Variable flow Water Pump for instant water heater?

[DuckyUC]

Hi again

I fitted a instant electric water heater to supply hot water for whole flat
but the hot water flow are quite low

So I am finding a pump that can:

1. pump only on when water flow
so no pump noise all the time and the pump have longer live

2. pump can tune how much water flow/pressure to increase
the water heater have a max 10bar Rated pressure
If the water flow too high the water heater wont able to heat up the water to require temperature

I find a pump call Salamander home boost on google
It only on when water flow but it design to maintain 12L/min all the time so I do worry that will give too high water flow and the water heater wont able to heat up the water to require temperature.

Any recommend for water pumps?

 

[DuckyUC]

omg, I find it.
Triton T450i 1.2 Bar Single Impeller Positive Head Shower Pump

Seem fit my need

 

[DuckyUC]

triton got bad review on 1st page in google, any other model recommend?

 

[chris watkins]

:smilielol5:This little job is getting more & more costly by the minute. :smilielol5:

 

[AWheating]

so the heater we said would not be good enough and have a good enough flow rate is........................... not good enough and does not have a good enough flow rate ?
:19:

increasing the flow will make your hot water cold.

 

[DuckyUC]

the water heater have a max temp of 55C set by it thermostat, so I want to increase the water flow to a point until the water heater cant heat any more water

 

[DuckyUC]

for now the hot water amount restricted by the low water flow, whatever how low the water flow the max temp is 55c so it is potential able to generate more hot water by increase the flow

 

[DuckyUC]

just tested when i set the temp at 20c and 55c the water flow are the same, so the shower are not reduced the flow to achieve a higher temp

 

[Mike Jackson]

Fit the Salamander home boost or the Suart Turner Mains boost and put a restrictor just before the pump.

 

[DuckyUC]

Good idea,
I find [h=4]Grundfos UPA 15-90N[/h]Which is cheaper and
1. do have flow switch
2. able to turn the output

I find it cost £131 online will this be a good option?
The only bad thing is Salamander home boost able to fit on the water main but [h=4]fit Grundfos UPA 15-90N need consent from the water supply company (I guess they wont say no as long as the pump draw less than 12L/min water)[/h]

 

[Mike Jackson]

They will say no as it's not an approved product. Both of the pumps I listed will only turn on when the tap is opened. They are suitable because they have flow limiters built in. Unless you look at fitting break tanks there are only two pumps that are suitable at the moment.

 

[Howsie]

The good option would have been to get a qualified plumber to assess your need and provide a solution. What you seem to be doing is throwing bad money after bad.

 

[SimonG]

Why is anybody responding to this blokes posts now. This is the third post along the same lines, advice has been ignored and he is now trying to get something cobbled together.

I know the forum is here to help, but in the odd instance some people are beyond help.

 

[DuckyUC]

Thanks mike, I think I will go for Salamander home boost+ restrictor solution.

If I get a contractor give me a solution without understand what happen they often provide some solution seem ok before they leave then find more problem after. As I do found a a qualified plumber to fit the water heater already, dont want to waste the money again, the labor is like 2-4 times of the material itself.

 

[DuckyUC]

So each member only allow to open one post?
All 3 post are difference problem really.

 

[DuckyUC]

If I open 3 post ask 3 exactly the same question then you are right. If I want get instant access to hot water how does those advise me to install a immersion help? Think about it, will you buy a car that take 2hours to charge before it run and the battery only last 40min? If everyone prefer a car can run anytime why not for the water heater?

 

[SimonG]

So each member only allow to open one post?
All 3 post are difference problem really.

?????

 

[SimonG]

If I open 3 post ask 3 exactly the same question then you are right. If I want get instant access to hot water how does those advise me to install a immersion help? Think about it, will you buy a car that take 2hours to charge before it run and the battery only last 40min? If everyone prefer a car can run anytime why not for the water heater?

This is a great example of how not to manage a project in your home.

Ask advice, ignore advice, buy unsuitable product with no thought to installation or long term operation, employ plumber/electrician to install unsuitable equipment, blame plumber/electrician for equipment not supplying sufficient hot water (as was advised on numerous occasions), look for pump to fix screw up that probably won't anyway.

I'm off in the shower now with ample hot water.

 

[chris watkins]

This is a great example of how not to manage a project in your home.

Ask advice, ignore advice, buy unsuitable product with no thought to installation or long term operation, employ plumber/electrician to install unsuitable equipment, blame plumber/electrician for equipment not supplying sufficient hot water (as was advised on numerous occasions), look for pump to fix screw up that probably won't anyway.

I'm off in the shower now with ample hot water.

Would that be a shower fed with hot water from an un-vented storage cylinder SimonG ???? I bet it has a good flowrate as well & how much did you say it cost to supply & install was it £400 or did you go for the more expensive one at £600 !! L very much OL.

