Help and Advice on Gas Safe Engineer not registering installation with Gas Safe

[Raji]

Hello

i have a rental property which I had a gas safe certificate carried out in October 2012. in March 2013 I got a new boiler installed by a gas safe registered installer. The installer has yet to register the installation with gas safe who as i understand will notify my local council building control. I have contacted the engineer and they said they are doing it. i want to know what are the legal ramifications and am i compromising myself in terms of the safety of my tenants. I am not sure why this plumber is taking so long, i had another engineer do a boiler change at my own house and they did it all very quickly. Appreciate your help on this.

Cheers
Raji

 

[jtsplumbing]

What you need to watch is if the boiler was not commissioned and registered within a certain time some boiler manufactures will cancel any warranty this you need to find out, also engineer will have to come back and re-commission boiler in order to get your certificate

 

[Ermintrude]

Have you paid the installer? We don't register warranty until we have been paid. I believe that it's a contravention of the building regs not to notify local council.

It's a contravention of gas safety and use regulations to leave an un commissioned appliance connected to a gas supply. Also contravention not to leave customer with manufacturers instructions .

If the property has tenants in you are required to have a valid cp12. Business disputes are not an acceptable reason why not.

You would probably have a better chance of getting it sorted if you went to small claims court, installer hasn't completed contract. That is assuming you have told us the truth???

 

[stevetheplumber]

actually its the home owners responsibility to notify building control we always put on the estimate that we will notify via the gas safe sceme

 

[lame plumber]

Twas my understanding a new boiler doesnt need a cp12 in yr one as its new! so should be safe after all youll have done a tightness test and its just been commissioned, i now await some flames 🙂

 

[Ermintrude]

Twas my understanding a new boiler doesnt need a cp12 in yr one as its new! so should be safe after all youll have done a tightness test and its just been commissioned, i now await some flames 🙂

Think there are a few bits required by HSE / GS that are not on GS registration

(c)ensure that a record in respect of any appliance or flue so checked is made and retained for a period of 2 years from the date of that check, which record shall include the following information—

(i)the date on which the appliance or flue was checked;

(ii)the address of the premises at which the appliance or flue is installed;

(iii)the name and address of the landlord of the premises (or, where appropriate, his agent) at which the appliance or flue is installed;

(iv)a description of and the location of each appliance or flue checked;

(v)any defect identified;

(vi)any remedial action taken;

(vii)confirmation that the check undertaken complies with the requirements of paragraph (9) below;

(viii)the name and signature of the individual carrying out the check; and

(ix)the registration number with which that individual, or his employer, is registered with a body approved by the Executive for the purposes of regulation 3(3) of these Regulations.

And tenant has to be furnished with cert within 28days ( that's LL duty though)

Also L/L supposed to ask you for cert u don't have to issue one, they are responsible not u. As described in regs..... Duty on landlords.

 

[Raji]

Sorry i am a bit confused, the boiler is working and the engineer filled the benchmark after he installed it. What i am concerned about is the fact that I have not got the building compliance certificate. Does this null an void the default 12 month gas safe you get when a new boiler is installed. is this only valid with the building compliance certificate. if not what do I do in the meantime. Do i get another enginner to do a gas safety check and issue a certificate like normal.

 

[Raji]

And also the engineer never told me about building compliance requirement, I only found out after I got another engineer to quote for the other job and he said we will do this for you. Shouldn't good gas safe engineers make the client aware of this requirement?

 

[Ermintrude]

And also the engineer never told me about building compliance requirement, I only found out after I got another engineer to quote for the other job and he said we will do this for you. Shouldn't good gas safe engineers make the client aware of this requirement?

Unfortunately not. The duty is on the home owner and landlord. As a landlord you should understand your duties.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1998/2451/regulation/36/made

 

[Ermintrude]

So the engineer BM job? You haven't re employed him and he's refusing to register installation. What reason has he given for this?

 

[LPC]

Did you pay the engineer in cash? If you did, he wouldn't have registered the installation with building control so that there is no record of the work, and nothing to lead to the cash.

As far as I know though, it is the customers responsibility to register it with building control, but we (usually) do it anyway because it's cheap and easy.

 

[Reg Man]

Although it is the customers or responsible person for the properties responsibility to get building regulations compliance, it is the gas safe registered engineers duty under terms and conditions of registration to notify the boiler installation to GSR. Apart from the legal gas safety aspect of having to use a GSR installer the competent person scheme built into registration for certificating work is another reason for using the proper people for the job. I would advise you to contact the installer and have a friendly word and tell him that you will have to contact GSR and complain if he does not register the work.

 

[Raji]

Thankyou all for your input unfortunately it still does not answer the underlying question. The gas safe registered plumber has installed and commissioned the system in March 2013 (by commissioned i assume it means connecting it up and turning it on and filling up the benchmark in the manual). The boiler is in use at this time. Does he need to notify gas safe to make the installation in the eyes of the law gas safe (and thus giving me a years compliance on this appliance) or is it not required and the building compliance notification a completely separate thing in terms of the law. The bottom line is my current gas safe certificate has on it the gas hob and the old boiler. It is due to expire at the end of this month. Am i covered in terms of the law?

 

[Raji]

The regulations only say that
[h=2]if The appliance is less than a year old[/h]You should check it within 12 months of the installation date.

it does not say this is only valid if you have a buildings compliance certificate. I still need the certificate to satisfy building control but it seems that it is not a requirement in terms of gas safety? I dont want to put my tenants in jeopardy whilst im trying to get the certificate from the installer.

 

[Ermintrude]

The regulations only say that
[h=2]if The appliance is less than a year old[/h]You should check it within 12 months of the installation date.

it does not say this is only valid if you have a buildings compliance certificate. I still need the certificate to satisfy building control but it seems that it is not a requirement in terms of gas safety? I dont want to put my tenants in jeopardy whilst im trying to get the certificate from the installer.

What are reasons other bloke won't register?

You said it had been checked by another installer? If it wasn't safe he would have told you.

If that worried pay and get a cp12 £65 for peice of mind.

 

[Reg Man]

He has probably complied with the requirements of the gas safety (installation & use) regulations. Registering the work to building control is a slightly different requirement and would only become an issue if you sold the property and were asked for the certificate. I don't understand why the installer has not registered the boiler as it is cheap and simple to do so and keep everything above board and everyone happy.

 

[Raji]

Thanks for all your help guys much appreicated

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Twas my understanding a new boiler doesnt need a cp12 in yr one as its new! so should be safe after all youll have done a tightness test and its just been commissioned, i now await some flames 🙂

I am 100% certain Lame is totally correct on this.
IF the landlord employed a GSR engineer to install a boiler then it does not need to be on any CP12 for up to 12 months.
It will be included on the next landlord gas safety inspection report - when it is due.

The Gas engineer wlll ensure the installation was safe as per Gas Safety Regs - otherwise he could face being suspended from ding gas work and possible prison (in the worse case).

So even if you have no documentation but can just prove a GSR guy installed it I think you are covered as the landlord.

Notifying Gas Safe that the boiler was installed is a part of Building Regs so not just about safety. It should have been done - within 30 days , i think, and I think he does have a duty to register the install so you may have a fair complaint against the installer.
If you phone Gas Safe Register they will be able to tell you for definite.

But the installer is human - he may have had computer problems and other technical hurdles to cause delay this so try to get an assurance that he will just do it.

 

[Ermintrude]

go with mantra that when you purge and relight appliances and then check bp at appliances you record them. Boiler will need to be serviced within 12 months. Record checks and bosh in cp12. Records all the other checks you did during install.

Regs don't say "do not check and record your findings if appliance is less than 12 months old. "

 

[Raji]

A lady i spoke to at the HSE said that the buildings compliance certificate can be used to demonstrate the gas safety of the new appliance. She said that as i had not been issued one I would have to get a gas safety certificate done for the new boiler. If I had the certificate I could wait until my current CP12 expires before having to get a new one. I know i need to get the buildings compliance certificate but from a legal standpoint it is separate to the gas safety directive from the HSE.

 

[Ermintrude]

A lady i spoke to at the HSE said that the buildings compliance certificate can be used to demonstrate the gas safety of the new appliance. She said that as i had not been issued one I would have to get a gas safety certificate done for the new boiler. If I had the certificate I could wait until my current CP12 expires before having to get a new one. I know i need to get the buildings compliance certificate but from a legal standpoint it is separate to the gas safety directive from the HSE.

HSE are GS . GS is just HSE puppet operated by capita. You could call local building control and explain situation, but think they charge a lot to self cert. I wouldn't register another installers job on my number.

Can't you reason with installer original installer?

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

A lady i spoke to at the HSE said that the buildings compliance certificate can be used to demonstrate the gas safety of the new appliance. She said that as i had not been issued one I would have to get a gas safety certificate done for the new boiler. If I had the certificate I could wait until my current CP12 expires before having to get a new one. I know i need to get the buildings compliance certificate but from a legal standpoint it is separate to the gas safety directive from the HSE.

The HSE lady is wrong - you need evidence the gas boiler was installed by someone legally qualified to do so.
The building regs certificate does do that but it is not the only proof - the invoice by the engineer should suffice?
along with all the paper work he may have filled in.

These Building regs compliance certificates have only been issued for about 8 years or so.

But the Gas Safety Regs for landlords are 1998.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Finally, after sleeping on your original question for a while I remembered that when the building control certificates came in to force gas engineers were never obliged to be a part of that scheme. The obligation is on the home owner.

It just would make good financial sense for the home owner to find an engineer who could do that for them. And as gas installers it is an easy part of our routine that we just take it forgranted now.
To have a leg to stand on in the small claims court you must have it written in your contract that the engineer would notify building control - otherwise it is down to you and likely to be costly - you could telephone your local building control dept to find out.

 

[Ermintrude]

The HSE lady is wrong - you need evidence the gas boiler was installed by someone legally qualified to do so.
The building regs certificate does do that but it is not the only proof - the invoice by the engineer should suffice?
along with all the paper work he may have filled in.

These Building regs compliance certificates have only been issued for about 8 years or so.

But the Gas Safety Regs for landlords are 1998.

The GS cert issued would show that the LL had discharged his duties and employed a competent and qualified person in respect to GSIUR.

So would a CP12 issued at the time of installation. Has all required info on it.
LL is supposed to verify that credentials on documents marry up with identity of installer. ( badge

 

[lame plumber]

I only issue the building regs cert once Ive been paid in full, could this be the issue?

 

[PowerFlusher2]

Whatever you do you MUST address the problem (make the complaint) with Gas Safe Register within a year (assuming it remains unresolved) because after that time Gas Safe Register will not be interested. Within the 12 months they MIGHT be able to issue the certificate if they contact the installer and he confirms he did the job, and, of course, he remains a GSR. Why GSR can do no more than that is because they have no legal status and can take no other action than cancelling a GSR registration, but they WILL NOT do that because they then lose the membership fees. It is, actually, a criminal offence, since 2005, for a GSR NOT to register an installation he has completed but local building control will not pursue a case through the courts because an alternative method of acquiring the certificate is available if you pay them (GBP365.00p in our area) they will do the check, carry out the test and issue the certificate - and they might even use the GSR who did the job for you - if he is local - because they don't have any GSRs of their own! Obtaining the certificate, however, is the property owners problem. If the installer does the registration through GSR it costs him GBP2.50p. Absolutely LUDICROUS situation, isn't it?

 

[lame plumber]

not sure how not issung a building regs ticket can be a criminal offence! did their lordships introduce a act of parliment making it so recently, will the boys in blue be knocking on my door at dawn coz a farmer didnt want to pay me £2.50 for a ticket!!

 

[Reg Man]

If you do not follow the building control procedures set out for handling your building work or you carry out building work which does not comply with the requirements contained in the Building Regulations you will have contravened them. Failure to comply with the Building Regulations is a criminal offence and local authorities have the power to require the removal or alteration of completed work that does not comply with these requirements. The person carrying out work that contravenes the Building Regulations can be fined up to £5,000 per contravention, and £50 each day the contravention continues.

Can't see this ever happening, but who knows? (information is from the government portal)

 

[lame plumber]

if you install a boiler correctly how can anyone do you for not filling out a form thehouseholder is ultimately responsible for completing, all you can do is lose you gsr ticket for not complying with their policy!

 

[REDSAW]

i always get mine done within 6months!

 

[Reg Man]

if you install a boiler correctly how can anyone do you for not filling out a form thehouseholder is ultimately responsible for completing, all you can do is lose you gsr ticket for not complying with their policy!

Its the process driven world we live in.

 

[Ermintrude]

You may be surprised I had argument ( me - never) with gas safe about this , desk jockey at other end asked if he was competent ( as in gsr technical help) I said not sure , he assured me that he was more qualified than I, I asked if he was registered as an installer or had fga, he changed subject to how competence could be measured!
Gas safe is rubbish , slightly better than the old boys club Called corgi.

 

[Reg Man]

You may be surprised I had argument ( me - never) with gas safe about this , desk jockey at other end asked if he was competent ( as in gsr technical help) I said not sure , he assured me that he was more qualified than I, I asked if he was registered as an installer or had fga, he changed subject to how competence could be measured!
Gas safe is rubbish , slightly better than the old boys club Called corgi.

Don't go down this route you will be blown out of the water and sunk deeper than the Titanic.

 

[Ermintrude]

Ok point taken. Backing off toward the door.......

 

[Reg Man]

Ok point taken. Backing off toward the door.......

No problems mate. That's what the forums about.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

If you do not follow the building control procedures set out for handling your building work or you carry out building work which does not comply with the requirements contained in the Building Regulations you will have contravened them. Failure to comply with the Building Regulations is a criminal offence and local authorities have the power to require the removal or alteration of completed work that does not comply with these requirements. The person carrying out work that contravenes the Building Regulations can be fined up to £5,000 per contravention, and £50 each day the contravention continues.

I remember you posting a link to this ages ago - which shows that the person doing the work is responsible for making sure it complies with Building Regs.
Really useful.
BUT
Isn't it the homeowner who is responsible for notification?
Yes notifiable work MUST be notified - that is the law but I thought it wa the homeowners responsibility
but obviously heating installers offer this service as it is is cheap and easy to do it that way.

I have no time now to look up a reference for this but perhaps someone else can confirm one way or the other.

 

[Reg Man]

I remember you posting a link to this ages ago - which shows that the person doing the work is responsible for making sure it complies with Building Regs.
Really useful.
BUT
Isn't it the homeowner who is responsible for notification?
Yes notifiable work MUST be notified - that is the law but I thought it wa the homeowners responsibility
but obviously heating installers offer this service as it is is cheap and easy to do it that way.

I have no time now to look up a reference for this but perhaps someone else can confirm one way or the other.

Yes Tara your absolutely correct, it is ultimately the home owners responsibility, but that's one of the reasons it encourages them to use the proper registered trades people who can register the work for them. If they have gone down the correct route they should expect that work to be registered by the tradesman they have used.

 

[lame plumber]

it may be nothing, but our op has yet to answer the questions asked re did he pay the installer!!!!!!

 

[Ermintrude]

it may be nothing, but our op has yet to answer the questions asked re did he pay the installer!!!!!!

Yeh I kept hinting at this...,, suspicious really? Wouldn't ever say why. I know everyone falls on hard times but landlords and letting agents should always pay upfront !

 

[PowerFlusher2]

not sure how not issung a building regs ticket can be a criminal offence! did their lordships introduce a act of parliment making it so recently, will the boys in blue be knocking on my door at dawn coz a farmer didnt want to pay me £2.50 for a ticket!!

Not recently, on 1st April 2005 - surely Gas Safe tell you this as part of your update courses?

 

[lame plumber]

if anyone out there has ever been done by the boys in blue for not registering a boiler , do let us know, some how I dont expect any responses on this one 🙂

 

[PowerFlusher2]

if anyone out there has ever been done by the boys in blue for not registering a boiler , do let us know, some how I dont expect any responses on this one 🙂

On the very first page of their website the Gas Safe Register quite clearly states 'only a Gas Safe Qualified and Registered Installer can notify the installation of a gas appliance'. After that crystal clear statement, they then go on to say that 'where a Gas Safe Qualified and Registered Installer does not report a gas installation, the responsibility falls on the owner of the property' - who, we must assume is also Gas Safe Registered because 'ONLY' Gas Safe Registered Installers can notify gas installations.

So their own first correct interpretation of Bulding Control Regulations is contradicted by their second statement.

Use of the word LUDICROUS is fully justified here?

 

[vern]

I will cut to the chase, when the OP pays up, he might get a certificate, this question has been dodged more than once

 

[anz]

According to this its the RGE's responsibility and it should be done within 30 days.

 

[tamz]

Read words 5 6 and 7 of the first sentance. It don't apply up my way and if you read further it is not really the responsibility of the RGI. They just offer a service to make things easier.

if anyone out there has ever been done by the boys in blue for not registering a boiler , do let us know, some how I dont expect any responses on this one 🙂

No boys in blue but a few got pulled with the men with briefcases for listening to corgi /gas safe.
Personally i have never registered even as much as one boiler despite the threats from corgi ( i told them to gtf ) as i knew the consequences for some jobs ( "we will never disclose any details to anyone" was their cry) I'm not zipped up the back so why encourage them.
If i lived south of the border i may have done it different, but i don't.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Not recently, on 1st April 2005 - surely Gas Safe tell you this as part of your update courses?

2005 is recent - to me anyway, and I'm only 45.

I was also a landlady with tenants before the Gas Rags of 1998 required Annual Safety inspections - but as that was quite a while ago I don't think of it as recent anymore.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

If you look at
[DLMURL]https://engineers.User PlumbersForums.net Instead - Copy the content, don't link to it.co.uk/NotificationsFAQ.aspx[/DLMURL]
It says

4. Why is Gas Safe Register involved with the notification of Building Regulations compliance?The Building Regulations for England and Wales (Schedule 3; Self Certification Schemes and Exemptions from Requirements to Give Building Notice or Deposit Full Plans), make reference to 'the installation of a heat producing gas appliance' by'a person, or an employee of a person who is a member of a class of persons approved in accordance with Regulation 3 of the Gas Safety (Installation & Use) Regulations 1998'.
This means that Gas Safe registered engineers can operate under self certification for the installation of heat producing gas appliances. Therefore, Gas Safe Register (or one of its approved 3rd parties), is the only method by which gas work can be self certified.

To me this does NOT say Gas Engineers MUST notify.
I've looked though various BR documents aimed at the public and they aren't really clear.
And of course they are constantly changing ammeding BR - how annoying is that!

 

[Reg Man]

There are two separate issues here. The mandatory requirement under the gas regulations to be a member of a class of persons to carry out gas work, which is your responsibility. The requirement to notify LABC for the installation of fixed heat producing appliances, which is the customers responsibility. To make life easier for building control, they have put trust in the industry for those qualified people to allow them to self certificate their own work for building regulations compliance through a system of competent person schemes, which GSR run in parallel to the mandatory gas registration. So that when a customer goes into a contract with an installer to have a boiler installed the installer can get the relevant compliance notice issued without the customer having to go through the arduous expensive process of dealing directly with building control. I think the biggest issue here is why the customer has to achieve building regulation compliance for this type of work in the first place? Is it just another unnecessary system in a complicated over regulated world we live in, or does it serve a constructive valuable purpose? Personally I think it does serve one purpose only, in as much that it proves that the system has been installed by an approved installer, further than this I can not see any benefit. So why can't the benchmark log satisfy the requirement without having all this added expense for both customer and installer? After all its only another bit of paper that does not really mean that much.

 

[Ermintrude]

Never seen a landlord that fussed about bits of paper before or that interested in paying for what he got. Probably bumped installer, letting agent wants cp12 or its a HMO job and environmental health asked ll for Certs, he has only got a brown stain in his kegs ?

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

.... does it serve a constructive valuable purpose? Personally I think it does serve one purpose only, in as much that it proves that the system has been installed by an approved installer, further than this I can not see any benefit. So why can't the benchmark log satisfy the requirement without having all this added expense for both customer and installer? After all its only another bit of paper that does not really mean that much.

I think it is supposed to prove that the installation complies with building regs - not only will it be HE A rated boiler installed but it will have the necessary controls and zones.
We know that this is nonsense.
Engineers pay the £2.50 and register the boilers with gas safe even when the installation does not come up to current Building Regs.
And loads of "budget" installations are not to current B Regs.

People don't understand the Regs (including heating engineers who are supposed to implement them) - not surprising when the keep changing!
There is no incentive to comply with building regs - because it makes our quote more expensive and most families want the cheaper option.

eg. Good to advise people that TRVs , controls, zones, etc might benefit them and save them money but making it compulsory and therefore more expensive to have a simple boiler replacement is not good.

Personallly I think the B.R. in relation to heating is a mess - a pain for small business heating engineers - like us.

 

[Raji]

The installer was paid promptly and in full.

 

[Ermintrude]

So what's his reasoning for not complying with reasonable request

 

[PowerFlusher2]

There are two separate issues here. The mandatory requirement under the gas regulations to be a member of a class of persons to carry out gas work, which is your responsibility. The requirement to notify LABC for the installation of fixed heat producing appliances, which is the customers responsibility. To make life easier for building control, they have put trust in the industry for those qualified people to allow them to self certificate their own work for building regulations compliance through a system of competent person schemes, which GSR run in parallel to the mandatory gas registration. So that when a customer goes into a contract with an installer to have a boiler installed the installer can get the relevant compliance notice issued without the customer having to go through the arduous expensive process of dealing directly with building control. I think the biggest issue here is why the customer has to achieve building regulation compliance for this type of work in the first place? Is it just another unnecessary system in a complicated over regulated world we live in, or does it serve a constructive valuable purpose? Personally I think it does serve one purpose only, in as much that it proves that the system has been installed by an approved installer, further than this I can not see any benefit. So why can't the benchmark log satisfy the requirement without having all this added expense for both customer and installer? After all its only another bit of paper that does not really mean that much.

It all comes down to money, the amount the LA can rip-off the homeowner for the process of getting the installation BC approval!