Mains Cold Water Supply - Think I had a cowboy plumber at my house !

[IATM]

Hi Guys,

I have had various plumbing issues in my house after having a few plumbers in and I cant seem to find one who knows what they are doing or how to fix issues so I have decided to investigate them one by one and fix them myself or tell the plumber what to do.

Roughly a year agoI had a leak in the mains cold water supply tap/stopcock under the kitchen sink - this got worse and worse and eventually we have a plumber in to "fix" this - he spent 2 hours apparently fixing it but said we could not open it full as that was not a good idea/good practice ....

This "not a good idea" he fobbed my parents off with I realize now was proboably because if you turn the stopcock more than half approx it starts to leak which leads me to think he diddnt fix it properly as he should have done and took 300 quid off me for the pleasure of doing.

Can you correct me if I am wrong but I should have the ability to turn it full to benefit from the full mains pressure ( I think this is having an affect in the upstairs gravity fed system I have in the two bathrooms)

any links to quality stopcocks etc I can use to tell the plumber to fix and any other notes when fixing this issue.

I would be really grateful for any help as I just can't seem to find anyone who can say yes thats the issue this is what it will be to fix it 🙁

happy to provide pics if need be

Thanks

 

[chris watkins]

Pics please, what area are you ?

 

[hunterseye]

I believe its good practise when its open fully just to turn it back slightly to help prevent seizing up when not being used. But should be able to turn more than half way.

 

[Cumbria Handyma]

You should be able to turn your stopcock fully open and should not have any leaks. It is good practice though to open it fully and then close it half to one turn.

£300 for a couple of hours work is a bit steep.

 

[SimonG]

Sounds like the gland nut just needed repacking, but without having seen it cannot say. As already said, open fully and turn back slightly. Shouldn't affect gravity supplies unless the tanks can't refill quick enough. You still have mains pressure, just restricted flow.

 

[Plum Bob 66]

Hi Guys,

I have had various plumbing issues in my house after having a few plumbers in and I cant seem to find one who knows what they are doing or how to fix issues so I have decided to investigate them one by one and fix them myself or tell the plumber what to do.

Roughly a year agoI had a leak in the mains cold water supply tap/stopcock under the kitchen sink - this got worse and worse and eventually we have a plumber in to "fix" this - he spent 2 hours apparently fixing it but said we could not open it full as that was not a good idea/good practice ....

This "not a good idea" he fobbed my parents off with I realize now was proboably because if you turn the stopcock more than half approx it starts to leak which leads me to think he diddnt fix it properly as he should have done and took 300 quid off me for the pleasure of doing.

Can you correct me if I am wrong but I should have the ability to turn it full to benefit from the full mains pressure ( I think this is having an affect in the upstairs gravity fed system I have in the two bathrooms)

any links to quality stopcocks etc I can use to tell the plumber to fix and any other notes when fixing this issue.

I would be really grateful for any help as I just can't seem to find anyone who can say yes thats the issue this is what it will be to fix it 🙁

happy to provide pics if need be

Thanks

Gee, £300 this guys not a plumber hes a conman, get in touch with trading standards. What was his name Dick Turpin ??

I change one today charges £45, going by your post Ive obviously got it badly wrong ??

Bob

 

[glenno1]

£300,where do you live?im coming to work in your area

 

[IATM]

Hi Guys,

Really grateful for all the quick replies. Yes I think he came in and took advantage of my mum n dad and thought (rub the hands together). From the last time I touched the mains supply I turned it open enough so that it stopped making the noise of the water pushing through (my mum stopped me from turning it again and again as she said the plumber said not to do this as it would leak) - my first thought was should he not have bloody fixed that then!

putting that aside what is this glandnut and how to go about repacking it. ( I will get a picture up this evenining of what he fitted on - looks like a piece lego piece but I don't pretend to know what it is or if its any good)

Simon G I know you mentioned this shouldnt affect the system however I am inclined to think so because a bathroom fitter came round recently and I said to him about the low pressure in both bathrooms upstairs and I suggested it happened when the taps were changed etc but after having a quick look he said he was inclined to think there was an issue in the system somewhere. His reasons for this was when the toilet was flushed it only trickled back in to fill up in both bathrooms and the taps are shockingly bad. I tried to do a rough flow rate last night and got 7 litres per minute (that was from the bath taps - is that any good?)

 

[IATM]

my dad then called a different plumber about 6 months ago to fit the piping in to have a shower fitted - the piping to the floorboard was 22m so the plumber decides fit 15mm to the wall to fit a shower - I looked at this and knew this was wrong and asked my dad to call him back and find out why he done this as it must restrict the flow. (long story short the guy never bothered to get back to us)

at the moment the reason why I think I have a problem is because before all the plumbers came in, I had geat pressure everwhere and no issues at all, just wanted newer bathrooms 🙁

PS. I am in Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland - Beleive me if he tried to charge me that when I was there id tell him to sling his hook - I tend to always ask for quotes etc and have prices set etc when possible.

 

[SimonG]

Hi Guys,

Really grateful for all the quick replies. Yes I think he came in and took advantage of my mum n dad and thought (rub the hands together). From the last time I touched the mains supply I turned it open enough so that it stopped making the noise of the water pushing through (my mum stopped me from turning it again and again as she said the plumber said not to do this as it would leak) - my first thought was should he not have bloody fixed that then!

putting that aside what is this glandnut and how to go about repacking it. ( I will get a picture up this evenining of what he fitted on - looks like a piece lego piece but I don't pretend to know what it is or if its any good)

Simon G I know you mentioned this shouldnt affect the system however I am inclined to think so because a bathroom fitter came round recently and I said to him about the low pressure in both bathrooms upstairs and I suggested it happened when the taps were changed etc but after having a quick look he said he was inclined to think there was an issue in the system somewhere. His reasons for this was when the toilet was flushed it only trickled back in to fill up in both bathrooms and the taps are shockingly bad. I tried to do a rough flow rate last night and got 7 litres per minute (that was from the bath taps - is that any good?)

