Signing work off?

[Reza]

Their are plumbers who are not gsr fitting boilers gas meters and doing a TT over the country on new builds and then the gsr fitter on site signs it all off .
Whats your take on that ??

Then contact Robert Briscall on 07968 177223 Regional Investigation Officer, Gas Safe Register. Look it's simple. If you'd get burgled you would call the cops wouldn't you! How is this any different, those who sign off work steal from every other engineer who do everything to the text. I wouldn't think twice, shop them in, that's what I say. The industry needs a methodical cleansing.

 

[leethegasman]

I meant the original commissioning when the boiler is installed, in that instance No, not anymore, I will turn it off and tell the customer to get the original fitter back to commission, and tell them that if they wont return, to contact GSR.

I may have miss understood this one.are you saying that every boiler service you do you you ask the customer for the commissioning paper work and also confirm that the boiler has been registered.and if this is not provided you turn the appliance off.
Because I would think a large amount of boilers are not registered.the last time I was on my Gas refresher there was a class of 8 and they all seamed to no what they where doing except for one.the trainer stated talking about Alpha getting out of doing warranty work if the boiler was not registered, which I agree with.i and one other where the only company in the room that registered appliances.so in that one room there must have been hundreds of appliances being fitted illegal. that at some point one of us will be asked to service.i did say to them all what is the point in you being gas safe if you don't register the appliance.

 

[Derek Hardman]

I may have miss understood this one.are you saying that every boiler service you do you you ask the customer for the commissioning paper work and also confirm that the boiler has been registered.and if this is not provided you turn the appliance off.
Because I would think a large amount of boilers are not registered.the last time I was on my Gas refresher there was a class of 8 and they all seamed to no what they where doing except for one.the trainer stated talking about Alpha getting out of doing warranty work if the boiler was not registered, which I agree with.i and one other where the only company in the room that registered appliances.so in that one room there must have been hundreds of appliances being fitted illegal. that at some point one of us will be asked to service.i did say to them all what is the point in you being gas safe if you don't register the appliance.

Yes, these days I turn them off, have commissioned them in the past, if there is no benchmark commissioning, I check if it is registered, if not it goes off, the only way to stop the public having cowboys doing gas work is by making them understand that the end result id inconvenience and more expense, if everyone did it the same way the illegal installs would reduce significantly.

 

[Nostrum]

I can see where you are heading and I think we all want to be able to compete equally with other companies with the same overheads, and not see the dodgy installs and dangerous situations. Having said that though, we abide by the regulations in force as set out by the big cheese who made them regulation. We have to abide by these rules as much as the cowboys.

With that in mind, I cant see what authority we have turning off a perfectly safe appliance because you found it hadn't been notified. Technically you have a duty of care to the occupant in the house, and whilst we obviously can't ignore the safety issues, are we in a position to cut off some bodies heat and hot water?

Also, is it our job to police this industry in the way we feel fit at the time?

There will be times where gas safe fail to log the notification properly, or where a rule abiding company forget to register etc. The call for better enforcement is a good one, but who is going to do this, and at what cost to the registered installer and equally the customer?

I think education is a big part in this, how many times do you get asked for your gas safe card? I can think of a handful of times over the 14 years I've been in the industry, most of those were when I was fresh out of apprenticeship and looked about 12 (still blessed with youthful looks) shock style advertising like they use for cigarettes or seat belt adverts would help.

 

[Derek Hardman]

Capita allready have a system in place which could be used to licence gas appliances, they use it for tv licencing, that would be the best way, and for insurance companies to demand a valid service cert with the annual policy.
I try my best to determine if any attemot at all has been made to register and commission properly before I act, when nothing has been completed it is not usually a kosher job and I treat it as such. In other words, I dont take any risks.

 

[Nostrum]

Definitely agree with insurance companies being more forceful about annual servicing, not sure if they do void policies on that basis, I actually tell people they can as I'm sure they would if the boiler caught fire etc

licensing gas appliances will never happen, also it goes back to another post I made re: DIY gas. There is nothing to stop somebody fitting their own boiler, then getting building control to sign it off. The regulations only state you must be competent to do so. As of yet there is no definitive answer for proving competence, only incompetence.

 

[AWheating]

most home insurance policys have something in them stating that poor maintenence can result in the insurance being void. How many have there home electrics checked every 10years ?? may void a claim if you have a electrical fire.

 

[leethegasman]

Their are plumbers who are not gsr fitting boilers gas meters and doing a TT over the country on new builds and then the gsr fitter on site signs it all off .
Whats your take on that ??

I worked on new builds for 12 years and all the lads where always GSR and it is not unusual for these kind of company's to have someone else GSR checking over the work.

 

[Reza]

What happens when you sign off a boiler! Within 4 weeks, the home owner gets a notification licence from GSR, the document encourages the household to invite GSR for a free inspection. Suddenly your back side is up for a chance that the household doesn't call GSR in, day and night you'll be praying to God, there will be no dispute for as long as that boiler is on the wall, because I tell you, no matter how thorough you think you've been with your checks, GSR will find something wrong! Do I need to go on describing the rest!

 

[Dannypipe]

While we're on the subject of insurance, for any of you oil guys.

It's sometimes worth telling your customer that unless they declare on their building insurance that they are storing oil on their property they may not be covered in the event of a tank leak. Which when you consider they astounding amount of money it can take to resolve the damage from an oil leak, is not good news.

I worked at a property where the oil tank (plastic unbunded) was in a store room to the side of the house. My guys were on site doing work in the massive basement which ran under the whole of the house (which was a massive victorian place).

Anyway the fridge in the store room set on fire. Random electrical fault. Luckilly one of the lads smelt the smoke and put it out. Normally no one would have been there.

Best case the tank would have melted and flooded the whole basement with oil. Worse case the place would have burned to the ground.

This house must be worth £3 Million. It would have been a bad day for them. I got them to check their insurance details. Not covered (covered now).

(Oh and we did some work to make safe the oil tank in the future).

 

[Nostrum]

What happens when you sign off a boiler! Within 4 weeks, the home owner gets a notification licence from GSR, the document encourages the household to invite GSR for a free inspection. Suddenly your back side is up for a chance that the household doesn't call GSR in, day and night you'll be praying to God, there will be no dispute for as long as that boiler is on the wall, because I tell you, no matter how thorough you think you've been with your checks, GSR will find something wrong! Do I need to go on describing the rest!

I've had an un informed inspection from gas safe and would happily let them do it again. Didn't find anything wrong. Im sure they could have if they wanted to but they aren't out to string you up by your balls. Again it comes down to education. How many customer know about the notification process, or the consequences of not receiving one?

How about the customer applying for a notification prior to the job being completed, then the installer self certifying that installation using some unique number on the notification. If the customer doesn't receive confirmation of it they can chase the installer, or better still gas safe can do that. The system as it stands is flawed because the installer has all the cards and keeps the notification secret to an unsuspecting customer.

 

[Reg Man]

What is the definition of signing off work? If you are signing it off because you are misleading someone into thinking that you have installed the installation when you have not, then you take the consequence's if it goes bad. At the end of the day if your asked out to commission an appliance which you know to be installed by a none registered person, you carry out rigorous examination of the installation, do all the necessary tests and make it clear on the paperwork what you were there to do and that the installer is unknown or otherwise. Report the non registered person if known to GSR. Therefore you are only there to ensure that on the day of your visit the installation was gas tight and the appliance was installed as far as you could see in accordance with manufacturer instructions and passed all relevant tests. In the commercial industrial world of gas fitting, it is usual for the install to be done by others and the commissioning to be carried out by another company, not a lot of difference.

 

[Dannypipe]

Yeah, but we're talking about domestic work on the whole here. Which is a different beast, and it's generally frowned upon.

 

[Reg Man]

Yeah, but we're talking about domestic work on the whole here. Which is a different beast, and it's generally frowned upon.

Ok agree with that, what about the rest of the post.

 

[Masood]

What is the definition of signing off work? If you are signing it off because you are misleading someone into thinking that you have installed the installation when you have not, then you take the consequence's if it goes bad. At the end of the day if your asked out to commission an appliance which you know to be installed by a none registered person, you carry out rigorous examination of the installation, do all the necessary tests and make it clear on the paperwork what you were there to do and that the installer is unknown or otherwise. Report the non registered person if known to GSR. Therefore you are only there to ensure that on the day of your visit the installation was gas tight and the appliance was installed as far as you could see in accordance with manufacturer instructions and passed all relevant tests. In the commercial industrial world of gas fitting, it is usual for the install to be done by others and the commissioning to be carried out by another company, not a lot of difference.

You make a very valid point, and IF that were the case - that I was given free reign to inspect and test everything to my satisfaction (and be properly paid for my time) then I'd have no problem commissioning an installation. But in general, a GSR will be asked to sign off a third-party install because the customer is a tightwad and doesn't want to pay so has employed a non-GSR to install the appliance (or has done it him/herself).

For the record, I have commissioned and registered one installation by a non-GSR person. My father in law installed his own boiler during a refurb of his place. He is a former ship's engineer and chartered electrical engineer. His soldering/welding/electrics and engineering knowledge would put 99% of plumbers to shame. I had no qualms about doing it because I know the quality of his work, he asked lots of questions beforehand to make sure he did it right, and he called me at various stages to double-check things. He did it for the job satisfaction, not to penny-pinch or cut corners, and I had no issues putting my name to it.

 

[plumbdoctor]

Very good post here, but really it makes no difference to servicing a boiler that was installed before all the signing off came in, you may be unlucky enough to miss something and cos your the last one there your liable for the installation not the dodgey installation installer, and I do not sign off any work not worth it !

 

[Deleted member 44451]

signing off someone elses work should never happen, i have been asked to do it but have always refused. not only are you putting your name to work that you havent done but also killing our trade and encouraging anyone out there who watches a diy program on telly to have a go. if everyone refused to do it then people would stop asking, but i have heard many times down the years guys saying i would rather go and do that and earn a few quid that sit at home all day earning nothing.some people like to call our industry a profession, its never that because we dont stick together like a professional body its every man for himself and always has been.

 

[Derek Hardman]

Good post supaplum, we should be batting for the same side, I do believe that some are beginning to understand that this would be of benefit, which of course means that some are not!

 

[leethegasman]

I personally think that the only way that all gas appliances will be registered is if it hits customers in the pocket.if every appliance has say £300 added on to it by the manufacturer and when the appliance is installed and registered the £300 is then sent to the installer or customer.this would stop all the GSR installers doing cash installs and GSR installers that work for company's doing installs on the side.and also DIY.but let's not kid are selfs a lot of installs done by fully registered installers look like DIY work.i personally think we work in a industry where the quality of work is poor.and possibly why most installers stay on there own and don't grow the business.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

I think our main problem isnt unregistered engineers, its legit ones who cut their own throat and ours by doing installs for materials + £150, its just crazy some of the quotes im getting beat on

Either that or my merchant is pulling my pants down:smile: