Help appreciated for back boiler ventilation problem

[MAG]

Hi there,

I really hope someone can help me.

I am a tenant in a mid-terrace property with a back boiler (approx 15 years old) situated behind the gas fire in the living room. There is a floor vent of 100cm2 near to the fire and boiler and two brick vents on the outside under the living room window.

I had Scottish Gas in yesterday to fix some leaky radiators and was issued with an "At Risk" notice for the boiler due to insufficient ventilation and switched off my heating. Reasons given were as follows:-

1) Vents on the outside were not of the appropriate size and condition i.e. holes taper inwards so difficult to gauge size and there is some debris in the holes
2) Floor vent indoors should not just be in contact with the free space under the house, it should actually be connected by pipe (ducted?) direct to the outdoor vent because (a) it is a midterraced property so other houses may use the same vents for free air and (b) because of the age of the house there could be a blockage under the house that is stopping the free circulation of the air.

I have spoken to my Landlord and he is refusing to believe the above. I also had some really nice plumbers out today who were a bit dubious about the situation as well and wanted to make calls before they decided if the appliance is really at risk or just NCS.

Can anyone clarify if this set up sounds AR? I'm paying a lot of rent to this guy and with a baby I really want to have clarification before turning the heating back on.

Thanks in advance.

Janice

 

[diamondgas]

Hi Janice and :welcome: to the forum!

Truth ....... ! It is your Landlords responsibility to make sure you are safe! ...... Reality is the appliance is 15yrs+ and I'm assuming no one has died of carbonmonoxide poisoning yet? Without having 1st hand knowledge its not one to call to be honest!

BG err on the side of legalities! So are right if they've proven you have less than 90% of the required appliance ventilation! That's our rules! 100cm is a lot of boiler though IMHO!

 

[MAG]

Thanks for your quick response Diamondgas 🙂

Assuming that the outside vents mean that there is less than 90% of the required appliance ventilation, would it be possible for the LL to replace these with more suitable vents? If so, is the situation about ducting true? Would the vents have to be joined by pipe because of the characteristics of the property, i.e. old and mid-terraced? Or is it sufficient to have the floor vent only accessing the air under the house?

Sorry, I'm just trying to get my head around this with a newborn in the house 🙂

 

[diamondgas]

Ducting is, I believe, a 'have to have' under floor unfortunately! The guy is really covering his backside unfortunately! BUT as I'm not testing your appliance I couldn't call it! At the end of the day you, as the responsible person, must decide whether you are willing to turn your boiler back on as is or get on to your Landlord to make your installation safe! I'll emphasise that it is your Landlord who is responsible for your safety! Let them take the grief IMO!

regards having a newborn or a grandparent in the home doesn't make much difference to be honest. 24hr tesco's sell fan heaters! That isn't meant as an insult just a fact, if you're concerned about your child's welfare then alternative forms of heat are available 🙂 That sounds so condescending! i hope you don't take it that way 🙂 It can be frustrating when something you've lived with without any problems all of a sudden is no longer there for you 🙂

 

[desrob]

ducting to out side air makes sense,i had some thing similar and was under the impression the ventilation path is clear and connecting vent is sized accordingly

 

[hydrotherm]

Not worth messing around with borderline sub floor ventilation! If I were your landlord I would fit a new Stadium Black hole ventilator and CO alarm for safe measure.No brainer with a baby in the house.

 

[MAG]

Thanks guys. Diamondgas - of course not, I am just so grateful for the advice.

Tbh, I've only just moved into the house and hate it as it's been one thing after another with it.

I found a gas inspection report from Scottish Gas that is dated 3 weeks before I moved in deeming the boiler to be at risk due to ventilation and the LL went ahead with the rental anyway.

The guys out today seemed to think that as the boiler had been functioning for the last 15 years then it would not be required to be ducted to the outside vents - it was sufficient enough to have access to the air under the house provided the outside vents were of the appropriate size.

Hmm. I'm thinking I def need to go get a 3rd opinion myself as the LL is refusing to discuss!

 

[diamondgas]

Hey MAG .. end of the day if i turned up to a house with the correct sized ventilation grille fitted to the floor it would still be Not To Current Standards because standards require it to be ducted! I can not change the size of your vent without ducting it, as standards request! However homes with the correct size ventilation using 'underfloor' are safe to leave on but do not adhere to todays regulations! Your landlord however is not taking on board to their responsibilities IMO.

 

[MAG]

Ok so the plot thickens! The LL has informed me that the vent in the living room was only fitted in September last year so by fitting this without ducting was not meeting current standards?

Sorry, if I'm being dozy here. If the outside vents are to be replaced with those of a suitable size would they then need to be ducted also?

Thanks a million 🙂

 

[stevetheplumber]

i just want to ask when this need for ducting came in? i dont recall seeing anything about it

 

[diamondgas]

i just want to ask when this need for ducting came in? i dont recall seeing anything about it

Got to get kirkgas in on this reagards regs steve IMHO Without looking it up it sits prominent in "WTH"! lol one of those strange rules that all of a sudden became FACT I believe, unless I read it wrong when it was around! lol ...

 

[REDSAW]

is that, tapered holes on exterior vent brick containing debris=ncs
and non ducted floor vent=ncs=====a.r.?.

did they perform a spillage and flue test on the appliance?.

 

[MAG]

Yesterday, they were out to repair the radiators and so other than inspecting the outside vents and the inside vent, they didn't do anything to the boiler. They gave me a certificate and letter saying "At Risk - Insufficient Ventilation". I have copies of previous years servicing reports and each states "At Risk - Ventilation" and "NCS - Flue".

He explained that he had come to this conclusion by taking into account the factors I mentioned in the opening post.

As far as I'm aware, the LL used a builder to put in the vent in September, SG said "At Risk - Vents" again regardless of the new vent and when it was put out to rent, the letting agents received a report from their plumber stating all was ok. I found the paperwork from September stating "At Risk", the same letting agent contractor came out and said all was ok again. Then yesterday, the SG engineer hit me with the letter.

Needless to say I'm extremely concerned!

 

[diamondgas]

MAG --- Are you the landlord?

 

[MAG]

Nope definitely not. I just want to know what I'm dealing with as I have a baby in the house and the Landlord has been nothing but difficult about this whole situation and every other situation we've been face with since moving in.

When I moved in, there was a drawer with manuals etc for white goods, a SG homecare agreement and a bundle of SG reports from the last few years but no paperwork as to the remedial work carried out in terms of the floor vent. I received an email tonight from the letting agents giving me the gas inspection report that I should have received months ago and the information that the vent was installed in September.

 

[diamondgas]

Nope definitely not. I just want to know what I'm dealing with as I have a baby in the house and the Landlord has been nothing but difficult about this whole situation and every other situation we've been face with since moving in.

When I moved in, there was a drawer with manuals etc for white goods, a SG homecare agreement and a bundle of SG reports from the last few years but no paperwork as to the remedial work carried out in terms of the floor vent. I received an email tonight from the letting agents giving me the gas inspection report that I should have received months ago and the information that the vent was installed in September.

End of the day you have been left without any form of heating or hot water which is up to the Leting Agent to maintain on behalf of the landlord! Do some googling on tenatnt rights! You'll be amazed 🙂 Letting agents in my experience are *.............*

 

[MAG]

I've drafted a letter with regards to this tonight. When I was cut off by SG yesterday at 1pm, the Letting Agents contacted the Landlord who refused to provide emergency heating as he didn't have enough time to arrange it. The guys today said they'd be happy to switch the heating back on but would not confirm in writing that it was safe to use until tomorrow so I respectfully refused. So, still no heating, a grand total of 4 pairs of socks gracing my tootsies and a baby in bed with 3 layers of clothing on :icon9:.

I am still concerned about using it though if it is "at risk". The guys out today were great but are from the same company that gave the letting agent the go ahead to rent so worried that they're not impartial? Think I'm going to go ahead with another opinion as would really like to know if the inside vent fitted in September should have been ducted as the SG plumber explained.

Thanks for all your help :cheesy:

 

[REDSAW]

try getting some legal advice.
call gas safe they are keen on vent requirements as it sounds to me it has been issued numerous times as 'at risk' installation and this seems to have been clearly ignored by the l.l or letting agent..
someone is being pressured into o.k' ing after a.r ing.

it is common for l.l. to discard warning labels and un-cap gas meter which is illegal. this will cause them to dig up supportive evidence or act.