Sounds as though there is a lot going on. It all depends on the type of system that is operating your bathrooms. Are the toilets not mains fed? You say the pressure became worse after taps where changed, to me that sounds like gravity supplies and new taps that require high pressure.

You need to get somebody in that knows what they are doing, bit too far for me 🙂 , hopefully there will be somebody on here who is close enough to assist.

Could try posting a requirement in the 'I need a plumber' section.

 

[IATM]

HI simon G - I suspect it is gravity fed but im not sure tbh - from what i can see i have a hot water tank in airing cupboard, cold water tank in loft etc- its a detached 4 bed house. just a typical set up from what i gather from the information on the net. i suspect the taps arent great and it would be better to get taps that accomodate 0.2 bar min pressure etc but still its really poor and it diddnt used to be. please find the pics of what was done under the kitchen sink

 

[jtsplumbing]

Looking at the pics, you have 22mm stopcock ! can't see what if anything has been done to it, you may find the problem with your water flow is the check valve just above it, either partly block'd with dirt or not opening fully, would be a simple job to replace both, Around £20/£30 for parts £45 labour ! £300.00 for what look' s like nothing has been done ! except you is taking the mick Ask for your money back.

 

[SimonG]

With jts on this, I was expecting something out of the ark 🙂 , but there appears nothing too taxing there.

 

[IATM]

Looking at the pics, you have 22mm stopcock ! can't see what if anything has been done to it, you may find the problem with your water flow is the check valve just above it, either partly block'd with dirt or not opening fully, would be a simple job to replace both, Around £20/£30 for parts £45 labour ! £300.00 for what look' s like nothing has been done ! except you is taking the P*** Ask for your money back.

Lol hi jst plumbing. just a quick question. what the hell is the blue thing? Just asked my mum again exactly what the guy done. he changed the stopcock and washer apparently and it stilled leaked so gave some bs about not utnring it on fully so it doesnt leak. i suspect he diddnt do it properly as i should be able to turn it full without a dam leak.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Lol hi jst plumbing. just a quick question. what the hell is the blue thing? Just asked my mum again exactly what the guy done. he changed the stopcock and washer apparently and it stilled leaked so gave some bs about not utnring it on fully so it doesnt leak. i suspect he diddnt do it properly as i should be able to turn it full without a dam leak.

The blue thing is your water main ! Looking at the pics the stopcock do's-not look like it has been taken apart even the marks around the packing gland dont seam to have been touched, I think you have been conn'd ! i mean £300.00 for a washer.!!

 

[jtsplumbing]

Sorry just read your reply again , if thats a new stopcock I will give up Plumbing ! Unless you can buy them with that used look so that it blends in with the older plumbing !!

 

[IATM]

*deeeppp sigh** - This was almost 2-3 months back but even then I suspected the guy took the biscuit.

Right I can have that looked at ASAP properly under my watch - The pressure upstairs is the real mystery tbh, both hot and cold pressure is very low, from basin taps I get 3L per min and from tub taps i get 7L per min

I remember few months ago I turned everything off as a kitchen tap were faulty so was rpelacing that, when I turned everything back on the hot water was quite murky and certainly had a brown tint to it - wondering if the system is dirty and it just needs a good clean - if thats even possible.

Just wanted to say thanks for everyone esp Simon G and JSTplumbing for helping out.

 

[IATM]

Sorry just read your reply again , if thats a new stopcock I will give up Plumbing ! Unless you can buy them with that used look so that it blends in with the older plumbing !!

LOLLL You know what I diddnt even click on to that !!!! TBH at the time my dad was in hospital very unwell and I used to work and then go stay with him at the hospital and only come home every now and then to make sure brother, sister n mum were ok - mum mentioned this to me in passing and with everything else going on she mentioned there was a leak and it was "fixed" - i diddnt bother after that.

 

[Dotty]

Lol hi jst plumbing. just a quick question. what the hell is the blue thing? Just asked my mum again exactly what the guy done. he changed the stopcock and washer apparently and it stilled leaked so gave some bs about not utnring it on fully so it doesnt leak. i suspect he diddnt do it properly as i should be able to turn it full without a dam leak.

The blue thing is an mdpe (blue plastic pipe) to copper straight. And you have been royally raped. In front of a paying audience!

If he couldn't repair the stop valve he should've replaced it.

 

[Dotty]

Doh! I just read he claimed he had!

 

[mountainman]

There has got to be one of the members of this forum in your neck of the woods who can sort you out.
It's hard to believe how badly this alleged plumber has behaved.

 

[IATM]

yeah its not great - Going to call this bathroom fitter I am talking to at the moment to see if he has enough experience in this stuff and if not can he recommend someone - at the same time I think I will post up a quick thread in the plumber required section steven G mentioned with my fingers crossed - hopefully they can help with the pressure upstairs. - I thought a quick resolution might have been to fit a pressure pump on.......... not read up much on them though to make a decision

 

[Millsy 82]

Do you have a stop tap out in the road if so just get somebody to swap the internal stopcock and have a look at the check valve.

The pressure to the bathrooms could possibly be air in the system still from where they drained to fit taps.

 

[mountainman]

The solution to your problem is certainly not rocket science.
One advantage of using a forum member is that you have a superb guarantee inasmuch as you can comment on the quality of the service you receive.

 

[AWheating]

just to clarify what hot water system do you have? cylinder and tanks in the loft?

its sounds like the plumber did not change the stop tap, you may have some dirt blocking some taps and the bathroom fitter fitted high pressure mixer taps on a low pressure system. Im sorry you have had such poor service from so called tradesmen.

what type of shower is fitted? most shower dont require a 22mm supply to them.

 

[IATM]

just to clarify what hot water system do you have? cylinder and tanks in the loft?

its sounds like the plumber did not change the stop tap, you may have some dirt blocking some taps and the bathroom fitter fitted high pressure mixer taps on a low pressure system. Im sorry you have had such poor service from so called tradesmen.

what type of shower is fitted? most shower dont require a 22mm supply to them.

Hi AWHeating,

In all honesty I could not tell you 100% exactly what hot water system I have I am happy to go check if you can point me in the right direction.

I agree with you it appears the mains stopcock was not changed so that is my first step in ensuring my water system in the house is all back up to top notch.

Thanks for the kind words, it has been a pain - its not even a money issue as I dont mind saving up etc or spending the money if it means the issue is fixed but no one seemed to be able to/want to do it.

We intended to fit a electric shower in my main bathroom so we asked a plumber to come in and put the fitting in place so that an electric shower can be fitted - after we had the work done our electrician decided to advise us that its not recommended to have two electric showers in one house - thats a whole different story so thats why I am thinking if I can get the pressure issue resolved I have have a half decent low pressure mixer installed - I hope

In regards to the set up - I have a hot water tank in the airing cupboard - cold water tank in the loft - something in the garage (white box) normal central heating system - its a new ish build detached house approx 10 years old - sorry this is all new to me and just been reading up on it over the last week or so and I don't want to pretend I know what I am talking about either lol.

any other information I can provide - what surprises me is firstly the pressure was great before two possible factors - the mains plumbing screw around and changing of bathroom suit in en suite

second question that makes me ponder is that both the hot and cold in both upstairs bathrroms of are very poor flow/pressure so makes me think it has to do with either the flow from the tank in the loft/airing cupboard or the system in general.

I am pondering on ways to try and locate it to a specific part of the system but no ideas come to mind as of yet. I suspect the taps are a key thing to do with it as I check under the sink earlier on and the flexi hose pipes are stupidly long that they are in a very big S shape and paired up with the fact that these taps probably require a min of 0.5 bar pressure that its just rubbish

thats just my 2 pence

 

[AWheating]

the house is to young really to have gravity cold supplys fitted to anything, i would suggest the best course of action is to flush the main testing its performance, replace the stop tap and non return under the sink on the main and then checking the fixtures like the float valves for dirt etc..... the poor hot water peerformance is most likely down to the taps fitted. 10m equals 1 bar so to get 0.5 bar to a upstairs tap you need the tank in the loft to be 5m above the tap if that helps give you a better understanding.

 

[Dannypipe]

This is why plumbers get a bad name. A few bad uns spoil it for all the decent, hard working and honest tradesmen out there.

This is basic plumbing and he's ripped you off.

I almost pity the next guy who comes to change the valve. You will be watching him like a hawk and questioning everything. I can't say I'd blame you either.

 

[AWheating]

This is why plumbers get a bad name. A few bad uns spoil it for all the decent, hard working and honest tradesmen out there.

This is basic plumbing and he's ripped you off.

I almost pity the next guy who comes to change the valve. You will be watching him like a hawk and questioning everything. I can't say I'd blame you either.

i could not sleep at night knowing id charged £300 for 2 hours work in which i had neither done anything or fixed the problem. 🙁

 

[chris watkins]

This is why plumbers get a bad name. A few bad uns spoil it for all the decent, hard working and honest tradesmen out there.

This is basic plumbing and he's ripped you off.

I almost pity the next guy who comes to change the valve. You will be watching him like a hawk and questioning everything. I can't say I'd blame you either.

NO NO NO NO...... Dannypipe don't you dare call these con men plumbers !!!! it is just because anybody can start up & call themselves one, that we have this bad reputation.

 

[IATM]

i could not sleep at night knowing id charged £300 for 2 hours work in which i had neither done anything or fixed the problem. 🙁

Your are right - it is really bad - I wouldnt care if they had done it to me (it wouldn have been possible) but obviously done it to my mum and pespecially when she was upset about my dad is what really bothers me.

I watch a lot of these cowboy builder programmers and cowboy traders and its taught me a lot and i can tell a dodgy guy straight away which is why i always get a quote first and get enough information from the tinternet before i meet anyone but it was just one of those times - thanks for your sympathy tho - nice to know there are really good tradesmen out their - just need you all to move up here !! lol

 

[AWheating]

Your are right - it is really bad - I wouldnt care if they had done it to me (it wouldn have been possible) but obviously done it to my mum and pespecially when she was upset about my dad is what really bothers me.

I watch a lot of these cowboy builder programmers and cowboy traders and its taught me a lot and i can tell a dodgy guy straight away which is why i always get a quote first and get enough information from the tinternet before i meet anyone but it was just one of those times - thanks for your sympathy tho - nice to know there are really good tradesmen out their - just need you all to move up here !! lol

the problem with those tv programs is they dont ever show a tradesman in a good light. Its 100% con man, which alerts potential customers to be aware but for the honest tradesman makes it alot harder to gain trust as many customers believe we are all them same. Tarnished with the same brush so to speak.

unfortunatley a program about a trademan who turns up and does a good job and not ripp the customer off makes for dull viewing.

 

[Millsy 82]

the house is to young really to have gravity cold supplys fitted to anything, i would suggest the best course of action is to flush the main testing its performance, replace the stop tap and non return under the sink on the main and then checking the fixtures like the float valves for dirt etc..... the poor hot water peerformance is most likely down to the taps fitted. 10m equals 1 bar so to get 0.5 bar to a upstairs tap you need the tank in the loft to be 5m above the tap if that helps give you a better understanding.

The chances are if they have put gravity HW in then they would have put gravity cold in. It does not really matter on the age.

If the pressure problem started when the CWSC was drained to change the taps then it is more likely air has got into the system. Easy to solve with a hose pipe and a cold tap. Before stripping everything apart costing more money start off with the easiest option first. After that I would start to strip things apart.

 

[IATM]

very true - I do always like it when the lady presenter goes and manages to get free stuff from generous local businesses and also local tradesmen come to help out for free (I know its good publicity for them) but its still nice to see them do this and also nice to see there are people who know what they are doing 🙂

 

[IATM]

The chances are if they have put gravity HW in then they would have put gravity cold in. It does not really matter on the age.

If the pressure problem started when the CWSC was drained to change the taps then it is more likely air has got into the system. Easy to solve with a hose pipe and a cold tap. Before stripping everything apart costing more money start off with the easiest option first. After that I would start to strip things apart.

can you advise the best way to drain the whole system and fill up to get rid of the air trapped? thanks

 

[AWheating]

The chances are if they have put gravity HW in then they would have put gravity cold in. It does not really matter on the age.

If the pressure problem started when the CWSC was drained to change the taps then it is more likely air has got into the system. Easy to solve with a hose pipe and a cold tap. Before stripping everything apart costing more money start off with the easiest option first. After that I would start to strip things apart.

gravity cold water is very rare on new systems fitted in the last 20years plus. The only advantage to doing this would be to suit mixers giving equal pressures, otherwise it would make no sense as you need a bigger tank, more pipework and costs more money.

the cold stop tap is faulty anyway so needs repair or changing, for the cost of a £10 valve its best to change it and flush the main. it would only take 20mins in total and remove any ideas the cold main has a problem.

 

[IATM]

any advice on how best to fush the whole system - what i usually do is shut off the main and open all the taps until its bone dry. then i switch on the main and let the water flow through and then switch them off. this ok?

I am certainly going to keep this thread updated with changes and problem resolutions so it can hopefully help someone in the future - i hate going to a forum and someone has came on with a problem - managed to resolve it and not came back to say how lol

 

[Millsy 82]

I have worked in many places that have been built with gravity hot and cold that have been built in the last 20 years around me and a house today about 12 years old all gravity. It all depends on what the developer got hold of cheap 1 site near me heat stores site right next door built 5 years later gravity its not that much more pipework otherwise they wouldnt do balanced cold feeds on unvented nowadays. Im just saying dont rule it out.

A quick way to tell would be turn the mains off and then see how long it takes for water to stop from bathroom taps

 

[AWheating]

the extra size of the tank, its tank stand would add alot of cost. Most modern roof spaces are structually weak and have no supporting walls inside the property which would mean a tank stand would cost easily in excess of £100 if build correctly (assuming they could be botherd to build it correctly). Like you said tho some builder fit what thay have lying in the back yard.

 

[glenno1]

Unfortunately theres a lot of these cowboys out there in all the trades and making more money than me and several on here i presume

 

[jase158]

Is the kitchen hot tap lower pressure then it was before the work was done?

 

[IATM]

In all honesty I couldnt honestly answer that as its been a while but what I will say is that the flow is very good - certainly not as good as the cold but I would expect this as the cold would be from the mains. if I could have the pressure I have downstairs upstairs it would be happy days as they say.

I have two sinks in the kitchen and hot water on both is very good as well as the small WC we have - the hot water in the basin in there is really good and the flush - its just upstairs everything seems to have gone pee tong

 

[jase158]

more then likely it is the taps,
1 easy thing to check is the tap spout head, there is usually a head on the spout of the tap, this can usually be removed with a tool. run the taps with the head removed and see if pressure is better or if you get a load of dirt out.

if it is dramatically increased and no dirt present then you can get replacement heads which allow more water through

if it is covered in dirt, try running system for a while with head off to try and remove a lot of dirt,

if taps dont have head, dont try and take apart (can be very tricky if you don't know what you are doing)

If there is no increase in pressure at all then most likely is a build up of dirt in pipes.

 

[jase158]

Whats That Filter Thingy In A Tap Spout - Another Informative Article From Grand Taps

here is a picture of the different filters available,

the one on the left restricts the water more then the one on the right.

In my opinion this is the only difference between high and low pressure taps, although i may be wrong

 

[IATM]

Whats That Filter Thingy In A Tap Spout - Another Informative Article From Grand Taps

here is a picture of the different filters available,

the one on the left restricts the water more then the one on the right.

In my opinion this is the only difference between high and low pressure taps, although i may be wrong

thats a great link - thanks for that it confirms my own thoughts - the taps in bandq that were specifically for low pressure systems too had ends with bigger holes so to speak and the high pressure taps only had the more mesh style opening....

wouldnt explain the poor flush in the toilets though - unless it was just crap my dad bought by accident off the internet - he purchased it thinking it was good stuff from the tinternet -

I am looking to get new stuff from victoria plumb it seems to get really good reviews from consumers and trade about the quality of their stuff - any thoughts anyone

 

[jase158]

thats a great link - thanks for that it confirms my own thoughts - the taps in bandq that were specifically for low pressure systems too had ends with bigger holes so to speak and the high pressure taps only had the more mesh style opening....

wouldnt explain the poor flush in the toilets though - unless it was just crap my dad bought by accident off the internet - he purchased it thinking it was good stuff from the tinternet -

I am looking to get new stuff from victoria plumb it seems to get really good reviews from consumers and trade about the quality of their stuff - any thoughts anyone

victoria plumb is a pain to fit, but cheap and looks good.

is it the flush that is poor or the filling up of the toilet that is poor? as these are seperate, if there is water in the system but not flushing well then it is the flush valve that is faulty not the water coming in.

if its not flushing because it has no water in it, then its the flow and like then definetly the pipes are clogged up or air locked, i.e.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

one thing no one has mentioned yet, are there any isolation valves on the pipework that are partly closed?
like this

 

[Best]

Low pressure taps tend to be physically larger & with more open flow - like you get with very old taps.
Check the valves from the cold tank are opening fully, as they have been turned off & on to do work - if they are gate valves (normally round red metal heads) then they can seem like they are opening but actually broken inside.

 

[Best]

one thing no one has mentioned yet, are there any isolation valves on the pipework that are partly

You just got in before me! :smile: Would be my first thought.

 

[jase158]

yeah good point and any valves in airing cupboard

 

[Mike Jackson]

It's entirely possible that the valve to the toilet has a flow restrictor fitted. If the "plumber" that fitted the taps didn't check they were suitable for low pressure it's unlikely he has removed the flow restrictor from the valve.

 

[glenno1]

Mebee a gate valve as said before or a stopcock that is not fully open on the line somewhere,or mebee a gate valve on the horizontal that has accumulated dirt

 

[Joncpi]

As the downstairs hot tap seems OK. Any gate valve on the tank is probably fully open. As said before check the diffusers on the taps. Often when you look closely at them you can see two small "flats" on either side. Carefully using an adjustable spanner you can remove them by turning them anticlockwise like a normal nut. That is anticlockwise when looking from underneath, not when looking down from the top. Dont use too much force if in any doubt ask a plumber. They can be cleaned by washing under the tap and then replaced. The toilet may still have a high pressure nozzle fitted and needs to be changed to a low pressure one. A high pressure nozzle can easily get partially blocked the hole is only about 2 or 3mm whereas the hole in a low pressure nozzle is much larger. The type of "ball valve" supplying water to your toilet does depend on the type of cistern you have. Lastly, if dirt has got into your low pressure system I have quite often found the "ball a fix" type valve shown above, if you have them, can also get dirt in it, as the hole in these, unless a full bore ball a fix, is quite small. Check the flexies you have as there may well be a ball a fix on one end of each of these. Is there a flexy with a ball a fix on the supply to the toilet? Check this. Sometimes it can be sufficient to simply close and open the valve a couple of times with a flat bladed screwdriver to clear any dirt, with the tap open. However doing this on the toilet can cause the dirt to move along the line to the "ball valve"

 

[WHPES]

A bit late now but the trouble is that less experienced so called plumbers (and the majority of DIY'ers) often don't realise that most modern taps and showers are not designed to work on old fashioned systems (i.e. gravity with header tanks). They may not have flow restrictors anyway.

TBH it is normal to pipe the last couple of metres to a shower with 15mm due to space constraints. The problem is more likely that the new shower is a modern type and not suitable for old fashioned low pressure gravity systems. A shower pump should fix the problem. Also the cold and hot feeds for the shower should come directly from the cistern and cylinder respectively and not be teed off some other supply.

 

[IATM]

A bit late now but the trouble is that less experienced so called plumbers (and the majority of DIY'ers) often don't realise that most modern taps and showers are not designed to work on old fashioned systems (i.e. gravity with header tanks). They may not have flow restrictors anyway.

TBH it is normal to pipe the last couple of metres to a shower with 15mm due to space constraints. The problem is more likely that the new shower is a modern type and not suitable for old fashioned low pressure gravity systems. A shower pump should fix the problem. Also the cold and hot feeds for the shower should come directly from the cistern and cylinder respectively and not be teed off some other supply.

I have to 100% agree with this - when I have asked many of them about how to tackle or look at taps that are better for low pressure they honestly look at me as if I am weird.

so just to give you guys an idea of what is going on in the house this is th set up I have in the airing cupboard



This is how the flexi connectors have been set up under the sink which I think is the major restrictor coupled with the fact that the mixer tap isnt probably catered for low pressure systems



this is the pipes running under the bath tub where he connected the smaller pipes in white) this runs under the tub but only i guess the cold pops out the wall for a shower fit - no idea where the other goes. the tub has two taps too -

I think the best thing for me to do is to have both the pipes (hot and cold) run up to the wall and have one of these fitted as it runs as a 3amp i believe, has an inbuilt pump to pump out 14 litres per minute even at a 0.1 bar water rate and seems like what i need even if it is a bit expensive. what you guys think.



Aspirante Thermostatic Power Shower - Chrome

 

[jtsplumbing]

Pic 1. Get rig of the gate valves & fit Full flow leaver valves
Pic 2. Change for full flow service valves
Pic 3. Flexi seams very long ?
Pic 4. Would think that both white pipes go to shower !

Why not if you have a new shower just fit a pump in cylinder cupboard ?

 

[acecharly]

What is the flow rate at your kitchen sink? is it much greater than the bathroom? the gland nut may not need replacing and simply need tightening its a little brass nut at the bottom of the handle if you look. In the bathroom you may find there are isolation valves on the pipes going up to your bath taps these are there to make it easy to change them or maintain them saving you turning the water of to the whole property take of the bath panel and have a look they may just be slightly cracked open if they are with the tap running adjust them with a flat headed screwdriver to the desired flow.

Hope this helps.

 

[acecharly]

never got to your pics before i posted just. That flexi under the sink looks kinked at the top its to long also you need to got to the end where the taps are on the bath and check for those isolation valves.

 

[IATM]

Pic 1. Get rig of the gate valves & fit Full flow leaver valves
Pic 2. Change for full flow service valves
Pic 3. Flexi seams very long ?
Pic 4. Would think that both white pipes go to shower !

