Passable work or bodge job!?

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

Hi, just trying to get an opinion on some plumbing the bathroom/kitchen fitter is in the process of fitting for our new sink, shower & rad.

First pic is cold supply coming in through the wall from the toilet next door. There are double joists right under the stud wall, hence coming in hidden in the wall. Not keen on the speedfit joint.

Second pic shows the spaghetti junction of the remaining pipes. Of most concern is the copper radiator return pipe with the speedfit joint sitting on top of the joist!

Haven't spoken to the guy yet and I think the pipe is just about covered once he fills in the case but surely that joint will stop him from sticking the floorboard back on as I think it'll be proud of the wall.

Any advice gratefully received! Especially if there's a different way he can route it. Need to know if this is passable or I need to get him to rectify.

Cheers!

 

[king of pipes]

I think you know the answer very poor . Kop

 

[Riley]

It’s not the best but what can he do when the pipe comes in in Speedfit

 

[Welder]

Hi, just trying to get an opinion on some plumbing the bathroom/kitchen fitter is in the process of fitting for our new sink, shower & rad.

First pic is cold supply coming in through the wall from the toilet next door. There are double joists right under the stud wall, hence coming in hidden in the wall. Not keen on the speedfit joint.

Second pic shows the spaghetti junction of the remaining pipes. Of most concern is the copper radiator return pipe with the speedfit joint sitting on top of the joist!

Haven't spoken to the guy yet and I think the pipe is just about covered once he fills in the case but surely that joint will stop him from sticking the floorboard back on as I think it'll be proud of the wall.

Any advice gratefully received! Especially if there's a different way he can route it. Need to know if this is passable or I need to get him to rectify.

Cheers!

View attachment 36909

View attachment 36910

Fact is, any push fit joint under perm tension, as these are, is a weak joint. The manu specifically advises against it.

Personally I'd prefer copper under floor where there are inaccessible

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

Cheers for the replies. If it came straight in through the wall in copper what would he be able to do different? The feed in the toilet is copper, then splits after feeding the toilet to plastic pipe and just pokes through the stud wall and into the wall in the bathroom as shown in the photo.

 

[Riley]

Well he could do a joint in copper in the wall which would be preferable. You say you don’t like the speedfit joint but do you know why??

 

[Harvest Fields]

I would say he has done what he could without ripping all the plastic out and starting again.

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

No reason other than it'll be buried in the wall.

Regarding all the joints under the floor, it's a tricky one and I'm no plumber but cold feed is coming in through the wall then needs to split to feed shower and then sink. Can't see how he'd do it any other way? Told me it's all Speedfit these days for stuff that's not visible. The hot feed comes in from the opposite end of the room, hence spaghetti junction in the middle!

 

[Harvest Fields]

No reason other than it'll be buried in the wall.

Regarding all the joints under the floor, it's a tricky one and I'm no plumber but cold feed is coming in through the wall then needs to split to feed shower and then sink. Can't see how he'd do it any other way? Told me it's all Speedfit these days for stuff that's not visible. The hot feed comes in from the opposite end of the room, hence spaghetti junction in the middle!

It is only speedfit where not seen if it is the engineers preference mate. I run in copper myself.

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

I would say he has done what he could without ripping all the plastic out and starting again.

That's what I'm thinking. Hence me asking whether it's passable. Spoke to his boss and they said they'll push the radiator return pipe further into the wall to clear for the floorboards.

 

[Harvest Fields]

That's what I'm thinking. Hence me asking whether it's passable. Spoke to his boss and they said they'll push the radiator return pipe further into the wall to clear for the floorboards.

If the return pipe is the one resting on the joist. I wouldn’t push it further into the wall. I would move it so that it is inside the same notch that the speedfit is in. It is big enough.

 

[Riley]

That was all I meant you don’t want a plastic joint in the wall but if the incoming is plastic you have little option

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

If the return pipe is the one resting on the joist. I wouldn’t push it further into the wall. I would move it so that it is inside the same notch that the speedfit is in. It is big enough.

Yes it is. So where the copper drops down from the left hand radiator valve, instead of turning right, just drop further down and follow the joist to the notch in the joist with the other speedfit. Should I tell him to change the cold feed in the wall from plastic to copper and weld the joint? Is a push fit joint in the wall a massive no no? Thanks for the help so far, hugely appreciated

 

[Riley]

You shouldn’t have any mechanical joints in a wall

 

[Harvest Fields]

Yes and yes. But not sure how much of an extra cost it may be to change the cold feed.