 

[DuckyUC]

I used an un-vented storage cylinder before, hot water last 40min and take 1-2 hours to boil once hot water run out.
The point is get unlimited instant access of hot water, how your advise able to do so?

The wiring upgrade only one off cost, and in the future repair/replace the instant water heater + pump only take 30min.
The storage heater you recommend, not even able to drain the water in 30min and start any meaningful repair.

 

[chris watkins]

I used an un-vented storage cylinder before, hot water last 40min and take 1-2 hours to boil once hot water run out.
The point is get unlimited instant access of hot water, how your advise able to do so?

The wiring upgrade only one off cost, and in the future repair/replace the instant water heater + pump only take 30min.
The storage heater you recommend, not even able to drain the water in 30min and start any meaningful repair.

If you say so, end of my communications.

 

[Killy Bing]

Well ducky!!

if you increase the flow through a an instant hot water heater of any sort it means less time for it to heat !!

therefore if you increase the flow rate now you will have........lukewarm water 🙂

sadly you have gone down the wrong route to begin with..........the advice you have recieved and ignored from the first post has been solid !
This is our job so its very naive to assume you know better.

I'm off for a two hour boiler hot shower with an amazing flow rate to drain my unventeds and then get the stop watch out for a further 20 mins to wait for it to recover 😉

 

[DuckyUC]

how big is your water tank?

 

[DuckyUC]

Also how much was the bill?

 

[DuckyUC]

Even my current shower give 4.8L/min, you have 2hours shower so that will be at least 2 X 4.8L/min X 60min = 576L
120min+20min to heat the water, 576L/140min = 4.11L/min

How many Amp does your boiler use?

 

[Killy Bing]

Lets say it cost more money than you would want to part with !!!

the basic jist is that if you want an unlimited/high amount of hot water at a good flow rate in any installation you require quite a good design element and you only get that from someone with the training and experiance.

also there is a cost. the better the system you want the more you have to pay out.

It's impossible for you to get what you desire unless you part with quite a substancial amount of money.

Also the current set up you wish to use will not work 🙂

if you can only use electric then a pulsa coil style combi heater would be your best bet

http://www.gledhill.net/pdf/Spec%20101-02%20PulsaCoil%20BP.pdf

The other options are undersink water heaters and an ellectric shower.......

 

[Dotty]

Even my current shower give 4.8L/min, you have 2hours shower so that will be at least 2 X 4.8L/min X 60min = 576L
120min+20min to heat the water, 576L/140min = 4.11L/min

How many Amp does your boiler use?

You really, really should have paid attention to the advice you were given.

Because you didn't you've now got an expensive white elephant.

Oh, and for the record, my indirect unvented has a recovery time of 20 minutes too. The boiler's on a 5a spur.

But then I know what I'm doing and, when I don't, I pay attention to any and all advice given.

Especially when I'm told I need to get someone in.

You live and you learn eh?

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

me not understand why me head hurt:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: you must be class a plonker

 

[lame plumber]

in future when a poster like you appears, I'm going to take up my kids old mantra that they used when they got fed up with being told what to do. " LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA" 🙂

 

[Howsie]

I'm out out out. I'm disappointed with myself for even posting again on this thread because in know it will pop up on my learned friends new posts search.


Sorry chaps.

 

[DuckyUC]

I already get the system installed, and it work. It gives enough hot water. I only want to install a hot water pump to improve it, that simple. Why you guys seem anyone not using an unvent system are wrong? Instant hot water are so common in other country, whats the point of get an massive water tank that require more maintenance and more risk of leaking?

At the end of the post the ppl seem even made up an unvent system that only exist in imagination.
Hot water last for 2 hours and take 20min to recharge with amazing flow? If you can give me such a amazing model to me I will unstall my current system and install that unvent model.

Let say you have a 200L tank with all hot water heated up in E7 period, shower take 5L/min
200/5=40min shower

If each shower take 20min, that will be enough hot water for 2 shower.
For the 3rd person need a shower, he will need to wait the whole water tank boil to decent temp.

How long do he need to wait?
A immersion normally have 3kW output, 3000W/230V=13A (normally have 16A breaker in the fuse box)
My 12KW system can heat up 5L per min instantly
3/12=1/4, 5/4=1.25L per min
So 3kw should able to heat up 1.25L per min
200/1.25=160min=2hours40min.
With an immersion for the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] person shower need to wait 20min (1[SUP]st[/SUP] and 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] shower run at same time)+2hour40min =3hours


With an instant heater the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] person shower need to wait 20min(1[SUP]st[/SUP] shower) +20min (2[SUP]nd[/SUP] shower)=40mins


How come the unvert immersion becomes better?
Even with a 9kW output will still take 53min to heat the full tank of water
=53+20=1hour 13min waiting time

I would bet the fact is you take a 20min shower which use up half of the hot water, and the 20min recharge just heat up a bit the remain hot+ cold water mixture.
The point is if you do believe unvent system is the ultimate solution then give a physically exist model with spec rather keep saying how crap other system is.

