if it is ok to ask?
Manual Balancing
----------------
If in the end the software fails to get it right, I will then need to use manual balancing with a temperature gauge (I have an InfraRed Flur gun) - I did struggle to know what mode to run the pump in, to mimic Fix Run Speed 2, but I'm thinking CC set to a setpoint of 65%??
AAV
---
Yep, learnt my lesson previously on this one, I have the AAV closed after removing air from the filling process.
- It would be hard to fit a isolation valve, purely due to the AAV currently screwed into a bolt that has been solder into a Tee that itself is soldered into small very tight pipework, redoing the pipework would take major surgery and the other issue is I haven't taught myself how to solder (yet), so ideally I would be using compression components, which isn't ideal...
I haven't closed the Air Separator, should I?
ABV
---
I'm not actually sure if one is actually needed... It have never seen it open in AutoAdpat/PP modes and I have not had any issues with my boiler when the heating circuits and bypass are closed, even though the boiler manual states a bypass is required.
- Interestingly though, Glowworm support have told me that the boiler has no minimum flow requirements, which contridicts the manual.
Delta T through the Rads.
------------------------
Part of the exercise to gather information for the 'Go Balance' software, I have all the technical specs of each radiator and specifications of each room, plus me Infrared temperature gun.
Magnaclean
----------
I fitted it in December, checked in on Thursday, it was practically clean, a miniscule amount on it.
- Interestingly, when I put the ABV back on Thursday, the elbow I took off (which was put in its place when I took it out, had a bit of blackness settled in it. Guessing it had settled there due to the manual bypass being closed)
Pipework Layout
---------------
As far as I can tell the pump is on the flow side, certainly the flow pipe from the boiler heats first, the pump is before the 2 way valves to radiator/HW circuits.
I can't be 100% sure as pipework is hidden between boiler and airing cupboard that contains the pump, valves, expansion tank, HW cylinder.
Is there a sure way to tell??
Expansion Vessel position
-------------------------
The pipework to the expansion vessel comes off the return pipework back to the boiler.
I've attached a photo of the pipework, let me know if more photos are required.
Legend:
A - Return to boiler.
B - Flow from boiler.
C - Radiator return from downstairs and upstairs rads.
D - Flow to downstairs radiators.
E - Cold Water feed.
F - Hot water out of the cylinder.
Note:
The 2 way valves for downstairs and upstairs are wired together, I did this as TADO only works with one physical zone. - I may at a later date, re-pipe to only have one 2 way valve to control the radiator circuit.
The layout of return pipework from the radiators, HW cylinder and the bypass has always put a question mark in my head, as it doesn't look right, however, I don't know what a correct layout would look like... What do you think?
Right, I will stop for now, I think there is a mass of information for you to read and a ton of questions, I again thank you for helping me out, I hope this is all interesting for you.
Cheers!
Richard.
Ps, If you ever want to chat on the phone or switch to email, let me know.
Pps, I might struggle with the accent 🙂
Thanks Richard,
Where to start?
It's very hard to tell from photo's etc the piping layout but any/most experienced plumbers should be able to check that out.
I think your first task should be to get rid of any remaining air before doing any form of balancing, either software or manually.
I have no problem in you forwarding any info re software balancing but I feel that there is something fundamentally wrong when both D/stairs & U/stairs don't heat together in some form or other.
On the Top Up system: are the isolating valves to the pressure reducing valve (PRV) open or shut?, I would shut them off if open and ensure that the expansion vessel pressure stays constant or within its normal rise and fall with cold/hot boiler to make sure that you havn,t got a leak somewhere in the system, the constant make up will then continuously release its oxygen and you will always have problems with air in the system apart from any corrosion problems.
You say that the U/stairs & D/stairs MVs are wired together, have you checked that they are both opening fully?.
With valves open to the top up system and AAV open and HW off:
I would shut off all the rads (one side only) and starting D/stairs, just open the first one ( pump on CP 5.1M) and ensure all air is vented at the rad, record the head and flow on this CP setting and then just change to PP 5.1 and again record the head and flow. Repeat this process in all the rads individually, both D/stairs & U/stairs and record everything, it might tell you something.
You could then just open all the D/stairs rads only and again record the head/flow on both CP&PP mode and then ditto for the U/stairs (D/stairs off).
Ther's no point in me prattling on I think except to say that I presume the E.vessel pressure gauge is rising/falling with boiler hot/cold, this will check (sort of) that the pipe work between the E.vessel and the system is clear and that you have a fully pressurised system.
Yes, I think that you should shut off the Air separator, can you please post a link?
I'll leave it at that for the moment.
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