 

[tamz]

There is no need to duct a vent under a floor UNLESS there is a risk of radon gas or the space below the floor communicates with another property.
Radon is unlikely in Scotland and someone would need to physically check there was no holes under the floor to next door.
If you have more than 2 or 3 x 9" x 3" (most houses have more than that) vents around the building you will have enough vent to the solumn.
The SG guy is just CHA as he is not sure.
To alleviate any doubt get a vent cored through the wall.

 

[MAG]

Great advice. Thanks.

Spoken to Gas Safe this morning and they said that both companies are right in saying the appliance isn't safe but just differ in their categorizations. He said personally he would class the venting as NCS. However, when I also mentioned that the Flue is NCS he said this would escalate it to AR. Is this the case regardless of the age of the boiler? My letting agents are saying that as the boiler is 15+ years old this rule does not apply and the NCS+NCS = AR only applies with new appliances. So I am perfectly safe to be using the boiler and should disregard the SG notice.

 

[Mike Jackson]

The Gas industry Unsafe Situations Procedure states that 2 NCS situations on flueing and ventilation is likely to increase the risk and list situations where the combination is classed as AR. Age of an appliance has nothing to do with the classification although as an appliance gets older it is more likely to develop faults that may compromise the safety as it will not have the latest safety devices fitted.

 

[P4ULT]

am i missing something or can a 5"core vent be fitted and problem solved

 

[MAG]

Exactly P4ault. However, the landlord is refusing to do this as he doesn't "need to".

The plumbers who were out yesterday have contacted the letting agent and told them that the appliance is safe to use despite knowing that there is an NCS Vent and NCS Flue. However, they are refusing to give me a written report of their inspection yesterday confirming this. They only said they stand by an inspection they done in September. I'm a bit worried as it is the same company that gave the ok for renting so I can't see them turning round and saying it's At Risk now.

Gas Safe have informed me this morning that to them this would elevate the appliance to At Risk as per the GIUSP Ed 6. However, they have then told the letting agents that this is up to the engineers discretion?

At a loss as to what to do now especially in the absence of having a report overriding SGs AR notice.

Think I may have to go ahead and pay £45 for another company to do a gas safety inspection.

Guess I'm just more disappointed that the letting agents, landlord and the contractors are taking the chance rather than putting in a Stadium Core Vent especially with having a young baby in the house.

 

[P4ULT]

The landlord does not really have a choice if it's deemed AR then it is either turned back on at your risk or the required work is carried out push them to have the vent done. The only other bit of advice I can give is to gey a carbon monoxide detector regardless of the outcome.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

i agree get a carbon monoxide detector fitted

 

[MAG]

Thanks P4ault - it's appreciated. Definitely a no go for the vent as they are refusing due to contractors report of "safe to use" despite NCS Vents and NSC Flue.

 

[MAG]

Oh and we've ordered a digital CO alarm tonight. It just angers me because I've got no written report saying it's safe after inspection so I've been left with the decision of turning it back on or having myself and baby freezing in the house over the weekend.

 

[P4ULT]

If you don't mind me asking how long have you lived there. If the landlord won't do it (tight sod) if it's been no problem for you then it should be ok although not an ideal situation.

 

[MAG]

No I don't mind at all. We've only been there about 5 months. It was AR when we moved in according to SG but we only found out after we had moved in, the contractor came out and said it was fine (again no paperwork) and then we got an AR notice again from SG. This house has so many issues and this is just the latest!!!

 

[MAG]

Oh and maybe a silly question here. Even though the appliance is old, if a new floor vent was put in in September should that have been ducted or is ducting only required if it's a new appliance?

 

[kirkgas]

Thanks P4ault - it's appreciated. Definitely a no go for the vent as they are refusing due to contractors report of "safe to use" despite NCS Vents and NSC Flue.

right, this is the way to go with it:
1 phone the letting agent and inform them you are contacting HSE via Gas Safe to reprt them for putting you and the baby at risk bt knowingly putting you at risk by putting you in a house with an AR siutation (THIS IS NOT TO BE DEBATED AND IS FACT, WHICH YOU CAN AND WILL PROVE NO PROBLEM), it isnt your fault the letting agent uses an incompetant as a subbie, also at this point advise him he is in direct violation of the Tenancy Act Scotland by not taking all reasonable steps to minimise risk to you, (when the problem was first advised to him he has a "resonable time" to effect repairs, he is way past that

