We have a leak in a central heating pipe under the tiled floor in our downstairs bathroom. The water was seeping up through the floor. I called a plumber and he lifted the tiles and dug to reveal the pipe and find the leak. He has repaired the leak using compression joints (also repaired larger 28mm pipe which he punctured when digging), which he says are more reliable than soldering, but we have had constant leaks from each pipe every time the water is turned back on. Water is now off and boiler not working, so he is due back today. I have researched and found that compression joints should not be used under concrete and joints should be soldered. I also read pipes should be protected with Denso tape, but he says they need no protection. He is also going to fill the hole with rapid set tiling adhesive before refitting the tiles. Am I right to be worried?
- Thread starter Sylvergrunge
- Start date
Welcome to the forum. Although you can post in any forum, the USA forum is here in case of local regs or laws
1. What was the cause of the original leak? If pin-holed copper pipe, then likely to be much more widespread than just the point at which the leak occurred.
2. He's talking nonsense. The best form of joint for inaccessible places is a properly soldered joint. Even better if pressure tested before floor re-laid.
3. What is in the 28 mm pipe? Is it water, or gas. If gas it absolutely must not have an inaccessible compression joint.
4. I'd recommend you get someone who knows what they are doing. If that is a gas pipe, they must be Gas Safe registered.
2. He's talking nonsense. The best form of joint for inaccessible places is a properly soldered joint. Even better if pressure tested before floor re-laid.
3. What is in the 28 mm pipe? Is it water, or gas. If gas it absolutely must not have an inaccessible compression joint.
4. I'd recommend you get someone who knows what they are doing. If that is a gas pipe, they must be Gas Safe registered.
Thank you for your reply. Apparently the leak was at the T joint. He didn't mention pin holes. The leaks happening now are definitely from the compression joins as i can see water coming out of them, even after tightening.
I have already paid out £427 for him to complete the work to this stage, so hoping he can sort it :/ The 28mm pipe is defo water. I think it is from the pump or tank to the boiler.
How shall I get him to pressure test it before relaying the floor?
IMO, the new stuff needs removing and redoing to a proper standard. Make sure the damp proof membrane wasn't damaged in the first attempt. Entombing pipes in concrete is a not a good idea, even if you do wrap them. It's better to form a channel and cover it with a wooden lid to allow access without hacking out concrete (or epoxy!).
I'd not let whoever did what's in your pictures try to remedy the work, they clearly didn't know what they are doing and may make things worse. Get someone competent and, if you can be bothered, try to reclaim some of the cost from your first 'plumber'.
I'd not let whoever did what's in your pictures try to remedy the work, they clearly didn't know what they are doing and may make things worse. Get someone competent and, if you can be bothered, try to reclaim some of the cost from your first 'plumber'.
Yes you've hired a cowboy.
Cut your losses and get someone else in, this person is just not competent.
Looks like original pipework was protected by fabric tape.
Cut your losses and get someone else in, this person is just not competent.
Looks like original pipework was protected by fabric tape.
Sorry, yes.
Those compression joints on the 28 look to be crooked (so will leak) and have been tightened with grips because he obviously lacked a big enough spanner for them (cosmetic issue, but doesn't bode well).
The work on the smaller-bore pipe looks tidy enough, but you should definitely avoid compression joints that are not accessible (technically the water regulations considers tiles to be an 'accessible' cover, but I think the idea is in a wall, not buried in a concrete floor!). Anyway, soldered joints are cheaper and more reliable. I can understand that compression may have been easier in this situation (only in some respects), but it just isn't a situation I'd have chosen to use compression in.
Denso tape is best for concrete. A lot of good plumbers would use duct tape instead if the pipes are just in a wall behind plaster or whatever. But I think your guy is well out of his depth so Denso tape or not is by the by. Soldering is one of the first things you should learn on a basic plumbing course (though it is possible to pass without actually being any good at it). Compression joints are supposedly more DIY friendly, though actually there most definitely is a knack and even good plumbers will have the very occasional leak with compression. To have several on one job and to have left the site before checking, however...
Those compression joints on the 28 look to be crooked (so will leak) and have been tightened with grips because he obviously lacked a big enough spanner for them (cosmetic issue, but doesn't bode well).
The work on the smaller-bore pipe looks tidy enough, but you should definitely avoid compression joints that are not accessible (technically the water regulations considers tiles to be an 'accessible' cover, but I think the idea is in a wall, not buried in a concrete floor!). Anyway, soldered joints are cheaper and more reliable. I can understand that compression may have been easier in this situation (only in some respects), but it just isn't a situation I'd have chosen to use compression in.
Denso tape is best for concrete. A lot of good plumbers would use duct tape instead if the pipes are just in a wall behind plaster or whatever. But I think your guy is well out of his depth so Denso tape or not is by the by. Soldering is one of the first things you should learn on a basic plumbing course (though it is possible to pass without actually being any good at it). Compression joints are supposedly more DIY friendly, though actually there most definitely is a knack and even good plumbers will have the very occasional leak with compression. To have several on one job and to have left the site before checking, however...
Thanks for all your replies. Currently sat with it still leaking even after his return today. We discussed having the pipes above ground instead of under the concrete and boxing them in. Happier with this from a practical perspective even though it won't look as sleek. Currently finding our bathroom has more issues elsewhere (leak under the bath too) and feeling rather overwhelmed with the whole thing. I would like to bin him off for another plumber but we currently have no water or heating now (so worse off than when we started) and he is due back tomorrow. All other plumbers I called in the area are booked up for weeks so really not sure where to turn. My husband and I both work from home and were freezing today 😞
Feel for you. Tell him to make good what he's actually done (make it leak free) get your boiler going and tell him to Sod off. If you can live with it buy a bag of sharp sand, fill in the hole and compact and cover until you can get it fixed properly.
That is a good idea. Will speak with him when he gets here tomorrow. My only issue now is finding a local plumber in Exeter that isn't a cowboy, and that will actually call me back!
There are two smaller pipes going horizontal to the wall and the large pipe going across them. It definitely isn't neat down there or easy to get to. Must admit (to my untrained eye) looking at other things in the bathroom, it may have been a bit of a both job initially and there are other bits that will need looking at once the leak is fixed. E.g. took panel off bath to find the wood struts that are holding the bath up are not even screwed together!
- May 23, 2015
- 35,139
- 1
- 14,996
- 113
- Member Type
- Heating Engineer (Has GSR)
We’ve all been there can’t stop it leaking / dripping so soldering is a no go
Only way compression, I’ll hold my hands up and say I’ve used compression in a floor only reason why it kept dripping
Only way compression, I’ll hold my hands up and say I’ve used compression in a floor only reason why it kept dripping
Never fails to amaze me how little water/steam is needed to take all the heat out of a propane torch flame! I have a roughly 1m long, 12mm dia. length of silicone tubing that I push up the pipework as far as it will go and blow down it to purge water but it doesn't always work. Would love to hear about any other tricks...
Press fit. Wet vac. Freezer kit. Bread.
Both sides of pipe buried in concrete so no movement at all to get fittings in.
Pipes damaged from trying to expose them.
Could be imperial.
It’s not a job I would want and I bet the plumber regrets ever touching it.
Electric soldering. Heat is more direct so doesn't travel down the pipe and create steam so much. I don't own this kind of kit, but borrowed one once.
Mmmm, if imperial I suppose he'd have a bit of a case.
Still I would've excavated much more and pull up more tiles if need be to make more room and free up the pipes if by only a little. You can see how distorted and beaten up the 28mm is cos he's forced it. No tape, paste or use of a bender which may of helped. If imperial could've used conversion couplings and or slip couplings and he still charged a chunk for a terrible job and left the client without heating or hot water. He could've used a flexi as temporary fix and left the bath rad disconnected untill he got his XXXX together. Just not good enough imo despite the possible difficulties.
Last edited:
He is back again today. He is welding the pipes and going to leave it all open for now as we are now considering more bathroom work (with a different plumber) as other issues have been exposed. I will make sure he has the water and heating back up and running before he leaves. Agreed that this is all under warranty of original work (as when I paid he thought all was fixed and said 2 year warranty on all work) so no more payment expected. To pressure check would you suggest I just turn water on and heating and wait to see if there are leaks?
Your boiler should have a pressure gauge, it'll rise and fall when heating turns on and when the system cools. Just keep an eye on it to see if it falls alot more than through normal use.
