should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for money?

[Reg Man]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

Years ago, when The Institute of Plumbing was the leading recognised body for the industry, we had to demonstrate that we were suitably qualified to join. This really meant something. Although you were not legally required to be IOP, at least the customer could have better assurance that the plumber they were employing new what the were doing. This all seem to be water'ed down over the year's (excuse the thrase) as registration bodies are competing for business and seem to allow almost anyone to register.

 

[cr0ft]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

My 2 pence. If you run your own business then your business thrives or dies on the quality of your work. Cowboy plumbers are (generally) come in a lot cheaper than fully qualified, registered plumbers who run their businesses properly. Therefore, cowboy plumbers only exist because of unrealistic customers who believe they can get more for less.

The solution? Realistic customers I would say!

Being a qualified plumber myself, I really don't believe most plumbing qualifications are worth their salt. I am relatively inexperienced as plumbers go but I have picked up on gas leaks caused by Gas Safe fitters...

 

[mo7]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

cowboy plubmers are not always cheap.

its difficult for the average customer to know what a job is worth

I am sure there are big variances in rates amongst 'genuine' plumbers.

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

i agree with what is being said about bodys such as ciphe accepting anyone just to boost there membership and cash for there owners.
i think there should only be one plumbing body for england just like snipef in scotland who only accept timeserved with svq3 ... i dont know what exactly you miss out from full plumbing quallification doing just the level 2 part but why not just do extra work to get level 3?
no wonder all these rougue tradesman shows are always in places like england with some of the practises that go on there.
fair play there are some older guys from years ago who never went to college and are as good as any plumber but these days the law should be changed to only allow any sort of trade qualification would have to have worked for so many years before they can get certificate or call there self a plumber, joiner, brick layer or tiler.

wasnt the cscs / jib card meant to help with this? building sites require them but do the average customer even know that to get one of these that says plumber or advanced plumber etc you would have to have proved your competence with certificates maybe awareness should about this should be more widespread.

 

[tamz]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

i dont know what exactly you miss out from full plumbing quallification doing just the level 2 part but why not just do extra work to get level 3?

NVQ2 is roughly the equivilent to a C&G craft cert and a NVQ3 to Advanced Craft.
When i served my time probably around 80% only did the Craft (3 years) as going back for the 4th year was down to the employer.

Now it is (in Scotland) a standard to do an SVQ3 which is still only 3 years so where has the extra year's study gone? No more 3D trigonometry and Reynolds numbers?
How many can remember how to use /do that?

 

[robinwatson]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

You have to be qualified to do gas work but we still see the pics posted on here an in the mags, the poor work will still be carried out, qualified or not

Qualification/regulation is definitely the way to go. For new entrants, how about a comprehensive 'degree' type course? Paramedics and social workers now both have these in place. Rogue traders should be prosecuted more readily and not be allowed to simple start trading again under a new name, as is the case at the moment. Crazy world!

 

[REDSAW]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

NVQ2 is roughly the equivilent to a C&G craft cert and a NVQ3 to Advanced Craft.
When i served my time probably around 80% only did the Craft (3 years) as going back for the 4th year was down to the employer.

Now it is (in Scotland) a standard to do an SVQ3 which is still only 3 years so where has the extra year's study gone? No more 3D trigonometry and Reynolds numbers?
How many can remember how to use /do that?

cant knock the lads with just the nvq2, it was a choice to get on the tools early and get earning quicker than the boys who wanted to be forman work in the office or sign of the jobs at the time 'sod that'= lets go to the pub.
my point is, if you have a nvq2, gas ticket, work for yourself but get advice or employ help for more complex jobs, then i ask is a plumber with nvq3 working for an employer any better a plumber?.
after all the nvq3 bit covers complex heating systems (open vent & unvented), system design, business skills and gas. if you have your own business this is what you pay others for, it does not mean you are a crapper 'plumber'.

another point of thought,
when you take the school run car in to the local garage for a new set of brakes, do you ask the mechanic to show you his qualifications?.
i can bet a lot of 'back street garages' are not all that qualified on paper and there is no law against it either,

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I am not knocking guys with the level 2 thing as before it was explained by tamz i never new what the difference was any one who has went to study at college and got a trade certificate with experience is a plumber just not these guys who only do the college but dont work for a couple of years at least min 2 years should not be allowed to start up plumbing buisinesses as it is false in what the are saying as they dont have the experience to call themselfs a plumber.
This was what this whole thread was about was should the government make it law to protect the public from rogue tradesmen you see on those shows on tv.
I think it is about time there were stricter regulations about what you need to do to call yourself not only a plumber but any other trade that is out there

 

[Bartdude]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

There will always be rogue tradesmen,no matter what is done that won't change. I think the public are better protected and more aware of that than ever,that's down to the publicity and the whole Watchdog/Rogue trader culture,also the internet has had a huge influence,all the information is there for customers if they want to look.

The problem lies with the quality of the training on offer now,it's simply not as good as it was and as a result standards drop accordingly.If it was standardised so that there was one way into the industry,combining good classroom work and proper on the job training things would improve.It's not very likely though,those days seem to have gone and there are too many willing to fill the places on fast track courses.As stated in previous posts it's not the fault of the people who take these courses,and there are lots of good tradesmen produced by the current methods,although I think that's down to the individuals' talents rather than the training.

Would a law help? I'm not so sure,we already have Gas Safe,Oftec,HETAS,CIPHE,WRAS et al and we're having these discussions more than ever,maybe it could be tightened up but if the customers don't heed it and ensure that they employ the right people then how much difference would it make?

By improving the way people are trained the whole industry would benefit and so would customers,start at the source.Easier said than done I'm afraid.

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

no need to bring in a further layer of competence, just tighten up the training and asssessment in the first place and ask that people are qualified. thats were the new quals come in

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

so we can say that the conclusion this thread has come to is that the government could start by banning all fast track courses in plumbing then? or at least the ones that run when people dont have any experience in the industry or dont have a company willing to give them experience.
I cant understand why anyone would pay 6 grand to a fast track centre and come out worse than a first years apprentice and then are let loose on the general public.

Gas is regulated so is oil etc etc but badly installed plumbing and particuarly sanitation systems can be hazardous to peoples health if not installed with the proper understanding and in the correct way.
also people who dont have correct experience can cause lots of damage to peoples houses as they dont really know what they are doing and will probably flood the house.

I think this has now been discussed from every angle and every one can safely say that there will be not one single change made to the current set up anytime soon which is a real shame as single parents and the elderly up and down the country will keep getting charged for plumbing work that they cant afford and then will have to pay again to get it fixed i feel sorry for them as a person who calls there self a plumber or any other trade name should not be allowed to do so without proving competence rant over

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I think one more thing thatr could help is for instance insurance companys will not pay out for any water damage unless the work caqrried out was from a time served plumber this would then force customers to think twice about who they employ to do work in there house.
I think this would be the best angle to hit it from

 

[REDSAW]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I think one more thing thatr could help is for instance insurance companys will not pay out for any water damage unless the work caqrried out was from a time served plumber this would then force customers to think twice about who they employ to do work in there house.
I think this would be the best angle to hit it from

wont work,
not every one has insurance, its not compulsory.
i and the wife for over 20 years=no insurance and no real need to untill recently we have it free through the bank.

simples is just to make it illegal so you can be arrested for practicing without a licence just the same as if your driving. let the customer rat on them.

 

[Bernie2]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

A person who calls themselves a Plumber should have integrity and be able to carry out what he or she claims they can.

As has been pointed out in mails qualification is not the answer. Some registered and qualified people seem to make more mess than an unqualified one. Licensing will not help either only drive up prices in an already expensive repair industry.

Just make it against the law to do bad Plumbing and police the industry properly.

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

how can they make bad plumbing law? its subjective, laws need to be black and white.
proper quals are the answer

 

[aquad]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

I am wondering if in the future it might be a good idea to internationalize a licensing scheme for plumbers? This way, knowledge (and enterprises like water conservation) could be pooled, and techniques and their implementation advanced. Besides, then I could think of using this professional credential to see so much of the world outside the UK, since I could finance my travels by working on the hoof.

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

this point i am making here has nothing to do with the law just what other countrys seem to think of your current set up for example and this is a fact a guy from scotland who has done his apprenticship in scotland applys to work in australia providing he passes all criminal checks etc is accepted no problem a guy who has done his training in england under your current system ie nvq applys to work in australia he will find it twice as tough and will need to sit more exams than the guy who is snjib registered and served his time in scotland this is a fdact google it up.
Now if this does not tell you the current set up you got going on is not flawed then i dont no what does basically people know the quality of plumber being produced due to this fast track culture cannot be accepted.
scottish qualifications are accepted anywhere no problem are nvqs? so a guy who done his nvq the correct way i.e. 3 or 4 years apprenticeship can be tarred with the same brush as the guy who fast tracked as they have got same qualification on paper very very strange how it was allowed to get to this stage

 

[Bernie2]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

The JIB grade is accepted all over the world probably, because it is not solely based on qualification but also on track record as well as capabilities. In other words you have to have put in the time and done the work before or similar to get a grade. That is a simple common sense approach.

I can't understand people relying on qualification all the time. Would you go skiing with an instructor who had only read about it in a book?

By the way when I worked as a training officer you could usually get a fee for submitting C and G questions. So any qualification would be based on what questions where accepted for the exam and that would depend on what the training officers knew about Plumbing.

One student I had, had passed his HVCG somewhere but was taking it again. I asked why and he said "In class we all did the projects together it never tested me" the questions where all multi choice and I just guessed lucky for the answers. Honest guy!

But he had no confidence in himself to know what he was doing despite being qualified.

 

[plumbster3456]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

The JIB grade is accepted all over the world probably, because it is not solely based on qualification but also on track record as well as capabilities. In other words you have to have put in the time and done the work before or similar to get a grade. That is a simple common sense approach.

I can't understand people relying on qualification all the time. Would you go skiing with an instructor who had only read about it in a book?

By the way when I worked as a training officer you could usually get a fee for submitting C and G questions. So any qualification would be based on what questions where accepted for the exam and that would depend on what the training officers knew about Plumbing.

One student I had, had passed his HVCG somewhere but was taking it again. I asked why and he said "In class we all did the projects together it never tested me" the questions where all multi choice and I just guessed lucky for the answers. Honest guy!

But he had no confidence in himself to know what he was doing despite being qualified.

may be summit skills and the jib should be doing more to combat this type oif thing.
yes you can get people who are very good at exams but have no real understanding of how to a carry out the job with there hands.
and multi choice questions? i hope that staement is not correct as if mukti choice usually straight away 2 answers will be totally wrong and even a monkey would know this so the guy has only 2 others toi pick from and let me guess if he gets wrong he gets another chance?
I think people like bernie who seems to know what he is talking about should be getting asked from the powers that be for his input in changeing things for the better in this industry.
I got family in building trade in england who have seen my work and told me good plumbers are hard to find these days as the bad ones out number them now wow change needs to bhappen soon

 

[fuzzy]

Re: should government make it law to be qualified plumber to do plumbing work for mon

The JIB grade is accepted all over the world probably, because it is not solely based on qualification but also on track record as well as capabilities. In other words you have to have put in the time and done the work before or similar to get a grade. That is a simple common sense approach.

I can't understand people relying on qualification all the time. Would you go skiing with an instructor who had only read about it in a book?

By the way when I worked as a training officer you could usually get a fee for submitting C and G questions. So any qualification would be based on what questions where accepted for the exam and that would depend on what the training officers knew about Plumbing.

One student I had, had passed his HVCG somewhere but was taking it again. I asked why and he said "In class we all did the projects together it never tested me" the questions where all multi choice and I just guessed lucky for the answers. Honest guy!

But he had no confidence in himself to know what he was doing despite being qualified.

how is your capabilities judged on jib card? when i had an advanced installers card years ago it just needed signing by an employer, anyone will do that to get rid of you...or was that just me in my early 20s?