 

[DuckyUC]

And my boiler room not even have space to put a 200L tank, I guess even I get an unvent only can have 150L max. Do you guys understand why I rather prefer get instant system at the cost of only 1 shower can run each time now?

 

[lame plumber]

la la la la la la lal la

 

[happyflyer]

Have you thought about this guys, this could be an old plumber playing mind games with use, dats what I fink, it's a wind up and you have all fallin into the trap, BTW did I reply to this post, my memory is going now, this chap needs a left handed fluffle valve, that will fixed or someone needs to block the thread with a Yorkshire 61.

 

[Howsie]

A shower does not use only hot water. As soon as the cylinder stat calls for heat the water is being heated. The recovery times mentioned are for a complete reheat not a top up.

Your understanding of the subject is poor that is why you are clinging onto a 5l shower rather than listening to the good advice from people who do this everyday.

Are you an engineer by chance?

 

[PlumbBobBob]

it is all getting very monotonous now imho

 

[lame plumber]

la diddly la la (change of tempo to improve the thread🙂 )

 

[Dotty]

la diddly la la (change of tempo to improve the thread🙂 )

Pom pom!

 

[DuckyUC]

my current system give 5L hot water @ 55C,
if the unvent system can mix cold water to increase the flow, so do I.
If the unvent give event less than 5L per min whats the point of geting an unvent?

 

[DuckyUC]

too many unvent fundamentalist!

 

[Dotty]

Could always fit an inline heater and pump on the shower hose.

Clever things.

Look for all the world like fan heaters.

Try taking a fan heater into the shower with you.

 

[DuckyUC]

No, Kettle is better.

 

[DuckyUC]

Low cost(£30), cheap to install (£0), high out put (3kW)(same power as an immersion)

Anything better than the kettle?

 

[DuckyUC]

croppie:

If your water heater only draw 5A that mean it is using gas to boil the water,
the 5A pretty sure is not for the heating element
the 5A only for the control board+pump etc

and I dont even have gas in my flat so it is not a option

 

[Howsie]

You can keep your dribbly 5l per minute and I'll stick with my 20l.

I'm out. For good this time.

 

[DuckyUC]

how long your 20L per min last?
200L/20L=10min

That is a quick shower.

 

[DuckyUC]

So professional advise is get a system that last 10min and take 3hours to recharge.

Well...

 

[DuckyUC]

I bet those unvent fundamentalist have converted half of their house into boiler room if they have a big family.

Have a series of water tanks sit in the living room(converted into boiler room) in order to store their hot water.

Otherwise they all live in 1bed property with them self so never need to worry about running out of hot water.

 

[Killy Bing]

The plusa coil link i have you acts as a combi, heats up the store of water and then runs mains through the coil to bring it up to temp.
it doesnt deplete the store with each use but gradually depletes the temp.

bigger the store the more instant hot water the coil can provide.

 

[DuckyUC]

1king55:

Yes the boiler I have before is plusa coil do work like you said. It heat up the still water in tank(unchange) and the fresh water run through the hot still water.

That design provide higher pressure but what pull me off is the low output of the heating element (3kW)

 

[Killy Bing]

Its more than sufficiant, youre not replaceing that water with mains so the lowest it would ever drop to would be room temp.

you only need the immersion to keep the temp up.
initually you need to leave it for a few hours to get up to temp but then it tops itself up.
that usually happens once.
unless you want to be special and turn it off after every use.

 

[Gray0689]

So professional advise is get a system that last 10min and take 3hours to recharge.

Well...

Professional opinion you are a real muppet
Croppie do us a favour and ban this tool

 

[DuckyUC]

The reason storage heater so popular is because it use the power during the off-peak electricity in the night time,
It is good for government and power station but not good for user.

Cause the power station need to make sure able to provide the electricity at the peak demand
And most power station cant vary their output in short time ,like nuclear power station,
which is cheaper to run than those can vary output in short time, like gas power station
This mean government can end up building less power station.

Otherwise if the government set the domestic electric supply standard to 3phase 100A per phase
everyone will go to get a 3phase instant water heater which give enough hot water any time
no one will even bother to install a massive water tank which need to maintain,
cost more to transport,install and waste power to keep the temp

Does it explain it better now?

 

[DuckyUC]

Gray0689:

If you like storage, your choice.
I dont like it. Used storage heater for 9 years and never happy about it.