Why not if you have a new shower just fit a pump in cylinder cupboard ?

pic 1: great advise - managed to find these and the second review shares your exact view (pasted below)
pic 2: sound advice again
Pic 3: 100% agree it is almost in like an S shape and it just cant help at all and I am sure these much be thinner inside that the outside let on
pic 4: no it doesnt - took off the bath cover last night and the cold has a joint which takes a pipe up into the wall, the hot water is just linked direct to the tape.

The pump idea is something I had first however every plumber I seem to ask to do it doesnt seem to want to do it and says they are not great but I hear otherwise online and from people on this forum. From my reading they are easy enough to fit and solves the problem they are designed to.
are they noisey? or can you can quiter ones? My plan was that if I did have one I would put some sound proofing in the airing cupboard and that would help enough to isolate the noise.

Any advise on what pump for the set up I have and would it be possible to run the new shower I will be fitting and also the electric shower in the en suite.

Last night I thought I need to find out if its the taps - decided to jab a screwdriver into the tap hole and try and tear off the mesh part at the end...

took off 1
2
3
4
layers of the mesh stuff!!!! - automatically the flow was much better - that got my thinking that the tap is designed to work under high pressure so is restricting it and also the poor connections below the sink are also not helping - all in all positive progress in resolving the issue. I have found a mixer that is designesd to specifically work on 0.1 bar pressure (wanted new taps anyway) so I will be buying that.


Full Bore Lever Ball Valve 22mm | NoLinkingToThis
Reliable and easy to fit27 Jul 2011
By [DLMURL="http://reviews.NoLinkingToThis/5873redes-en_gb/AdFB/profile.htm"]AdFB [/DLMURL]
, Glastonbury

"I have fitted many of these valves. They are 100% relaible and very easy to fit thanks to nice copper olives.
These are a far better bet than a gate valve as they don't sieze up and provide a complete air tight shut off.
I also use them instead of those screwdriver operated things which jam up restrict flow and leak

 

[IATM]

Hi aceharly - the flow to the kitchen sinks and WC is significantly better. I had the same thoughts as you - I was tempted to turn it up full and take a ahlf turn back and then tighten the gland nut that people have mentioned on this form - I will monitor if it leaks or not - if it does - it will be a simple change of the stopcock. 🙂


I will get a picture of under the tub later on tonight - I have a feeling it might not be the best way to have the piping set up in terms of having the best flow.....

 

[acecharly]

If it was me there id change the stopcock for the price of the things anyway there only about £7 instantly rules out that being a problem but simply nipping it up will probably do the trick. Leaving the hot tap aside which can be more complicated, if the cold tap on the bath is running slow while the kitchen sink tap is good there must be something stopping the flow like a valve below the bath taps as the cold on the bath should be hardly any different to the kitchen. With regards to the hot pipe the main problem i can see is that both pipes running under your bath are 15mm where as the hot would be better suited to have a 22mm run. But first things first check behind that panel for those valves.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Looking at the pics again it looks like the up stairs is beeing fed by low pressure (2 x gate valves) these could be faulty ! replace these first !! Then it looks like new bath has been fitted ? if so then the 2 white pipes need to be 22mm up to the taps ! Shower should have its own seperate supply ! New electric shower connect to mains water ! But find out what the water pressure is in your house,! as you may need to fit a pressure reduceing valve, (Read instructions for new shower) any other service valves you fit need to be full bore, more so on low pressure systems.

 

[Will_D]

No one has asked "How is the cold water at the kitchen sink" This is fed from the mains via the suspect stop-cock and the non-return valve

If you are getting a good flow and pressure at the sink then the problem is not under the sink!

Hope this helps

Willl

 

[IATM]

Could I not run a set up similar to this?



I think I have this set up in the house and all I would need to do is get a surrey flange fitted for locked air and the pump. going to have a look tonight to establish exactly how the supply of water runs to the basin and toilet.... Not sure if they run off the two pipes in my pic doing to the tub but under the floorboards.

ps there has always been a bath in that place - it was changed 9 months ago when this "plumbing was done, prob to take into account different postion of taps

 

[IATM]

No one has asked "How is the cold water at the kitchen sink" This is fed from the mains via the suspect stop-cock and the non-return valve

If you are getting a good flow and pressure at the sink then the problem is not under the sink!

Hope this helps

Willl

Cold water at the kitchen sink is epic 🙂 if I turn the taps on full the pressure of the water makes a hollow drum sounds against the bottom of the sink and splashes me in the process lol - now I just need even half that upstairs LOL

 

[IATM]

this is what has been done under my tub - look ok to you? me is thinking maybe not .....



me thinks this sort of set up would seriously restrict flow to the shower outlet - is there not a better sort of Y connector to split off to the shower and taps or am I thinking this the wrong way?

 

[AWheating]

that pipework is very poorly fitted, the isolator will reduce flow to the shower as its not a full bore. your bath supplys should have isolators also and the flexis will also reduce flow rates and your bath should be fitting on some timber braces to stop it going through your chipboard floor.

i would have also have fitted timber battons around the walls to support the bath side 🙁........ so to sum it up your bathroom installer is a dix.

 

[IATM]

that pipework is very poorly fitted, the isolator will reduce flow to the shower as its not a full bore. your bath supplys should have isolators also and the flexis will also reduce flow rates and your bath should be fitting on some timber braces to stop it going through your chipboard floor.

I think you will be shocked at what my parents were charged to do this work by a different plumber...... to input that piping and take one up to the wall

..... 280 pounds

how should this be done and with parts - ill do it myself - if you have links to parts that would be useful - I am quite handy with most things and rather do it myself now.

ps, he is also the person who tore out three massive holes in my chipboard like the one u see in my picture - i suspect he done this to see where the pipes were going..... *rubbing head* at the madness

 

[AWheating]

first thing to do is wined the legs up on the bath and put some timber under them to support the bath on the weak floor.

slide some 4x2 if possible under the front legs and the back legs (so 2 bits of wood, 1 under the front legs, 1 under the back legs)

 

[Millsy 82]

this is what has been done under my tub - look ok to you? me is thinking maybe not .....

View attachment 7571

me thinks this sort of set up would seriously restrict flow to the shower outlet - is there not a better sort of Y connector to split off to the shower and taps or am I thinking this the wrong way?

The pipes are undersized off gravity you should have 22mm pipes going to the bath.

And also looking from the pipework chances are you have an AIRLOCK in it ( I did keep saying it earlier just to point out)

 

[AWheating]

good spot, undersized pipes also. I would ask for money back from the cowboy fitter.

 

[IATM]

The pipes are undersized off gravity you should have 22mm pipes going to the bath.

And also looking from the pipework chances are you have an AIRLOCK in it ( I did keep saying it earlier just to point out)

can I ask a silly question - the hot and cold run under th floorboard )the HW tank is literally half a meter away in the airing cupboard. the hot and cold run directly under the tub and come up via a 90 degree bend per pic on page 4 to take 2 reduced white pipes back to the other end of the tub where the taps are.

WHY DID THIS MUPPET NOT JUST TAKE IT FROM UNDER THE FLOORBOARD WHERE YOU CAN SEE IT IN THE PICTURE ON THIS PAGE -WOULD THIS NOT HELP THE FLOW INSTEAD OF THE WATER HAVING TO DO A MASSIVE U TURN BACK TO WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE ....

time for a twinnings tea - two tea bags lol

 

[Millsy 82]

can I ask a silly question - the hot and cold run under th floorboard )the HW tank is literally half a meter away in the airing cupboard. the hot and cold run directly under the tub and come up via a 90 degree bend per pic on page 4 to take 2 reduced white pipes back to the other end of the tub where the taps are.

WHY DID THIS MUPPET NOT JUST TAKE IT FROM UNDER THE FLOORBOARD WHERE YOU CAN SEE IT IN THE PICTURE ON THIS PAGE -WOULD THIS NOT HELP THE FLOW INSTEAD OF THE WATER HAVING TO DO A MASSIVE U TURN BACK TO WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE ....

time for a twinnings tea - two tea bags lol

I think you just answered your own question with muppet

 

[gavinwilson]

Probably wrong but shouldn't the feed to the bath be 22 mm pipe

sent from my annoying box

 

[AWheating]

looking at it the bathroom fitter probably cant solder/fit copper??

 

[IATM]

Probably wrong but shouldn't the feed to the bath be 22 mm pipe

sent from my annoying box

no you are correct - i thought the same and a few of the experts in this thread have thankfully confirmed and agree

 

[snowhead]

looking at it the bathroom fitter probably cant solder/fit copper??

Or fit solvent weld waste correctly.
Looks like he /she knows where the nearest Wickes / B&Q is tho'.

 

[IATM]

I want to fix this myself - I just can't trust anyone to do it and I can't afford to pay out hard earned cash to people who don't even have the passion or moral to do a fair job.

I just need to know what to do - i just need to figure out the set up and I'll be able to do it myself.

 

[WHPES]

If you fit a shower pump put part of a paving slab beside the base of your cylinder and stand the pump on it. Plumb the pump tails up with plastic pipe not copper.

From your last photo, the large white pipe I assume is a waste pipe has a crazy angle.

 

[Millsy 82]

I want to fix this myself - I just can't trust anyone to do it and I can't afford to pay out hard earned cash to people who don't even have the passion or moral to do a fair job.

I just need to know what to do - i just need to figure out the set up and I'll be able to do it myself.

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Sorry for that ( Hopefully I have your attention) I have said time and time again try for an AIRLOCK AIRLOCK AIRLOCK ( I think 3 times is enough) I have been in this trade for 14 years and I was always taught start off with the easiest to solve but hey start changing everything else first if you want. Once you have tried that then start on other things

 

[Chrissy1966]

Why don't we all spend money getting qualified then use our knowledge and experience to help members of the public resolve their issues for free. Heaven forbid we would do a job ourselves and then charge for it. Did this guy really pay £300 for a stopcock or maybe just looking for a bit of sympathy. Come on guys if a member of the public needs a job doing they should do the decent thing and pay for a reputable tradesman to come and do the job not have a go themselves and come on this forum when they get stuck.

 

[Chrissy1966]

Originally Posted by gavinwilson
Probably wrong but shouldn't the feed to the bath be 22 mm pipe

sent from my annoying box



on a pressurised system the feeds can be in 15 mm, the dhw pipe work on a combi is always 15 mm so increasing the pipe size near the bath will make no difference.

 

[Mike Jackson]

True but as the system in question is gravity it's not particularly relevant in this instance.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Easy way out now is to change the bath supply to 22mm, put some support under bath legs , if the 15mm pipe going into wall is supplying a electric shower, see if you can get this pipe connected to the mains water, if airing cupboard is on other side of wall to to bath then would be easey to pick up cold main were it go's up to roof tanks, A point that Chrissy1996 brought up was the standerd of work and the price you have have paid for both these jobs (£580) and can-not get it put right by the people you paid !! HAVE YOU DONE THIS WORK YOURSELF ??? Has I cant see a experienced Plumber or Bathroom fitter turning out this standerd of work !! I take it the prices quoted were Labour only ??.

 

[Chrissy1966]

True but as the system in question is gravity it's not particularly relevant in this instance.

Hi mike I just didn't want people to think you always need to use 22mm.

 

[IATM]

Hi Millsy 82 - If you could advise exactly how I would get rid of this airlock I would be really grateful - Like i said all this stuff is fairly new to me after reading it up and having issue after issue.

Also I just want to clarify I WOULD NEVER DO A JOB LIKE THIS AND PRETEND SOMEONE ELSE HAD DONE IT. Firstly I wouldnt want to give an honest tradesman in my area even a hint of a bad reputation if it wasn't true and secondly I would never have done such a bad job - the type of person I am is that either I start a job knowing I can 100% do it to a very high standard or I find someone who can. SO far I have had 2 plumbers come in and do work and each of them were local businesses - they came in and said the usual chat about it was "no bother" I can do that etc - I have had three other plumbers come in and have a look about the water pressure including one 15 miles away and they said yeah there is certainly something wrong with the pressure but when I ask basic questions they don't seem to know what I am talking about.

For example - when reading the internet I realized you could get low/high pressure taps and in the rest of europe a lot of the systems are high pressure - mainly it is UK that has this type of low pressure system and when companies order in goods etc they come from these countries and therefor are mainly designed for them so I thought the taps may be wrong - I asked each plumber could it be the taps they were changed and it reduced the flow and ALL OF THEM said no way it can't be. I started to read up on things again that restricted flow and started to look at taps in BandQ that specifically said low pressure and noticed they diddnt have the mesh sort of exit but just bigger holes I would imagine to let the water flow better and this was confirmed on this thread.

I am sorry if I have annoyed anyone some how - I have had this problem for almost a year - I have tried to call various plumbers after the two that have been in but when I ask basic questions about if taps can cause an issue or if the set up under the bath tub is acceptable they don't how to answer yes or no - and when I show some sort of basic minimal knowledge and ask about stuff they don't seem to like it - I have never been rude or asked them in a bad way; to the contrary I have asked them to help me and even if they don't know, to provide a name of a person who does - they don't care.

Its why I have got to this point that if I am equipped very well with the knowledge I guess as a worse case scenario I could speak to this new plumber and say to him look this is the issue and this is what needs to be done - what do you think or just to tell him thats what I want done and ill take responsibility for it - It took me almost 3 months to even call this plumber after he was recommended to me by a few people at my works who's bathrooms he had refitted because I was aprehensive he was going to be some sort of clown as well with my luck and wouldn;t beable to resolve the pressure.

I just don't want you guys to think I have came here because of a problem I created - if it was me I would just own up to it and say im an idiot can you help - call another plumber or just revert it back to what it was - it was all done by my mum who called in local plumbers because she wanted the bathrooms sorted and done up for when my dad got back home.

Also on a positive note - this new bathroom fitter I am talking to seems to know what he is talking about to a certain extent - When I showed him the problems he said that yes the taps can cause a problem - the pipes for the bath should be ideally 22m and don't know why someone would reduce it to 15mm - he also went to the airing cupboard and like you guys said the two gate values sometimes break inside reducing flow. However I am just really cautious because when I asked if two electric showers can be fitted in one house he said he would find out (I was grateful for his honesty - very imp) he came back saying yes as he spoke to an electrician however I am inclined to think not if both were on at same time (once again this is information from the net) I am going to speak to him today and ask how the lectrician thinks this is possible and what he would do to find out. This made me seriously just think about a mixer shower of some sort and since the hot and cold pipes are there already if I had to I am happy to make the taps for the bath redundant and take the pipes right up to the shower - its the most important item I require next to pressure being ok.

 

[SimonG]

You can have multiple electric showers, but on a domestic electrical supply you would need relays installing to ensure that only one shower can be used at a time. Seen this done before. If you had two running at the same time along with all the other 'household' requirements you would pop the main fuse.

In this situation, if you have one electric shower already then fit a pumped shower. Takes a cold tank feed and a feed from your cylinder on the hot, they work off of a 3 or 5 amp supply.

 

[IATM]

You can have multiple electric showers, but on a domestic electrical supply you would need relays installing to ensure that only one shower can be used at a time. Seen this done before. If you had two running at the same time along with all the other 'household' requirements you would pop the main fuse.

In this situation, if you have one electric shower already then fit a pumped shower. Takes a cold tank feed and a feed from your cylinder on the hot, they work off of a 3 or 5 amp supply.

Yup 🙂 thats exactly what I have read too. Thanks for confirming - Thats what made me lean towards a mixer shower.

 

[DAVE01]

Pics please, what area are you ?

Yes its Clowns like this that get Plumbers a bad name . Go to your local Plumbers Merchant and buy a 15mm stopcock the size of the water mains is either 15mm 0r 22mm but it can be reduced to 15mm under the kitchen sink to feed the cold water on the kitchen sink and possibly the cold mains water on a combi boiler nock off the water at the mains out side on the foot path if you have a water meter there will be a blue handle under the PVC cover on the footpath its only a 1\4 turn to knock off . Then you are good to go and just replace the stopcock . Only thing to watch is all Stopcocks have a arrow it goes in the directtion of flow dont turn this arrow upside down the valve will act as a non return valve if you do this and dont put the valve in the direction the water flows at best you will get little or know water You can do this yourself worst case the old stopcock the nuts and rings the slip by this i mean were the copper goes into the stopcock the ring will not meet the vale which shows the copper is a couple of mill to long cut a couple of mill off with a small hack saw if you dont do this it will leek and just to be sure rap the ring on the copper with some PTFE tape in a clockwise direction you will have to rap the PTFE onto a Pencil so that you can rap the Ring the Roll of PTFE Tape will not go around pipe if it is tight to wall this is the idea of the pencil Hope this is of Help

 

[Chuck]

Hope this is of Help

You are replying to a question and thread that is 12 years old.

 

[MikeJhn]

Interesting read though, only one person asked how much pressure the OP had at the Kitchen sink, answer was high, but most then still told the OP that the problem with low pressure upstairs was probably the stopcock and it needed changing?