2 contact the gas contractor and ask for an email address of the MD or most senior person, tell them you MUST get an email address as you intend to use the emails in the upcoming court case that you are about to instigate against the letting agent and the contractor,
communicate with ONLY the most senior person and ONLY by email, (they hate this and will be sweating by now!!!!)
once you email the big boss tell him/her in no uncertain terms that your lawyer has indicated that the contractors actions have contravened the 1998 GSI&U Regulations as they have been incompetant by improperly classifying NCS faults as defined in the IUP (Industry Unsafe Procedures) and as such have failed in their mandatory obligation to protect you. tell them as a Gas Safe Registered firm they have left themselves wide open to action by Gas Safe Inspector and to a lot of grief, and IF they would like to reinspect and classify as AR immediately which will push the letting agent to act as they must do then you may consider holding the lawyer back (although your lawyer has advised you that you have a very strong case for suing them) and to aveliate the stress and discomfort to you and the baby (and to ensure there is no lawyers letter at all meaning no claim) that in the position of most senior person of the company you are sure they have the authority to instruct an engineer to fire along to your property and fit a stadium black hole vent of a suitable size, and to do a spillage test on your appliance for a total cost of about £60 odd quid to the firm, then to get reimbursed by the landlord if they can, that you are sure they will agree £60 will be way less than a few rounds of lawyers letters and deffo way short of the manpower they will have to spend placating Gas Safe and again way less than the cost of ensuring their engineers actually know what they are doing (although they should consider doing this anyway)
right im not reading all that back cause i was on a mission there, but if you get the jist of it get into them, if not PM me and i will discuss it in detail, go down this route, be bold, dont waver and they will bottle it and someone will be round to sort it, its a no-brainer for them as the other costs will run into many £100's,
PS then tell the contactors boss you know a guy who will sort them out with some cheap refresher training for their guys as an inhouse project to ensure they dont get him in this position again ;-)

 

[kirkgas]

Oh and maybe a silly question here. Even though the appliance is old, if a new floor vent was put in in September should that have been ducted or is ducting only required if it's a new appliance?

age of appliance is not an issue, ducting is required if the vent communicates with more than one property, which can only be confirmed by lifting the floor and checking, which wont take long to do but to be fair to the contractor it isnt in their remit to start ripping up floors as the letting agent wont pay them for the work they are meant to be doing never mind extras
what area are you in?

 

[tamz]

THIS IS NOT TO BE DEBATED AND IS FACT, WHICH YOU CAN AND WILL PROVE NO PROBLEM

I really hate to disagree with you here Kirk BUT the escalation of 2 NCS's to AR is at the discretion and judgement of the engineer based on the past history of the operation of the appliance.
The vent is debatable and the NCS fluing (if it is a bbu) will at worst be sealing at catchment area of either pipe routes or the bottom of the flue. For the flueing to be given an ncs must mean it does not effect combustion. Is it really an AR? Who knows because none of us have actually seen it.

To the OP.
Get someone independent from the landlord or letting agency to come in and check and do a report in your favour and rectify as they see fit then claim it back from your landlord by deducting the bill from the rent.

OR smash a windy (joke) :smile:

 

[kirkgas]

I really hate to disagree with you here Kirk BUT the escalation of 2 NCS's to AR is at the discretion and judgement of the engineer based on the past history of the operation of the appliance.
The vent is debatable and the NCS fluing (if it is a bbu) will at worst be sealing at catchment area of either pipe routes or the bottom of the flue. For the flueing to be given an ncs must mean it does not effect combustion. Is it really an AR? Who knows because none of us have actually seen it.


To the OP.
Get someone independent from the landlord or letting agency to come in and check and do a report in your favour and rectify as they see fit then claim it back from your landlord by deducting the bill from the rent.



OR smash a windy (joke) :smile:

Tam, the bit im getting at is the letting agents contractor saying its safe, therefore giving the agent a get out clause, i re-read it and it was a bit of a manic rant haha

 

[tamz]

Tam, the bit im getting at is the letting agents contractor saying its safe, therefore giving the agent a get out clause,

That is the problem with using associated companies who "may" have the LL interests at heart. Best to get an independent to check and rectify. It's probably easier and quicker to fix than write out the paperwork.

We all like a wee rant now and again:whatchutalkingabout:lol: