Signing work off?

[Reza]

As you quoted, It isn't illegal to sign off works. Nowhere in the GSIUR would you find that, but every job you sign off (A) You are taking the risk of someone else's work knowing they are not even Gas trained, (B) You are promoting illegal works and thereby taking our industry one step closer to the cliff.

 

[Derek Hardman]

It IS illegal to sign off work done by an unregistered fitter, but not to sign off the work of a registered fitter.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Our proposal was submitted to GSR, they agreed there were interesting points, but out of their remit. I'd like to see Gas Safety regulations enforced. No grey areas, I don't want to legalise a work that an illegal fitter had done, by checking it and ticking it for the sake of customer having heat and hot water. If I did, I would never get rid of illegal fitters.

RESA
Can you you start new thread to post the proposal you made to GSR. I would like to see it, I am sure other would too.

 

[Linkyplumb]

The way I see it:

Why should I sign off work by someone, who obviously is actively seeking financial reward from a customer. If they want to earn fitting boilers, then go get their acs, fga and calibration etc, extra insurance, gas safe reg. the list goes on.

Incase you are unsure, I never sign off anyone elses works

 

[Dotty]

RESA
Can you you start new thread to post the proposal you made to GSR. I would like to see it, I am sure other would too.

This is it here Debs

http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/g...orum/52767-petition-reform-uk-gas-safety.html

 

[Masood]

The whole part of sighning it off means you check they havnt made any mistakes. so if a customer of yours had the gas disconnected and you had to go in after and re commission the appliances - you wouldnt do it?

That's a very different scenario, and you make it clear on the quote & invoice that you're recommissioning existing appliances with a visual check. Commissioning a new appliance means taking responsibility for the quality of the installation, IMO, and that can't be a visual.

 

[Dannypipe]

What annoys me, month in, month out is the little articles in the Gas Safe magazine.

It will always be along the lines of: Jake Scumbag, of Brighton has been found guilty of installing a boiler illegally and fined £600, made to pay costs of £200, and given a 6 month suspended sentence. Mr Scumbags install was inspected by Gas Safe inspectors who found 5 faults, including 2 ID's.

So it's cost him £800, and he's has a suspended (or not at all really) sentence. Yeah that'll deter em!

Stop suspending the prison sentences and it would practically stop over night.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

That's a very different scenario, and you make it clear on the quote & invoice that you're recommissioning existing appliances with a visual check. Commissioning a new appliance means taking responsibility for the quality of the installation, IMO, and that can't be a visual.

why cant you check the quality of an install with a visual inspection.

I have worked for big companies in the past where say one guy goes sick during a job, and you are asked to finish off. Now the other guy has hung the boiler, connected the gas and flue. I would TT, check the gas run through its length, inspect the flue and commission the boiler with all the checks that entails. Are you saying thats illegal.

Now with the above situation in mind, the same senario, however you are self employed and your customers last gsr has gone sick, gone bust whatever, are you saying that you cant sign off that boiler. I would like to think that most gsr have the wits about them to do so

 

[Dannypipe]

why cant you check the quality of an install with a visual inspection.

Because of many factors. You can't see how well they hung the boiler for a start.

I've been to big radiators that have fallen off the wall, fixed with 1" 10's. You don't know if they flushed the system properly, you don't know if there are any hidden comp joints on the gas line, unless you can inspect it all.

I once found a drop on a gas line, when I tracked it down, it was an old green joint, that the installer had forgotten to blow in. No solder at all, just the flux stopping a leak.

I like to know its my work that I'm putting my name to.

 

[tamz]

What annoys me, month in, month out is the little articles in the Gas Safe magazine.

It will always be along the lines of: Jake Scumbag, of Brighton has been found guilty of installing a boiler illegally. Mr Scumbags install was inspected by Gas Safe inspectors who found 5 faults, including 2 ID's.
He was removed from court and tied to a nearly lamp post beside a pile of broken bricks and offcuts of lead pipe. A hospital spokesperson said Mr Scumbag is unlikely to ever walk again far less go back on the tools, so we got a satisfactory result.

Maybe that would work:smile:

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Because of many factors. You can't see how well they hung the boiler for a start.

I've been to big radiators that have fallen off the wall, fixed with 1" 10's. You don't know if they flushed the system properly, you don't know if there are any hidden comp joints on the gas line, unless you can inspect it all.

I once found a drop on a gas line, when I tracked it down, it was an old green joint, that the installer had forgotten to blow in. No solder at all, just the flux stopping a leak.

I like to know its my work that I'm putting my name to.