 

[snowhead]

As Yorks Dave, the Speedfit joints look to be under strain.
Some additional support with clips may help, as below, particularly if it's mains pressure as the pipework will pulse as showers and WC inlets open and close.
Anywhere speedfit joins copper, the Speedfit and or joint will move the copper won't.

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

Yes and yes. But not sure how much of an extra cost it may be to change the cold feed.

Cheers mate. I'll get him to reroute. Regarding the joint in the wall, on a scale of ok to hell no, where are we with it?

 

[Riley]

Cheers mate. I'll get him to reroute. Regarding the joint in the wall, on a scale of ok to hell no, where are we with it?

They aren’t designed to be in a wall pure and simple

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

They aren’t designed to be in a wall pure and simple

Okay, will have to be changed then. I presume soldered copper joint is ok?

 

[Harvest Fields]

Cheers mate. I'll get him to reroute. Regarding the joint in the wall, on a scale of ok to hell no, where are we with it?

If it was my house. I would change it.

 

[gmartine]

As per Snowhead's idea above , a brace between joists and clip to that, anything buried soldered copper only.

 

[WC1]

If you've written that at 3am you know the answer already.
Is he qualified and insured for plumbing work?

 

[Scott_D]

Sometimes the job is equal to the price

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

Let's just say that he's an 'approved fitter' for a certain large bathroom and kitchen company. He's now changed the joint in the wall to a solder and the water feed from the toilet to copper. The rest is the same, I think it'll be ok, doesn't look under strain when you're standing over it. The pipe on the joist he dropped down a few mm by shaving a bit of the joist, not the best I know but I think if I go back again and tell him to re-route he'll **** me!!

 

[Riley]

You are the customer. Never think like that. This is how you get all the way to the finished article and are not happy with the end result it’s a communication thing and any decent engineer will be happy to discuss your thoughts or concerns

 

[Riley]

And you can see they’re under. Strain Speed fit is designed for quick installation it’s not designed to be pulled on tight bends

 

[Welder]

As per Snowhead's idea above , a brace between joists and clip to that, anything buried soldered copper only.

AND taped up so any potential lime cannot pin hole the copper

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

And you can see they’re under. Strain Speed fit is designed for quick installation it’s not designed to be pulled on tight bends

From the original pic and the four white pipes which ones do you think are tightly bending? Just look a wee bit curved?

 

[Harvest Fields]

AND taped up so any potential lime cannot pin hole the copper

Let’s hope it is taped

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

Let’s hope it is taped

It's not yet but will be!

 

[Welder]

Just to point out here that I assumed the whole installation was by your plumber. If I was wrong I apologise.

If you require them to reconfigure existing pipework then you will, rightly, incur additional cost. That said, it should not be unreasonable and you will have a better safer installation as a consequence.

 

[Welder]

From the original pic and the four white pipes which ones do you think are tightly bending? Just look a wee bit curved?

Plastic pipes should not be bent as that tensions the fitting. JG fittings are allowed 5 degrees only.

 

[Riley]

The two on the right will definitely be putting strain on the oring in the fitting

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

Just to point out here that I assumed the whole installation was by your plumber. If I was wrong I apologise.

If you require them to reconfigure existing pipework then you will, rightly, incur additional cost. That said, it should not be unreasonable and you will have a better safer installation as a consequence.

Basically the bathroom and kitchen was first installed by different fitters and was a total bodge job. This guy has been sent to rectify and reinstall everything. The new Speedfit plastic pipe work wasn't done by this guy, he chased the radiator pipes into the wall and joined them to the existing pipes laid by the first fitters. Originally the cold water feed came straight in on plastic pipe in an arc, kinda 40 degrees or so and dropped under the floorboards, and just plastered over!

I do feel sorry for him as I'm braking his balls over everything given the first installation was a nightmare.

 

[Pickwickpick]

Be nice to him, offer him lots of tea & cake, but insist on getting the job done properly, especially seeing as his firm bodged the initial install. If he's a decent tradesmen he won't mind. You don't want to have any regrets or issues further down the line when it will become much harder to get things rectified!

 

[Riley]

If he’s there to rectify then he will understand where you are coming from. Jut lots of “I know it’s not your fault but...” and tea goes a long way.

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

If he’s there to rectify then he will understand where you are coming from. Jut lots of “I know it’s not your fault but...” and tea goes a long way.

All a bit frosty at the moment but not a total breakdown. We're all a bit stressed for obvious reasons. Them because they're picking up someone else's Rubbish and me because I have to make sure it's all done right this time. Thanks for all the replies and advice.

 

[Harvest Fields]

It might be worth a chat to explain what you expect and what they are doing. If they are a new company correcting someone else’s mess they should be cut a bit of slack to be fair.

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

It might be worth a chat to explain what you expect and what they are doing. If they are a new company correcting someone else’s mess they should be cut a bit of slack to be fair.

My thinking too, hence why I didn't go back and tell him to change the radiator flow and return pipes which curve. I reckon they'll be ok as the water pressure won't be as much as the hot/cold feeds to the shower. May come back and haunt me I know!

 

[Riley]

Are you on a sealed system?? Also as the pipes heat and cool they expand and contract this is equally disturbing to the o rings as the pipes will move. Albeit fractionally but it still moves

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

Are you on a sealed system?? Also as the pipes heat and cool they expand and contract this is equally disturbing to the o rings as the pipes will move. Albeit fractionally but it still moves

Combi boiler

 

[gmartine]

AND taped up so any potential lime cannot pin hole the copper

Fabric tape will do, can also be used to hold up the wall.

 

[Riley]

Combi boiler

So it’s a sealed system at a minimum of 1bar rising to 2-2.5 when hot. Up to you

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

So it’s at a sealed system at a minimum of 1bar rising to 2-2.5 when hot. Up to you

You've lost me on that one I'm afraid! In my mind the chances of one of the O rings popping is relatively small. Just want him to get on with the rest of the job. We're in a Victorian property, it's amazing to me all the little bodges and quick fixes hidden under the floorboards, the ceilings and walls! You can get too stressed over every minute detail of a job and it just ends up with a Soded off workman

 

[Riley]

Ok up to you but your heating could conceivably rise pressure wise to 2.5 bar which is likely higher than your incoming mains. For the sake of two elbows I’d change it. And the minute details as you call them can often be the difference between a good and a bad job

 

[Harvest Fields]

You have to do what you think is best mate. We are only giving you recommendations on how we think that it should be done. But as long as you are happy.

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

You have to do what you think is best mate. We are only giving you recommendations on how we think that it should be done. But as long as you are happy.

Cheers, I'll be happy when it's all in and there are no leaks. Thanks again for the guidance.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Cheers, I'll be happy when it's all in and there are no leaks. Thanks again for the guidance.

Just bare that in mind if one of the John guest push fit fitting leak later on.

 

[Burger]

In my honest opinion, I wouldn’t be concealing a speedfit joint. The copper to the radiator needs to be protected from corrosion and movement (clipped).

The water regulations state the following:

No pipe shall be embedded in any wall or solid floor without meeting certain conditions.

No pipe shall be installed in a way it may become unduly warmed.

https://www.wras.co.uk/downloads/pu...eral/para_7_guidance_version_2_july_2014.pdf/

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

In my honest opinion, I wouldn’t be concealing a speedfit joint. The copper to the radiator needs to be protected from corrosion and movement (clipped).

The water regulations state the following:

No pipe shall be embedded in any wall or solid floor without meeting certain conditions.

No pipe shall be installed in a way it may become unduly warmed.

https://www.wras.co.uk/downloads/pu...eral/para_7_guidance_version_2_july_2014.pdf/

Since the original picture, the plastic feed coming into the room through the wall has been changed to copper and the Speedfit elbow dropping the pipe down is now soldered copper. It switches to plastic pipe once under the floor. The plastic joint on the right hand side of the radiator flow is now in the void between the joists. Only thing that will be buried now is soldered copper piping.

 

[Rob Foster]

My opinion , 4o years experience.
1. Untidy pipes un supported
2. Yorkshire solder fittings .DIY in my book unless its in a tricky spot
3. If he wanted a job in my outfit..in the old days .he would
would have to improve
4. my boys would really have a go on a friday over a pint they are never backwards on coming fwds



5. However main test is will it leak it may not look pretty

Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[Aire]

Where does this myth of lime corroding copper come from?

 

[Welder]

"Copper water tubing has an outstanding history of corrosion resistance in most underground environments. Copper does not naturally corrode in most clays, chalks, loams, sands, and gravels. Certain aggressive soil conditions, however, can cause it to corrode. The basic prerequisite for corrosion is the presence of appreciable amounts of moisture. Other factors that can facilitate the corrosion process include soils having: (1) elevated concentrations of sulfate, chloride, ammonia compounds, or sulfide; (2) poor aeration, which supports anaerobic bacteria activity; (3) large amounts of organic or inorganic acid; and (4) large oxygen or neutral-salt (especially chloride) differentials."

In certain building materials, although lime is a constituent part, it may not be well mixed or indeed clumped. In these circumstances it can present as an acid to copper pipework.

Taken from www.copper.org

 

[Chuck]

In certain building materials, although lime is a constituent part, it may not be well mixed or indeed clumped. In these circumstances it can present as an acid to copper pipework.

I have always been under the impression that builder's lime is very caustic, i.e. alkali. In what circumstances does it become 'acidic'?

The only acidic lime I know is the evil green fruit...

 

[Aire]

That's strange because the same website recommends burying copper in lime chippings to act as a preservative.

There must be some reaction when the lime is mixed that makes it corrosive because natural lime isn't corrosive to copper at all, in fact copper artefacts have been found perfectly preserved in lime and they have been buried for hundreds of years.

I fully agree that copper should always be sleaved with felt at a minimum, but I've always done it on the basis it gives the copper an expansion gap and prolongs the life of the copper by reducing abrasion.

 

[Pickwickpick]

That's strange because the same website recommends burying copper in lime chippings to act as a preservative.

There must be some reaction when the lime is mixed that makes it corrosive because natural lime isn't corrosive to copper at all, in fact copper artefacts have been found perfectly preserved in lime and they have been buried for hundreds of years.

I fully agree that copper should always be sleaved with felt at a minimum, but I've always done it on the basis it gives the copper an expansion gap and prolongs the life of the copper by reducing abrasion.

You're right, its acidity that corrodes copper, hence areas with very soft water can have problems with copper pipe.

Looks like the issue with copper through cement is galvanic corrosion due to soluble chlorides in the vicinity of steel (e.g. rebar)

https://www.concreteconstruction.net/how-to/corrosion-of-copper-in-concrete_o

 

[Burger]

You're right, its acidity that corrodes copper, hence areas with very soft water can have problems with copper pipe.

Looks like the issue with copper through cement is galvanic corrosion due to soluble chlorides in the vicinity of steel (e.g. rebar)

https://www.concreteconstruction.net/how-to/corrosion-of-copper-in-concrete_o

Also acidity from a boiler condense can corrode copper 😱

 

[Aire]

Also acidity from a boiler condense can corrode copper 😱

Yep I found that out the hard way, didn't have any overflow pipe, used copper instead 😳 not my finest moment 😀

 

[Welder]

Personally, I feel all these formal tests simply fail to replicate the wonderfully infinite range of stupidity and lack of thought demonstrated by the human species. No matter what we look for, we can find evidence 'somewhere' for. Conversely, if we disagree we can find evidence 'somewhere' to back our arguments.

Perhaps all we can realistically do is to protect/do/carry on how 'we' see fit? It does make life extremely difficult when, like on here, we all wish to learn and improve but perhaps we just have to just get on a do what we believe in? Over time things will be proven and we'll all get 'better' at what we do. 😉

 

[king of pipes]

Poetically put Dave, truth is the workmanship is poor and can be improved on massively under no circumstances bury speedfit fittings in a wall the plastic supplies can be tidied up with little effort and if that's his best of effort of concealing pipes into a wall then your in trouble. Kop

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

Poetically put Dave, truth is the workmanship is poor and can be improved on massively under no circumstances bury speedfit fittings in a wall the plastic supplies can be tidied up with little effort and if that's his best of effort of concealing pipes into a wall then your in trouble. Kop

Poetically put Dave, truth is the workmanship is poor and can be improved on massively under no circumstances bury speedfit fittings in a wall the plastic supplies can be tidied up with little effort and if that's his best of effort of concealing pipes into a wall then your in trouble. Kop

Just for my own future knowledge (homeowner not plumber!), whats the difference between burying a fitting in the wall and under the floorboards, tile etc? If something leaks it means destruction to get to them either way, right?

 

[Welder]

Under the floor is much simpler to access. Often one can get to them from below if in the middle of the house or above if up top.

 

[Keith O'KEEFFE]

Under the floor is much simpler to access. Often one can get to them from below if in the middle of the house or above if up top.

Fair dues. I've learnt more about plumbing these past few days than my previous 47yrs on the planet!! Cheers guys.

 

[Welder]

Fair dues. I've learnt more about plumbing these past few days than my previous 47yrs on the planet!! Cheers guys.

Thank you. It helps us old g1ts keep going when we are appreciated 😵

 

[Jim09876]

I would take it up with the builder who nearly demolished your bathroom wall. One thing chasing out a little plaster, but when the bathroom wall looks like a HS2 job...Sod take!