Last edited:
Qe don't have a combi boiler. It is an open system. Shall I listen for the header tank in the loft filling once the heating is on? Shall I try and make him hang around for a while 9nce it is all on?
Well it's all got very heated. He says the large pipe is leaking further down and he is no longer going to work for free to fix it all. All I have asked is that he fixes the compression joints that he put in in the first place, that are still leaking! He is shouting over me and won't listen. Also he says he works for a company and blames them for things, but won't give us details of anyone else to contact in his company. I don't think it is a company, just him!
Shame you've paid up. I'm not sure what else to suggest 'cept get him out and contact an emergency qualified plumber and pay the rate for a fix. However you said he's guaranteed the work so he is obliged to at least leave you in a slightly better state of repairs, is it in writing at least? Don't need to answer that...
I know! I am writing off the £427 as an expensive lesson learnt. I have contacted another plumber through a recommendation and he is coming to have a look later. Thanks for all your help and support, and being a listening ear. It has been very much appreciated 🙏
Good luck
As someone mentioned above some push fit fittings and flexible pipe might give you a temp solution until a permanent repair/repipe can be done
Imperial pipe should not be an issue. I have transition couplings in the van as I know local merchants don't always carry them, but they are cheap enough to always have a couple on hand. Perhaps I am unusual in carrying stock on a just-in-case basis, but I feel part of the job is being prepared.
New plumber has got boiler working and water running, leaving just a very small leak (as didn't have time to fix at such short notice today. 28mm pipe dips down in the middle of the bathroom and then flattens out again, making an s shape and the leak is on the bottom bend. He is coming back tomorrow to investigate further. The pipe sticking out of the wall is imperial so he is also getting a transition coupling to try and sort, as the welding done by the first plumber still has a tiny leak.
Not the easiest thing to try and repair you need a few tricks of the trade for a satisfactory outcome , your plumbers used to many compression fittings we all use em on the odd occasion to get ourselves out of trouble, if used correctly and tighten with 2 spanners it's very rare they leak I don't have a problem with using em 👍 kop
So update on the leak. It's still there! New plumber doesn't want to cut pipe and open a new can of worms (imperial pipe and 28mm pipe meet at a point just in front of a wall and under the skirting) Soldering from first plumber is all over the place but appears to be sealing the pipe in those places. Very visable leak from the 28mm pipe which he has tried to seal with an epoxy resin this morning, but I can see it is still leaking. Spoke about rerouting pipes but he says it is a huge job due to the position of the tank (in a cupboard in the middle of the house) and the boiler (in the utility at the side of the house, and two bathrooms in between, which the 28mm pipe goes under). Says is would be cheaper to put in a whole new system! I am at the point I would pay for a whole new system as this is really stressing me out, but timescales for a job that size are months away, so we need a temporary fix. Can anyone give any advice or other fixes? I am literally pulling my hair out now as this has been going on for nearly 2 weeks now and we are no further forward. I don't know where to turn or who to ask.
Looks like there was a copper tube put over the 28mm and the imperial. Imperial is the green bit sticking out the wall, then tube over the top, then soldering where plumber 1 worked. The main leak now is at the other end of the 28mm pipe though, where it goes down under what we think is a gas pipe!
Attachments
This is where is bends down under the gas pipe and is leaking bad (not the gas thankfully). You can see the epoxy resin he has put on, but it isn't working. I am off to buy sentinel leak sealer to add to the system in the hope it may help a little, temporarily.
Attachments
Leak sealers work on minor weeps. How about buy a temporary pipe repair tape? They will hold mains pressure if used carefully.
I am hoping the leak sealer will seal up any other issues (we think there may be more leaks in the pipes elsewhere). The issue with a tape is there is no room to go under the pipe as it dips down under the gas pipe and we are worried about piercing the dpm. Also, as it appears to be leaking along the connection as opposed to the pipe (right on the bend too) I am not sure we will get a good bond. I have ordered some ct1 as I have seen it recommended on here. Not sure it will work on this type of leak though, although may work in conjunction with a tape?
Where is that latest set of pics showing the excavation, outside or another room next to bathroom?
The imperial water pipe leaking under the gas pipe is being fed from, what and goes where to exactly?
Distance between two excavation sites?
The imperial water pipe leaking under the gas pipe is being fed from, what and goes where to exactly?
Distance between two excavation sites?
