Over 3 mins to get hot water in kitchen - is this normal?

[LCV]

Hi,

My family have just moved back in from a house renovation just before the Easter bank holiday. When I turned on the tap in the kitchen to wash up and it takes over 3 mins before the water was hot enough to wash up. I had a large kitchen sink put in and I managed to fill that up with cold water which I had to then drain away to replace it with the hot water. It would have been faster (and used less water) if I had boiled the kettle for the hot water. I now wash my hands with cold water after I have used the toilet because it takes so long and as a family so much water is wasted while we wait for it to be hot enough to bathe and shower.

I feel concerned. Is this normal? Before the renovation I did not have to wait long to get hot water to all my taps.

We had a Vaillant system boiler with a 250L indirect hot water cylinder put in. The previous combi boiler was moved from the kitchen to the Utility room. The kitchen is at the front of the house while the Utility room is at the back of the house on the same floor. The previous house was over 3 floors with 2 bathrooms and a loft conversion has taken it to 4 floors and 3 bathrooms. We were told that we would have to wait up to a minute to get hot water in the loft which we said we were fine with but it is actually a lot longer than that and we certainly did not expect the rest of the house to be affected in this way.

I will go back to the plumber to discuss but wanted to get your views and advice first. I am really hoping the problem is to do with a setting on the boiler.

Thanks!

 

[Howsie]

Hi and welcome.

No it's not normal. According to government guidance it should take be no more than 30 seconds to deliver water at 50c so as to conserve water and energy.

Poor design by the sounds of it.

 

[LCV]

Oh no....what can be done at this stage?

Is it the Plumber's responsibility to check this after 1st fix or is it my responsibility to have checked or specified that I wanted hot water as per government guidelines?

 

[Howsie]

Oh no....what can be done at this stage?

Is it the Plumber's responsibility to check this after 1st fix or is it my responsibility to have checked or specified that I wanted hot water as per government guidelines?

The responsibility is most certainly with him!

 

[Howsie]

There are a variety of options available to you but most likely at this stage will be a local heat source such as a small unvented hot water cylinder under the sink.

 

[Jay The Plumber]

I think that there is a legionella risk also..
IIRC, the limit for DHW reaching the furthest tap is 50 or 60 seconds depending on property type..

 

[LCV]

Thanks Howie for the good advice. If you don't mind can you tell me the other options available to me so I can ponder over them before I meet with the plumber. I have sent him an e-mail to let him know and asked for him to come by next week.

 

[tamz]

Sometimes the design of the house dictates where things can be put. The farther away the hw cylinder (or combi) is from the taps, the more water has to be drawn through the pipes.

Your only solution is to put in what is called a secondary return (basically a loop of pipe and a pump)
This is how big buildings like say a hotel works. The hw tanks may be 100's of yards away from the taps but you get hw within 2 or 3 seconds.

Speak to your plumber about it.

 

[Howsie]

I doubt you're plumber will want to pipe up a secondary return now that the renovations are finished. It's without doubt what he should have done in the first place but I'd imagine it's too late now.

If it's only the kitchen tap that suffers then perhaps consider an instantaneous water heater.

 

[SimonG]

Either instantaneous, but slow flow, or a 10 or 15 litre hyco.

Speedflow | HYCO Manufacturing

 

[gassafe]

Hot was as per government guidlines lol... Good luck telling that to your plumber lol!

Sounds like a long dead leg to the kitchen sink, maybe due to the relocation of the hot hw cylinder etc... Maybe possible to reroute the pipe more direct etc, best get him back to check...

 

[gassafe]

A secondary hot water circulation could also be an option or have the Combi feed the kitchen still & not the unvented system!

 

[gastec]

Was your water mains pipe replaced/upsized from stopcock in road back to your property?

 

[lame plumber]

as tamz says it needs secondary return supplied by a bronze pump on a time switch. no brainer if tap is on a long run

 

[LCV]

Thanks for your replies.

Is it too late to fit a secondary return? what level of work is involved to do this? The fastest time for me to get hot water is 52 secs in the toilet on the ground floor. The tap in the loft en-suite takes 4mins.

I still haven't heard back from the plumber. Perhaps he is busy....

 

[rpm]

Thanks for your replies.

Is it too late to fit a secondary return? what level of work is involved to do this?

I still haven't heard back from the plumber. Perhaps he is busy....

Reckon that needs eyes on to answer accurately.

 

[LCV]

Ah I see. Do you think I should call out another plumber to assess and get second opinion?

 

[rpm]

Ah I see. Do you think I should call out another plumber to assess and get second opinion?

If the 1st guy wont come back I guess it`s the only option.

 

[LCV]

I meant after speaking to the plumber (when he gets back to me). I've just discovered that he has fitted my shower incorrectly. When I turn on the shower the hand rinser comes on instead of the shower head so I am losing a bit of faith in him.

 

[Riley]

Is it a digital shower

 

[Scott_D]

Post some pictures of the cylinder etc

 

[LCV]

It is not a digital shower. It is a Hansgrohe manual mixer that operates like single lever tap so lift up to turn water on and swing it to the left for hot and right for cold. You pull the diverter to divert the water to the hand shower. In this instance he has installed it the other way round.

 

[LCV]

Here are some pictures.

 

[Howsie]

Perhaps get another plumber in...?

 

[SimonG]

Cupboards fitted after the cylinders went in? Them immersions might be a bit tight to swap out 🙂

 

[ShaunCorbs]

and the port valve right at the back

 

[SimonG]

Combi valve half way up the cylinder. That'll be fun to change.

 

[SimonG]

Obviously done by somebody with no intention of ever coming back to it. Got your certs from building control yet?

 

[Riley]

Am I imagining it or does the prv not join D1 prior to tundish?

 

[Best]

Am I imagining it or does the prv not join D1 prior to tundish?

I think the pressure relief valve (from combination valve) just joins straight into a tee on the D1.
Photo is poor, but if that is the way it is done, then it is sort of okay.
Would have been so much easier and been more proper to have the combination valve high and the relief valve piped with a fall down to D1.
That unvented cylinder is going to need castors on its base to aid removing it for any maintainence or replacing parts. :smile:

 

[LCV]

Oh, I feel concerned by your comments. Are there any recommendations on what I should do at this point? Particularly to aid my hot water situation.

I haven't received any paperwork from him. What does he need to provide to me?

 

[Best]

He is supposed to have filled a detailed form in for building control to have and for the units warranty which is often 25 years.

 

[Howsie]

Get another plumber in. I did smile a little when I saw that blanked off of secondary return.

 

[oz-plumber]

To put it mildly, unless your kitchen sink is over 100 metres away from your cylinder, it would be deemed acceptable for that lag time.

Either there is a major malfunction with a mixer tap - easy fix, or a catastrophic malfunction with the Plumbing design.

Hopefully, for you, mixer tap malfunction

 

[Tjdservices]

I don't think the plumber will be answering,

 

[spanner]

As Tammy says according to the layout of the job. Also you've been away for a while ago from your domain. So hopefully the piping up is well lagged and the need for a speedy water recovery could get faster.
If there is an obvious long pipe run. The lagged pipework should be twice the lag closer to the hot cylinder for heat conservation reasons.

 

[chris watkins]

[DLMURL]https://www.traceheatinguk.co.uk/commercial-hot-water-maintenance-trace-h[/DLMURL]

I was going to suggest using this until I saw the cylinder pipework un-lagged (Not Part L compliant) so chances are none of the supply pipes are insulated.

Insulation would help on its own but if you want to use this heat tape to maintain the hot water temp in the pipes they must be well insulated. The pipe routes need to be located to work out if it is possible / cost effective to install a secondary return or self regulating heat tape but either way insulation of pipes is going to be required.

Get a good plumber in, unfortunately it is your responsibility to ensure that the installation is notified to Building Control (hot water cylinder AD Part G & L1b & heating appliance Part L1b
sounds like bathrooms as well Part H, electrical Part P etc)

Was there planning involved ?

 

[LCV]

Oh my gosh, the plumber has replied and all he said is nothing can be done about it now. I just have to live with it.

I cannot accept this. I have paid thousands for a new heating system and I am in a worse position than when I had my little combi boiler. I never had an issue with the time it took to get hot water only sufficient supply.

I instructed private building control from the start of the project. Before we moved back in the Surveyor came by and did a final inspection. Should he have picked this up?

 

[LCV]

After a new heating system is installed, is it normal practise for the plumber to carry out a test to see how long it takes for hot water to come through?

 

[Scott_D]

Who employed the plumber, you or the builder?
Who designed and specified boiler etc

 

[LCV]

The builder.
I believe the plumber designed the heating and hot water system as he is the most qualified person to do this - not 100% sure but it does not make sense for the builder to do it.

I said I wanted a boiler and a separate hot water cylinder due to the supply issue that I had with my combi. From my research I believe that combi-boilers are designed for flats rather than three/four storey houses. I said I wanted a Vaillant boiler as I hear they are one of the best.

 

[Scott_D]

Have you phoned the builder?

 

[LCV]

He is aware and sticking by with what the plumber has said.

I have called Vaillant and they think it is to with the design of the pipework. They said that the fact that I am getting hot water means that the boiler is working.

 

[Howsie]

It won't be a problem with the boiler, it will be either a very badly designed pipe layout or fault.

 

[Howsie]

Either way, it's the builders responsibility to get it fixed if you're paying him and he's paying the plumber.

I've said it before, and I'll say it once more, get a decent plumber in to look at this!

 

[LCV]

I will do that. Could you recommend a decent plumber? Please PM me if you prefer not to post their details.
Thank you so much!

 

[LCV]

I live in Peckham, London SE15.

 

[Howsie]

Give me two seconds and I'll get back to you.

 

[Howsie]

Give Mak a call on:

07899747777 his rates are £90 ph plus vat and I would expect him to find what's wrong in less time than it takes the kettle to boil.

 

[LCV]

Great, thank you! I will give him a call.

 

[Howsie]

Please do. He's a lovely fella and will give you an honest and frank opinion of what the problem is, who's to blame and how to get it fixed to your satisfaction.

 

[REDSAW]

long thread, i now looking into retirement pensions!

 

[Howsie]

How did you get on with him?

 

[Howsie]

I'd like to draw your attention to this thread which you started in July last year: http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/c...79-hot-water-circulating-ring.html#post791776

It's very disingenuous of you moan about the performance of your hot water system when your plumber advised you to have one AND you asked for our advice on here. We have endeavored to help you on a variety of subjects and you've received a lot of valuable AND FREE advice. I doubt very much that you'll see much more of that on here; well not from me anyway!

 

[chris watkins]

I feel dirty, abused & used.

Post 2 in the July thread gave you all the info required, you choose to ignore this (free) advice.

Go live with the consequences I say.

The cheek of some people to come back & ask what they can do about it now.
And then to try to blame it on the Plumber / Builder to boot.

Better give your mate the heads up Howsie they will probably try to knock him.

 

[Howsie]

I've already warned him off and made sure that he passes the word around...

 

[LCV]

Okay, before you all get cross my posting in July doesn't tell you the complete story but I can understand why you would feel angry.

Back in July I received an e-mail from the builder which asked if I wanted a hot water circulating ring. He said in the e-mail "this is not necessary required as is only for comfort". If I chose not to have the ring then "hot water will start running in about 20-40 seconds" but if I chose to have the ring then "hot water would appear in a few seconds". This was in relation to the shower in the loft en-suite and the time it would take to get hot water. There was no discussion that the rest of taps in my house would be affected.

The price quoted was quite expensive to us which is why I posted on the forum in July to find out whether to do it or not.
Unfortunately, there were a number of unforeseen events that occurred which caused us to go over budget, for example my husband smashed the bedroom window by accident so we had to replace them. We discovered there was no insulation between the floor boards so had to add the cost of that in. When we took up the carpet in the bedroom we found that an old leak we had in the toilet had spread into the bedroom so had to replace the floor boards and so on.

As such we had to seriously look at areas where we could makes cuts and one of them was the circulating ring. We just thought, okay we will just wait 20-40seconds for the hot water it is not that long.

 

[Howsie]

I hope that you and your builder come to a mutually satisfactory conclusion.

 

[LCV]

We based this decision on the information that he presented to us. Obviously if he said that I would have to wait 3+ minutes in the kitchen and all my taps would be affected I would consider this an necessity rather than a luxury item for comfort.

I spoke with Mak, really nice guy so thank Howsie for his details, he said that if it had been him he would have put it a secondary return into the design for a 3+storey house automatically and not even asked the client if they wanted it.

When I texted Mak I actually asked if he thought I was to blame as this is something that has been on my mind a lot. He replied back and said it was their fault because of the information that was presented to me.

I am very grateful for all your help and advice that has been given here. Of course I really, really regret not going ahead with the ring. My house is just finished, I have a baby and a young child, so the idea of the house been smashed up again makes me feel completely ill.

 

[LCV]

I hope you all feel less angry now.

 

[SimonG]

:leaving:

 

[LCV]

This posting started off with the question whether 3+minutes was normal to get hot water in the kitchen. I thought it could be to do with a setting on the boiler. I did not even connect it to the circulating ring because that, in my mind, was in relation to getting hot water in the loft so why would my kitchen be affected.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

This posting started off with the question whether 3+minutes was normal to get hot water in the kitchen. I thought it could be to do with a setting on the boiler. I did not even connect it to the circulating ring because that, in my mind, was in relation to getting hot water in the loft so why would my kitchen be affected.

the longer the run the more cold water you have to draw off before fresh hot water from the cylinder is used, the pipe might not be lagged/ insulated

with a secondary return the cold water in the pipe is sent back to the cylinder and fresh hot water is put in its place

in simple terms

 

[LCV]

Thanks for explaining Shaun.

What I can't get my head round is why it takes such a long time to get hot water in the kitchen. I know the boiler has been moved from the kitchen to the Utility room but when the boiler was in the kitchen I didn't have to wait over 3 minutes to get hot water in the Utility room. The wait was more like 40seconds. My husband thinks the hot water must go to the loft first before coming back down to the kitchen in order to take that long rather than straight from the Utility room to the kitchen...

Hopefully it will all be resolved and this will be a story I will tell to my children when they are older about the dramas involved with renovation projects.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thanks for explaining Shaun.

What I can't get my head round is why it takes such a long time to get hot water in the kitchen. I know the boiler has been moved from the kitchen to the Utility room but when the boiler was in the kitchen I didn't have to wait over 3 minutes to get hot water in the Utility room. The wait was more like 40seconds. My husband thinks the hot water must go to the loft first before coming back down to the kitchen in order to take that long rather than straight from the Utility room to the kitchen...

Hopefully it will all be resolved and this will be a story I will tell to my children when they are older about the dramas involved with renovation projects.

from the boiler to the kitchen distance wise? and very unlikely it will go upstairs first and then back down to the kitchen

 

[LCV]

It is around 8 meters away, is that big? The kitchen and living room is open plan so one room. The Utility room is next to the living room, so across the living room to get to the kitchen sink.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

It is around 8 meters away, is that big? The kitchen and living room is open plan so one room. The Utility room is next to the living room, so across the living room to get to the kitchen sink.

depending on run you could have 10-12m maybe 15m if theres things in the way of pipework esp if its un- insulated yes

at a rough guess 0.2L per m of 15mm or 0.35L for 22mm

worst case 22mm estimated at 15m 5.25L

 

[LCV]

Sorry this doesn't mean anything to me. How does this translate timewise? Are you saying 3+mins is normal then because of the distance? If so, why didn't I have an issue with the time to hot water in the Utility room when the boiler was in the kitchen?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Sorry this doesn't mean anything to me. How does this translate timewise? Are you saying 3+mins is normal then because of the distance? If so, why didn't I have an issue with the time to hot water in the Utility room when the boiler was in the kitchen?

depends on factors length and run of pipework is it insulated etc, but building reg/water regs state you must have hot water within 30 seconds

"government guidance recommends that when opening a hot water tap, or other outlet, the water should reach 50°C within 30 seconds." to stop wastage of water

 

[LCV]

Do you know which section of building regs your quote came from so that I can refer to it. It does say it is only a recommendation though.

I had instructed private building control for my renovation project but the surveyor for some reason is not replying to my e-mails about this issue as I had asked him first whether 3+mins was normal before posting here.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Do you know which section of building regs your quote came from so that I can refer to it. It does say it is only a recommendation though.

I had instructed private building control for my renovation project but the surveyor for some reason is not replying to my e-mails about this issue as I had asked him first whether 3+mins was normal before posting here.

3.7 g3

"Pipework should be designed and installed in such a way as to minimise the transfer time between the hot water storage system and hot water outlets."

also

4.4.1

"In small systems, with normal tap running times and a maximum delay of 30 seconds for the hot water to reach the outlet, the pipes would be subjected to sufficient temperature to kill Legionella (or inhibit growth) without the need of secondary circulation."

but something is wrong

 

[LCV]

Thank you Shaun. I presume my house despite being on 4 floors is still classified as a small system.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thank you Shaun. I presume my house despite being on 4 floors is still classified as a small system.

yes was from my commercial book

could you measure how much water is drawn off before it becomes hot please?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

if my math is right a bristan kitchen/ any tap has a flow rate of about 10-15 lpm (estimated)

so take it at 10 and you dont have hot water for about 3 mins

thats 30L does that sound about right (ballpark)

 

[LCV]

I can fill my kitchen sink to the top before it gets hot. Would the measurement of my sink be sufficient?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I can fill my kitchen sink to the top before it gets hot. Would the measurement of my sink be sufficient?

need to know how many l your sink holds 😀 you could try with 1 or 2 L bottle of pop and see how many it takes before you get hot water

 

[LCV]

Do you feel like there is something else wrong aside from not having the secondary return? I don't know why but something is not sitting right with the length of time the taps in my house is taking. My neighbour across the road lives in a very similar house but his combi boiler is located on the 3rd floor and he doesn't have to wait minutes to get hot water to his kitchen.

Actually, just thinking about this a bit more. I have another neighbour who lives in an identical house (these are new houses 11 years old on a new street so all the houses are built the same size and layout). He had a loft conversion but did not change his combi boiler. I am going to ask him to time how long it takes to get hot water in his loft.

 

[LCV]

Ah okay. I will do that tomorrow and post back. Thanks you so much and goodnight.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Do you feel like there is something else wrong aside from not having the secondary return? I don't know why but something is not sitting right with the length of time the taps in my house is taking. My neighbour across the road lives in a very similar house but his combi boiler is located on the 3rd floor and he doesn't have to wait minutes to get hot water to his kitchen.

Actually, just thinking about this a bit more. I have another neighbour who lives in an identical house (these are new houses 11 years old on a new street so all the houses are built the same size and layout). He had a loft conversion but did not change his combi boiler. I am going to ask him to time how long it takes to get hot water in his loft.

like i have said before factors on a few things like pipe runs/ length, is it insulated, dia of pipe work etc

tbh i would of put a secondary return in anyway as while your doing the lot its one extra pipe that can matter

and good night

 

[LCV]

Oh okay. I understand. It is difficult to make a real assessment without all the relevant information.

 

[gastec]

What size is the incoming water mains?

 

[LCV]

Hi Shaun - test done at 3:40pm. Time taken to get hot water is 2mins 40 seconds. 10.8 litres.
Does the time of day make a difference? Also, I had to stop and start as I only have one empty 2L plastic bottle, i.e. once the bottle was full I turned off the tap, emptied the bottle and refilled. Do not know if this affects the results in anyway.

 

[LCV]

Hi Gastec - sorry I don't know and I wouldn't be sure of which pipe to measure.

The house is 11 years old. Your question has made me think whether the location of the water mains could be causing the time lag. I think my mains water pipe is at the front of the house. The Utility room where the boiler and cylinder is located is at the back of the house.

 

[Riley]

Hi Shaun - test done at 3:40pm. Time taken to get hot water is 2mins 40 seconds. 10.8 litres.
Does the time of day make a difference? Also, I had to stop and start as I only have one empty 2L plastic bottle, i.e. once the bottle was full I turned off the tap, emptied the bottle and refilled. Do not know if this affects the results in anyway.

those results sound ridiculous that's under 5 L a minute. My naff gravity hot water at home will do 10 L a minute easily. It sounds to me like you have a bigger problem there Also stopping in between each 2 L is going to make a mess of the results. maybe get a couple of 5 L buckets from the hardware store

 

[Riley]

Hi Gastec - sorry I don't know and I wouldn't be sure of which pipe to measure.

The house is 11 years old. Your question has made me think whether the location of the water mains could be causing the time lag. I think my mains water pipe is at the front of the house. The Utility room where the boiler and cylinder is located is at the back of the house.

Why do you think it's causing an issue ?? Were you given the option to upgrade your mains if necessary The correct operation of an unvented cylinder is very dependent on the flow and pressure of water. Do you know where your stopcock is if so take a photo of it to include the pipe entering and exiting it

 

[LCV]

if my math is right a bristan kitchen/ any tap has a flow rate of about 10-15 lpm (estimated)

so take it at 10 and you dont have hot water for about 3 mins

thats 30L does that sound about right (ballpark)

Just rereading this comment. Wow, 30L, that is a lot. I thought filling over five 2L bottles before I got hot water was bad but okay my situation is not as bad as this. When I wash up I don't turn on the tap at full blast otherwise the water would spray everywhere. Generally I turn on the tap, wait for the water to become hot and when it is hot I increase the flow. In the test I had it a bit higher than medium flow.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

those results sound ridiculous that's under 5 L a minute. My naff gravity hot water at home will do 10 L a minute easily. It sounds to me like you have a bigger problem there Also stopping in between each 2 L is going to make a mess of the results. maybe get a couple of 5 L buckets from the hardware store

Won't harm that much tbh will give you a rough Idea
And agree somewhere there is a problem, maybe a half closed valve or rubbish in a strainer etc

Would need a G3 eng to check those tbh

 

[rpm]

Oh okay. I understand. It is difficult to make a real assessment without all the relevant information.

More like impossible I`d say !

 

[LCV]

those results sound ridiculous that's under 5 L a minute. My naff gravity hot water at home will do 10 L a minute easily. It sounds to me like you have a bigger problem there Also stopping in between each 2 L is going to make a mess of the results. maybe get a couple of 5 L buckets from the hardware store

Hi Riley - I see, shall I redo the test but turn on the water at full blast? I need to get the bucket first.

 

[Riley]

I think the simple answer here is LCV needs to get another engineer in to take a look there is a number of things here that don't add up and over the Internet it's Nigh on impossible for us to work out with a massive degree of accuracy

 

[Riley]

Hi Riley - I see, shall I redo the test but turn on the water at full blast? I need to get the bucket first.

How open did you have the taps?

 

[LCV]

Why do you think it's causing an issue ?? Were you given the option to upgrade your mains if necessary The correct operation of an unvented cylinder is very dependent on the flow and pressure of water. Do you know where your stopcock is if so take a photo of it to include the pipe entering and exiting it

I thought perhaps the delay could be caused by cold water having to travel from the mains to the boiler and then back to the kitchen. Whereas when the boiler was in the kitchen it was pretty close to the mains.

 

[LCV]

Over half way. I have a Franke swan tape with a water filter.

 

[LCV]

Sorry I don't know what a stopcock looks like. I need to google this. Is it normally under the sink or by the cylinder?

 

[Riley]

You no longer have a Combi boiler you now have a store of hot water in the hot water cylinder. Which is heated by your boiler. For the kids during the day as you use hot water obviously this is replaced by cold water going into the cylinder Depending on your heating/ Hot water settings The boiler will sporadically turn on and bring the water in the cylinder back up to temperature during the day. With the greatest of respect it doesn't sound like you've had your system explained to you as you don't understand how the system components work which other

 

[Riley]

Over half way. I have a Franke swan tape with a water filter.

Are you pulling through just hot water or a mix of hot and cold

 

[Riley]

Sorry I don't know what a stopcock looks like. I need to google this. Is it normally under the sink or by the cylinder?

You really really really need to speak to the builder/plumber and have these things explained to you. What are you supposed to do in the event of an emergency and you need to turn the water off. If as you say the mains water enters your property through the front of the house it is likely that there will be a brass tap or a lever valve. If you know where the mains enters the property then it should be there

 

[Riley]

 

[LCV]

It is embarrassing how little I know. TBH I would prefer my husband dealt with this but he is worse than me.
The plumber used by the builder doesn't speak great English so we don't really understand what he is saying.
Here is a picture of the cupboard under my sink. I can't see anything that looks like that image you sent Riley. I need to open the panel which houses the sprinkler maybe it is in there. We had to have a water sprinkler fitted to meet building regs.

 

[Riley]

I'm sorry but that doesn't show us anything. A photo near the hot water cylinder might show it