You dont know these things when your re lighting appliances or carrying out services. Dont know how well theyve hung the boiler is pretty lame argument, give the thing a tug and see

 

[Nostrum]

I agree, not that I would sign of others work. Every time I get asked I say what's the benefit to me? I spend out all the money on quals and expenses only to be offered £50 to write out a certificate?

but I do agree, we walk into houses every day without knowing the standard of work within them. A few months ago I went to a house which transco had capped. Turned out to be an end feed coupling that had never been soldered, the washing machine had banged into it. The house was 16 years old and this pipe was in from new.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Im not making an argument for signing off others work, as stated before i have never done it as i have enough of my own. Im making an argument about the excuses that are offered for not signing off work.

The act of signing off other work on a technical basis is no different from the work we carry out on a day to day basis.

 

[leethegasman]

Because of many factors. You can't see how well they hung the boiler for a start.

I've been to big radiators that have fallen off the wall, fixed with 1" 10's. You don't know if they flushed the system properly, you don't know if there are any hidden comp joints on the gas line, unless you can inspect it all.

I once found a drop on a gas line, when I tracked it down, it was an old green joint, that the installer had forgotten to blow in. No solder at all, just the flux stopping a leak.

I like to know its my work that I'm putting my name to.

Are you saying if you do a boiler swop with the correct size pipework laid in existing floor walls etc that you would uncover all pipework to inspect in case there was a joint not soldered .i do a TT .we have all done work at existing property's where the TT has passed and then come across a unsoldered joint I can not see how we can be responsible for work that is existing all we can do is a visual inspection and TT .

 

[Masood]

why cant you check the quality of an install with a visual inspection.

I have worked for big companies in the past where say one guy goes sick during a job, and you are asked to finish off. Now the other guy has hung the boiler, connected the gas and flue. I would TT, check the gas run through its length, inspect the flue and commission the boiler with all the checks that entails. Are you saying thats illegal.

I'm not saying it's illegal. I'm saying I wouldn't want to just do a cursory examination. The testing you are describing is in-depth, would take time and you'd want paying good money for it. I've got no problem with that. The thread was asking whether you'd sign off someone else's work. I wouldn't unless I knew and trusted them.

Now with the above situation in mind, the same senario, however you are self employed and your customers last gsr has gone sick, gone bust whatever, are you saying that you cant sign off that boiler. I would like to think that most gsr have the wits about them to do so

It's not a matter of having the wits about you to do it, it's how thoroughly you check. In your scenario, let's say the custard has paid the previous GSR most of his money. They want you to sign it off cheap. If they're willing to pay for a proper inspection and commissioning, no problem. If they want a quick glance and a signature, no way.

 

[Masood]

The act of signing off other work on a technical basis is no different from the work we carry out on a day to day basis.

I disagree. A service, or LSC carries a certain expectation, as does a repair. Commissioning a new appliance carries higher expectations, so the onus is on whoever commissions it to carry greater responsibility. If something is wrong with the install and, say, the manufacturer's warranty is void because of it, it's your name on the benchmark, your responsibility to put it right. I'd want a lot more than a visual to take that burden on.

 

[Reza]

Let’s not beat around the bush lads. If one signs off an illegal fitters job, then he or she has betrayed every one of us and the industry at large.

 

[lame plumber]

Let’s not beat around the bush lads. If one signs off an illegal fitters job, then he or she has betrayed every one of us and the industry at large.

hear where your coming from, but if an innocent custard has an illegally installed system, I have gone in and followed the advice on the tb to cover my bum, and its cost the owner almost as much for labour as a normal boiler swap, if not a bit more, as I am covering the whole setup as well once youve signed. done it once, the other times i was asked they didnt like the quote🙂

Having been asked to sign off illegals on other occassions, I reported them to gas safe and trading standards, to have no effect at all as the customers were happy and not complaining, in one case building control went in to look at a big refurb, but were told all the gas work was original and not touched, depite them having asked me to sign of new lpg supplies and cookers etc!!! It wont stop until they stop selling kit to the illegals!

 

[Reza]

Here's a tip. When you do a tightness test, do you record your result! If you use an analyser to do this, you can print off and have proof that you have done a test and it stood up to standard at the time. Otherwise it's your word against the inspector and the court rather take the advice of the inspector. Kane units can have an optional wifi chip installed for £30, then your unit can talk to any other wifi device. With a bit of thought you could log these and keep them for a rainy day.

 

[Reza]

hear where your coming from, but if an innocent custard has an illegally installed system, I have gone in and followed the advice on the tb to cover my bum, and its cost the owner almost as much for labour as a normal boiler swap, if not a bit more, as I am covering the whole setup as well once youve signed. done it once, the other times i was asked they didnt like the quote🙂

Having been asked to sign off illegals on other occassions, I reported them to gas safe and trading standards, to have no effect at all as the customers were happy and not complaining, in one case building control went in to look at a big refurb, but were told all the gas work was original and not touched, depite them having asked me to sign of new lpg supplies and cookers etc!!! It wont stop until they stop selling kit to the illegals!

It's all in the pipe line. I hope you have signed our petition! http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/gas-safety-in-uk.html

 

[lame plumber]

of course🙂

 

[Dannypipe]

You dont know these things when your re lighting appliances or carrying out services. Dont know how well theyve hung the boiler is pretty lame argument, give the thing a tug and see

No but servicing is different to registering. You are registering to say you installed it, so if there is an issue it's down to you.

It may seem lame, and you argue to give it a tug, but I have seen fixings fail, and like I said, I've seen radiators, and towel rails that have fallen off the wall. So I'm not going to put my name to something that I haven't personally hung on the wall. I don't really care if you think it's lame or not. It's up to me.

I don't judge you for your opinion. It might change one day, and so might mine. But personally I think it's wrong to sign others work off. Just look at the 'hall of shame' on here. There are some really useless people out there, banging in terrible work. Not all of that terribleness will be on show!

 

[Reza]

Some of you may know I started a campaign in the hope that one day we get rid of all illegal Gas works in our country. I have found too many people, authorities alike, approaching me and telling me tails on all sorts. I tell you something now, you sign off someone's work following which an accident happens. It really doesn't matter that it's not your fault, you could not imagine how much trouble you are in. As I said, I really have been told too many stories. I got one engineer in Liverpool, left the work in progress over night but didn't cap the supply, even though he took the fuse out and turned the Gas off at the ECV and the boiler, boy is he paying a heavy price right now. We are now calling for tightening of the legislation and asking for raising the standards. Enforcement of the legislation, that's what we are calling for. By the time we are done and if we can make a difference, you know what is to be expected of us and if we put a foot wrong, well !! Looking at this issue so simplistically is easy because you haven't been in trouble with GSR, I haven't either, but we are going to have to practice what we've preached and take every steps in ensuring the standards are met.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Their are plumbers who are not gsr fitting boilers gas meters and doing a TT over the country on new builds and then the gsr fitter on site signs it all off .
Whats your take on that ??

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Their are plumbers who are not gsr fitting boilers gas meters and doing a TT over the country on new builds and then the gsr fitter on site signs it all off .
Whats your take on that ??

It is the GSR guy who is responsible - and in court - if things go wrong.
It may be OK for him to sign it off if he supervised the work and checked the work and is 100% confident that it is as good as if he did it himself.

I also thing we pay twice the rate of Public liability compared to other construction trades except roofers & ground workers.
We spend a load of money & time on training, on going training and GSR but prices are driven so low.

We rarely win straightforward heating jobs - we don't expect to - we're not too expensive but there are other guys who are too cheap! I can't believe what some people are willing to work for.
Perhaps they aren't paying tax and then we are VAT registered and perhaps tjose other guys aren't
All so unfair! Rant over!

BTW we are really really busy, just not with gas work - and what does that say about the going rates for gas work.

 

[Reza]

Their are plumbers who are not gsr fitting boilers gas meters and doing a TT over the country on new builds and then the gsr fitter on site signs it all off .
Whats your take on that ??

Then contact Robert Briscall on 07968 177223 Regional Investigation Officer, Gas Safe Register. Look it's simple. If you'd get burgled you would call the cops wouldn't you! How is this any different, those who sign off work steal from every other engineer who do everything to the text. I wouldn't think twice, shop them in, that's what I say. The industry needs a methodical cleansing.

 

[leethegasman]

I meant the original commissioning when the boiler is installed, in that instance No, not anymore, I will turn it off and tell the customer to get the original fitter back to commission, and tell them that if they wont return, to contact GSR.

I may have miss understood this one.are you saying that every boiler service you do you you ask the customer for the commissioning paper work and also confirm that the boiler has been registered.and if this is not provided you turn the appliance off.
Because I would think a large amount of boilers are not registered.the last time I was on my Gas refresher there was a class of 8 and they all seamed to no what they where doing except for one.the trainer stated talking about Alpha getting out of doing warranty work if the boiler was not registered, which I agree with.i and one other where the only company in the room that registered appliances.so in that one room there must have been hundreds of appliances being fitted illegal. that at some point one of us will be asked to service.i did say to them all what is the point in you being gas safe if you don't register the appliance.