 

[Johny1092]

Quality job takes time ! time it’s money !
So either it’s cheaper and half decent but all works,
or nice and tidy and more expensive .
Also on retrofit you do not rip half the ,wall to fit nicely copper with clips and insulated etc as cement or other staff will make corrosion to copper and will be leaking .
So minimal destruction and make it work , or full refurb x3 price and all nice under the floor and plasterboard -water has no spine so matter 🙂

 

[Andyh]

I would do every joint in soldered copper and brasso the copper after .. and add extra support for pipe work in between joists ...I would obviously make a accessible hatch for any mechanical fittings buried in a wall ... powerflush the chrome radiator before adding it onto the heating circuit... as per m.i. ... re do the dodge brickwork if ... only every customer pays for it

 

[dan_the_plumber]

Proper plumbers use copper for inaccessible pipes. They also don't use 'solder ring' fittings.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Proper plumbers use copper for inaccessible pipes. They also don't use 'solder ring' fittings.

What’s wrong with solder ring?

 

[Best]

Proper plumbers use copper for inaccessible pipes. They also don't use 'solder ring' fittings.

!!! I used Yorkshire fittings on all work for years. Nothing wrong with them for professionals except they cost more than end feed. 🙂

I generally only use end feed now, but still use Yorkshire on 15mm

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Proper plumbers use copper for inaccessible pipes. They also don't use 'solder ring' fittings.

Disagree most of the old timers use it and is spec on some commercial jobs

 

[Best]

Disagree most of the old timers use it and is spec on some commercial jobs

Thanks for calling me an old timer. 😉
You are right about solder ring fittings being the norm in the past. Not sure why that was, but rarely see end feed on work done 50 years ago and I was taught to use Yorkshire fittings.
End feed was thought of by many as inferior then.
I suppose you could think of Yorkshire fittings as the faster method of soldering

 

[dan_the_plumber]

Maybe solder ring was the norm in the past and they do have their uses. But these days they tend to be used more by DIYers.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Surely that’s because of price and it is much cheaper for pros to use end feed?

 

[dan_the_plumber]

Surely that’s because of price and it is much cheaper for pros to use end feed?

Maybe. It's just the norm ain't it 🙂

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thanks for calling me an old timer. 😉
You are right about solder ring fittings being the norm in the past. Not sure why that was, but rarely see end feed on work done 50 years ago and I was taught to use Yorkshire fittings.
End feed was thought of by many as inferior then.
I suppose you could think of Yorkshire fittings as the faster method of soldering

😀 end feed wasnt around back then as much well that’s what I was told

 

[Best]

😀 end feed wasnt around back then as much well that’s what I was told

Yes, I think that is right.
There was the heavy brass end feed fittings about. I do know homes built end of war - 1946, had end feed copper work.
I didn’t do it though!!

 

[Harvest Fields]

Yes, I think that is right.
There was the heavy brass end feed fittings about. I do know homes built end of war - 1946, had end feed copper work.
I didn’t do it though!!

That old chestnut 😱😱😀

 

[Rob Foster]

That's strange because the same website recommends burying copper in lime chippings to act as a preservative.

There must be some reaction when the lime is mixed that makes it corrosive because natural lime isn't corrosive to copper at all, in fact copper artefacts have been found perfectly preserved in lime and they have been buried for hundreds of years.

I fully agree that copper should always be sleaved with felt at a minimum, but I've always done it on the basis it gives the copper an expansion gap and prolongs the life of the copper by reducing abrasion.

I always understood that copper pipe must be sleeved in concrete because it then is allowed to expand and contract and not try to pull itself apart which was just painting it with gloss paint was a none starter
Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[Best]

That old chestnut 😱😱😀

Only reason I mentioned 1946 is it is the oldest date genuinely I know for certain that end feed soldered copper joints were used in houses I worked on.
Just something that puts a time line for me that copper and end feed was used.
I am a bit boring like that. 🙂

 

[Welder]

Maybe solder ring was the norm in the past and they do have their uses. But these days they tend to be used more by DIYers.

Yah! I've made it to the hallowed ranks of a DIYer ... Even on my last job, multi-UVCs in 28mm etc I used solder ring. Only place I ever used end feed was where look was 'all'. Just never felt comfortable with 'em. However, I did stay away from crap ones 😉

 

[dan_the_plumber]

Yah! I've made it to the hallowed ranks of a DIYer . Even on my last job, multi-UVCs in 28mm etc I used solder ring. Only place I ever used end feed was where look was 'all'. Just never felt comfortable with 'em. However, I did stay away from crap ones 😉

How come you never felt compfortable with EF ?

 

[Welder]

How come you never felt compfortable with EF ?

When I first started using them I found you had to clean the hell out of 'em. I just had far more leaks than with solder ring. In the end, you kind of build up this 'thing' in your head that convinces you you're better off elsewhere. The human mind is a very powerful tool - just not in my hands 🙄

Having a continual flow of 'low cost' by proper Yorkshire fittings never influenced me one iota 😉