All pics are in the main bathroom. The last three are a close up of the 28mm pipe going down under the gas pipe.
The imperial pipe leads from the tank (in cupboard to the left about a meter away, that passes under my ensuite shower nextdoor) to the boiler, in the utility at the other side (right) of the bathroom. All pipes are under concrete flooring.
I will upload a pic showing distance (approx 60cm)
Attachments
Can you use a large format for posting pics please, my eyes/glasses are Rubbish.
Post pic of imperial pipe coming from and to and from boiler & tank.
Was the last plumber able to it shut off and wet vac the site or did he apply the putty/epoxy under water? How have you left it with him, is he done?
Post pic of imperial pipe coming from and to and from boiler & tank.
Was the last plumber able to it shut off and wet vac the site or did he apply the putty/epoxy under water? How have you left it with him, is he done?
You can use repair tapes on a faulty soldered joint, if that's what you have. The one I have in my toolbox (in case I mess up!) doesn't stick well at all, but if I get it on and pull it tight, it seals. Then I have to tie it in place with something else, but at least the water is contained. No use if you can't get it round the pipe however. Not sure there's much point using a proprietary leak tape with CT1.
Agreed, don't bother with CT1 or get your money back. I have an idea/method if all else fails but it requires the area being clean and dry.
- May 23, 2015
- 35,139
- 1
- 14,996
- 113
- Member Type
- Heating Engineer (Has GSR)
28mm and inch copper are close enough where you can solder them using a 28mm coupling no problem
How do I post large format pics? Using my phone. These are pics of pipe in the tank and going down into the floor from the cupboard.
Plumber did shut off and drain the system but I think the area was wet. Epoxy is coming off 😔 Waiting on a call back from him regarding next move.
Attachments
Forget the amalgamated tape, terrible idea given the access and pipe condtion. If you can dig down beneath it for access and get that epoxy off too, clean up the pipe as best you can.
That leaking pass over section (or pass under in your case) really needs to be replaced, if the plumber wont do it find another and ideally a tradesman that has a press fit device.
That leaking pass over section (or pass under in your case) really needs to be replaced, if the plumber wont do it find another and ideally a tradesman that has a press fit device.
Last edited:
Looks like that pass under is made up of a number of sections which would've been difficult to solder in situ as well as amateur.
I can't see it, is the leak on internal or external part of bend and is heating on and pipe full and leaking?
See if you can get a small wire brush, scouring pad or emery cloth and clean it up until it looks like copper.
I can't see it, is the leak on internal or external part of bend and is heating on and pipe full and leaking?
See if you can get a small wire brush, scouring pad or emery cloth and clean it up until it looks like copper.
Ok don't panick, no further damage is really being done 'cept you're a bit cold.
Ok you need to clean that pipe around the leak abit better than it is cos I'd like you to try a marine/weatherproof epoxy putty otherwise it won't adhere properly. What's your nearest retailer, any plumbers merchants, Screwfix, Halfords etc?
Ok you need to clean that pipe around the leak abit better than it is cos I'd like you to try a marine/weatherproof epoxy putty otherwise it won't adhere properly. What's your nearest retailer, any plumbers merchants, Screwfix, Halfords etc?
Halfords?
www.halfords.com
Never used it, pipe needs to be clean though otherwise it'll come off like the last lot.
Evo-stik Hard & Fast Metal Epoxy Putty | Halfords UK
Shop the latest Evo-stik Hard & Fast Metal Epoxy Putty easy to mix steel reinforced epoxy putty dries in 10 minutes at Halfords UK
www.halfords.com
Never used it, pipe needs to be clean though otherwise it'll come off like the last lot.
Last edited:
If you can wait from Amazon Prime...
PC Marine Epoxy putty or Jenolite Copper repair.
They all say they can repair when wet but it can be difficult to get adhesion so no guarantees. Proper fix is replacement so temp fix only.
PC Marine Epoxy putty or Jenolite Copper repair.
They all say they can repair when wet but it can be difficult to get adhesion so no guarantees. Proper fix is replacement so temp fix only.
Last edited:
Not heard from plumber number 3 yet, so have ordered Jenolite. Thought I would try amalgamating tape as a short term til Jenolite gets here. It isn't pretty but it has certainly stalled the leak a bit, which is something. At least I might get a full (albeit cold) nights sleep tonight without having to wake up and hoover up water!
- May 23, 2015
- 35,139
- 1
- 14,996
- 113
- Member Type
- Heating Engineer (Has GSR)
Looks like it is holding for a minute ( just a tiny puddle under in the past 2 hours, although the heating isn't on so not under pressure. The issue is where the leak is. Right on the internal bend so hard to clip, or do anything to!
- Jun 28, 2007
- 3,088
- 1,253
- 113
- Member Type
- DIY or Homeowner
I see. You can't solder because the pipe is in a dip and therefore full of water. You seem to have got it reasonably clean so adhesive now seems possible.
Surely a plumber could take up a further tile to the left of the gas pipe, run a new passover OVER the pipe and, while it will be messy, the urgency will be taken out of the situation. Or bypass the pipework somehow, clip a new section along the wall? Although I am aware the difficulty seems to be finding the plumber.
As for the rubber/jubilee clip idea, I think it might be a good one, but perhaps if you can get some twistable wire that won't snap as soon as you try to twist it, that might be easier than the Jubilee given the poor access. If you do try again with sealant, a clip or wire on top could be a good idea. But if tape is working...
Surely a plumber could take up a further tile to the left of the gas pipe, run a new passover OVER the pipe and, while it will be messy, the urgency will be taken out of the situation. Or bypass the pipework somehow, clip a new section along the wall? Although I am aware the difficulty seems to be finding the plumber.
As for the rubber/jubilee clip idea, I think it might be a good one, but perhaps if you can get some twistable wire that won't snap as soon as you try to twist it, that might be easier than the Jubilee given the poor access. If you do try again with sealant, a clip or wire on top could be a good idea. But if tape is working...
I have the Jenolite and am currently draining the system (typically the leak is at the very lowest point of the entire system so it is taking a while!
In the meantime I thought I would swap out an old valve on an old radiator for a thermostatic one, but it looks like I have ancient ones and they are way smaller than any I can find online. Any suggestions as to what I can do/where I can find small ones?
In the meantime I thought I would swap out an old valve on an old radiator for a thermostatic one, but it looks like I have ancient ones and they are way smaller than any I can find online. Any suggestions as to what I can do/where I can find small ones?
Attachments
If I knew you could drain the system and dry out the leaking joint somewhat I would've suggested you use some JB Weld epoxy. Make a small saturated fabric wrap with it and wrap the joint but ideally you have to leave it for 24hrs to cure and ideally has to be dry with no back pressure from any water.
For a start that's the lockshield valve, so you should probably be looking at changing the other one (the wheelhead valve)*. Secondly, you're measuring it wrong. Inside that big nut will be a hexagonal recess for a kind of large Allen key designed for removing radiator valve tails. The type of connexion your radiator has is now less common, so you'll need to wind out the whole valve tail which will screw into the radiator. The radiator itself finishes flush. You probably won't see the joint, because the tail has been painted over heavily.
Concerned you may be slightly out of your depth, but I suppose if you want to learn, it's not a bad place to start. Worst case scenario is you have to blank off the radiator pipe for a while and remain one radiator down - so if you aren't competent with fitting a compression stopend correctly first, buy a number of copper olives and a couple of compression stopends in 15mm size (will also work on 1/2") then you can practice on a scrap bit of pipe connected to a hose.
*I say probably because most TRVs can be fitted to either the flow or return of the radiator - some are directional, so you need to check the arrow on the body and make sure you fit it so it points in the direction of water flow which might mean you HAVE to fit it where the current lockshield valve is. Usually the lockshield valve will be on the return - the cooler end of the radiator.
Sorry, I know I put the wrong end in the pic. It was just easier ro show measurement on that end as I had just drained that rad from that end, and both sides are same valve length.
I appreciate your honesty saying I am out of my depth. I will happily try my hand at most things, but always happy to call in the experts if it is above me. Hence asking here first 😊 I'll just wait until I can finally get hold of an available local plumber and add it on to my jobs list for them 😆
So, system drained. Pipe cleaned and sanded. Jenolite applied. Left to cure for a day and system refilled and sentinel leak sealer added. Heating and water put back on this evening. New leak spotted (other end of the same fixing) and quickly plugged with Jenolite and wrapped in Amalgamating tape. Old leak still active and back to its old tricks. I could cry 😔
You've got the pipe doing that for you though 🙂
It is seriously surprising how hard it is to hold back water even at a low pressure. I once tried to mend a stolen joint on a private supply that had only a few metres' head from the stream inlet to the joint by using some non-elastic denim pasted in silicone to seal the joint, a wrapping of old inner tube to cover the fabric, and then a wire binding to hold it all together and take the strain of the water pressure. I was convinced it would work, but it totally didn't. This wasn't a paid job, please note. I still need to learn the subtle art of bodging... some people can do stuff like this and have it last 30 years!
This is how every plumber learns. (Not the tape and leak sealer bit, the bit where you do your best and really think you've got it sorted and it goes and leaks somewhere else)
It is hard.
I was convinced it had worked as was all bone dry for a while, then it found a pathway and boom!!!
I am normally a pretty good bodger, but plumbing is beyond me. I take my hat off to you guys.
We are at the point of calling in British Gas to put in a whole new system (combi boiler to get rid of the tank and the need for this stupid pipe) and bypass all the floor pipes completely. I am so done with this leak. My carpets are damp as it is now seeping up through the concrete floor in the hallway too 😔
Sorry to hear that, can be hit or miss with these resins. Start over, do as you did with your prep making sure it's clean and dry. JB Weld will do it now you know where your leaks are. Make an impregnated wrap with the epoxy and wrap the fitting, stipple it with a brush or use gloves to apply. I 've used this a few times with no failures as long as it can dry cure.
Edit: fair enough but it still might be a while before you can get your system replaced but sound like you have other leaks too.
Edit: fair enough but it still might be a while before you can get your system replaced but sound like you have other leaks too.
How do I get the jenolite off now though? It is set rock solid and wrapped around the pipe!
Do you have home insurance ? Leakage of pipework and damage to your property should be covered ?? I would go with your gut and get it replaced, when plumbing start to deteriorate and leaks occur you will find even if you solve one problem water will find the next weak point and your back to square one, patches and resins are only a temporary repair in my book. Kop
If it were me I'd probably go at it with a Dremel or pliers but if you can't get the resin off without further trashing the pipe then the only thing I can suggest is apply it over the top and hope. None of this is satisfactory of course, replacement of pipe or complete system renewel is best as you have concluded.
Drain the system before he arrives, he should be able to put in a new cross-over/bend at least even if it means doing a bit more excavating.
Hi Chuck
Yes we are 🙂 Lots of behind the scenes action on all forums so you may notice things like this until we get them sorted out.
Thanks Lou
What was the cause of the original leak? If pin-holed copper pipe, then likely to be much more widespread than just the point at which the leak occurred.
Yep. Pinhole leak on the inside bend of one of the connections. Plumber 3 cut a large length of new pipe and replaced it. No leaks now thankfully. We are getting the whole system replaced in the New Year as this is the second leak in pipes buried under the concrete floor, and I am not going through all this again lol
If you get a new system make sure NO pipes are reused. There was some very poor quality copper pipe around 30-40 years ago.
Thanks for the heads up. Had been thinking of keeping the upstairs ones in place as no issues there but maybe not the best idea then. 🤔
This old thread is very interesting....you all abused the original plumber for using compression fittings {which is fine if used correctly.The second best fitting to solder} Now you are all suggesting tape wire jb weld epoxy and every other bodge under the sun lol. You all judged too quickly. The job is a disaster and the correct remedy is replace the complete system.Rads are 40 plus years old ffs.
- Jun 28, 2007
- 3,088
- 1,253
- 113
- Member Type
- DIY or Homeowner
I'm sure you're having a nice beer now? Maybe?
But less of the arsey posts please mate. Rule 1 of the forum; be nice.
But less of the arsey posts please mate. Rule 1 of the forum; be nice.
Everybody agreed the best remedy would be to replace the pipework but it was the first plumber that was paid and left the leaks/his fix unresolved. The bodge recommendations (mainly from me) were for a relatively unskilled but willing home owner to get out of a temporary bind when no plumbers seemed to be immediately available.
Official Sponsors of Plumbers Talk
Similar plumbing topics
- Question
- Question
- Question
- Question
- Question
- Question
We recommend City Plumbing Supplies, BES, and Plumbing Superstore for all plumbing supplies.