 

[Derek Hardman]

I may have miss understood this one.are you saying that every boiler service you do you you ask the customer for the commissioning paper work and also confirm that the boiler has been registered.and if this is not provided you turn the appliance off.
Because I would think a large amount of boilers are not registered.the last time I was on my Gas refresher there was a class of 8 and they all seamed to no what they where doing except for one.the trainer stated talking about Alpha getting out of doing warranty work if the boiler was not registered, which I agree with.i and one other where the only company in the room that registered appliances.so in that one room there must have been hundreds of appliances being fitted illegal. that at some point one of us will be asked to service.i did say to them all what is the point in you being gas safe if you don't register the appliance.

Yes, these days I turn them off, have commissioned them in the past, if there is no benchmark commissioning, I check if it is registered, if not it goes off, the only way to stop the public having cowboys doing gas work is by making them understand that the end result id inconvenience and more expense, if everyone did it the same way the illegal installs would reduce significantly.

 

[Nostrum]

I can see where you are heading and I think we all want to be able to compete equally with other companies with the same overheads, and not see the dodgy installs and dangerous situations. Having said that though, we abide by the regulations in force as set out by the big cheese who made them regulation. We have to abide by these rules as much as the cowboys.

With that in mind, I cant see what authority we have turning off a perfectly safe appliance because you found it hadn't been notified. Technically you have a duty of care to the occupant in the house, and whilst we obviously can't ignore the safety issues, are we in a position to cut off some bodies heat and hot water?

Also, is it our job to police this industry in the way we feel fit at the time?

There will be times where gas safe fail to log the notification properly, or where a rule abiding company forget to register etc. The call for better enforcement is a good one, but who is going to do this, and at what cost to the registered installer and equally the customer?

I think education is a big part in this, how many times do you get asked for your gas safe card? I can think of a handful of times over the 14 years I've been in the industry, most of those were when I was fresh out of apprenticeship and looked about 12 (still blessed with youthful looks) shock style advertising like they use for cigarettes or seat belt adverts would help.

 

[Derek Hardman]

Capita allready have a system in place which could be used to licence gas appliances, they use it for tv licencing, that would be the best way, and for insurance companies to demand a valid service cert with the annual policy.
I try my best to determine if any attemot at all has been made to register and commission properly before I act, when nothing has been completed it is not usually a kosher job and I treat it as such. In other words, I dont take any risks.

 

[Nostrum]

Definitely agree with insurance companies being more forceful about annual servicing, not sure if they do void policies on that basis, I actually tell people they can as I'm sure they would if the boiler caught fire etc

licensing gas appliances will never happen, also it goes back to another post I made re: DIY gas. There is nothing to stop somebody fitting their own boiler, then getting building control to sign it off. The regulations only state you must be competent to do so. As of yet there is no definitive answer for proving competence, only incompetence.

 

[AWheating]

most home insurance policys have something in them stating that poor maintenence can result in the insurance being void. How many have there home electrics checked every 10years ?? may void a claim if you have a electrical fire.

 

[leethegasman]

Their are plumbers who are not gsr fitting boilers gas meters and doing a TT over the country on new builds and then the gsr fitter on site signs it all off .
Whats your take on that ??

I worked on new builds for 12 years and all the lads where always GSR and it is not unusual for these kind of company's to have someone else GSR checking over the work.

 

[Reza]

What happens when you sign off a boiler! Within 4 weeks, the home owner gets a notification licence from GSR, the document encourages the household to invite GSR for a free inspection. Suddenly your back side is up for a chance that the household doesn't call GSR in, day and night you'll be praying to God, there will be no dispute for as long as that boiler is on the wall, because I tell you, no matter how thorough you think you've been with your checks, GSR will find something wrong! Do I need to go on describing the rest!

 

[Dannypipe]

While we're on the subject of insurance, for any of you oil guys.

It's sometimes worth telling your customer that unless they declare on their building insurance that they are storing oil on their property they may not be covered in the event of a tank leak. Which when you consider they astounding amount of money it can take to resolve the damage from an oil leak, is not good news.

I worked at a property where the oil tank (plastic unbunded) was in a store room to the side of the house. My guys were on site doing work in the massive basement which ran under the whole of the house (which was a massive victorian place).

Anyway the fridge in the store room set on fire. Random electrical fault. Luckilly one of the lads smelt the smoke and put it out. Normally no one would have been there.

Best case the tank would have melted and flooded the whole basement with oil. Worse case the place would have burned to the ground.

This house must be worth £3 Million. It would have been a bad day for them. I got them to check their insurance details. Not covered (covered now).

(Oh and we did some work to make safe the oil tank in the future).