But you dont ban people who not agree your opinion, I dont force anyone to install a instant system,
if you love waiting the water to boil, I dont stop you to do it.
Please respect other opinion!
How can keep saying unvert awsome, unvert great help? It is more like an unvert religion rather than the actual reason to support it.
It seem Only with detail/spec of the model are meaningful advise.

most ppl advise unvert just because they install more unvert than other system, a system easy to install doesnt mean good to use.
As I said above I explained why unvert storage set up is popular, but the advantage are only for the power company and the plumber install it, not the user.

If anyone can give a exact model/detail of set up for an electric powered unvert system that dont run out hot water in 2hours shower and take less than 20min to reheat,
I will apologies to each indivial member who recommended an unvert system.

 

[Killy Bing]

Ahhh ducky.

go spend 2000 on an industrial water heater and stop trying to preach instant hot water.

we know the limits of it.

 

[Gray0689]

You are talking utter nonsense
The power you will need to have the water heated at the flow you want is only attainable by a boiler or a stored water heater ie direct unvented cylinder you have been told this on lots of occasions but choose to ignore the advice
You have been told not to do what you did as wont work
You did it anyway
Then come back asking advice on how to fix it
Case closed and I hope the thread lmao

 

[DuckyUC]

I already get the flow I need, what you mean by "only attainable by a boiler or a stored water heater"?

 

[Gray0689]

I already get the flow I need, what you mean by "only attainable by a boiler or a stored water heater"?

Then why you want a pump
And I meant what I said read it

 

[DuckyUC]

I am not try to get an advise about "how to fix it", I am try to improve it.

 

[Gray0689]

I am not try to get an advise about "how to fix it", I am try to improve it.

Same thing lmao
It didnt work you was told it won't work
Lol

 

[DuckyUC]

The instant heater normally place within 2M from the shower head, as I place it in boiler room the hot water pump can restore the pressure lost when the water pass through the pipe.

 

[Koogatubac]

This topic is awsum, i want in!

 

[Gray0689]

The instant heater normally place within 2M from the shower head, as I place it in boiler room the hot water pump can restore the pressure lost when the water pass through the pipe.

No problem
Ill see you when your back asking how do I get the water hotter after I have added a pump to system
Look forward to reading it
Now I'm out lol

 

[Dotty]

I might start taking an entrance fee!

 

[AWheating]

using your maths you are going to shower with 60degree hot water if you have an unvented cylinder? if so then your maths is correct but the third person wont be able to have a shower, they will be too busy taking the first two people to the burns ward of the local hospital.

chrispy duck LOL

or should i say chrispy duckyUC

 

[Dotty]

And as for differences of opinion......

Only really works when both parties know what they're talking about.

 

[DuckyUC]

The pulsa coil boiler do have an internal hot water pump to increase the pressure too, I cant see the why install a hot water pump will cause problem for the instant heater.
Since the pump can tune the output, I can get the increase pressure at the level I need without temp drop too much.

If you say no to the set up, please give a physical reason to it. Otherwise that will become the fight of religion again.

 

[Gray0689]

The pulsa coil boiler do have an internal hot water pump to increase the pressure too, I cant see the why install a hot water pump will cause problem for the instant heater.
Since the pump can tune the output, I can get the increase pressure at the level I need without temp drop too much.

If you say no to the set up, please give a physical reason to it. Otherwise that will become the fight of religion again.

What are you on

 

[AWheating]

phone the manufacturer of the heater up and ask them.

 

[DuckyUC]

Gray0689:

For your problem , that is why I need a pump can tune the output to stop excess cold water flow.
Even In the worst case the pump wont make difference, but if the plan work then the whole system are way better than the storage idea.

 

[DuckyUC]

AWheating:

even you get 60C in the unvent that will only store 10-15% more heat then a tank @ 55C
It may change from 40min shower to 50min shower, but then it will take even longer time to heat up the whole tank.

And for instant system you mix the hot water with cold water, at least the chance of the unvert blow up are more likely then I go to hospital.

 

[DuckyUC]

Unvent the best!

 

[DuckyUC]

Why not give a suggestion of the best unvent system physically exist? much more easy to discuss the performance etc.

 

[DuckyUC]

Having difference opinion is the point of the forum and discussion, if everyone have the same opinion all post will finish in 1 reply.

Unvent the best!

 

[AWheating]

going to your level reasoning for a min, does the third person stand outside the bathroom for 40mins, seems like a waste of time to me.

maybe some diversity to your military routine is needed.

 

[Killy Bing]

Unvented isnt always the best....but for your limitations its your only real option 🙂

anything you attempt from this point on will be unsafe as you don't understand the limitaions of what our trying to use.

as such im having no part of it.

install an electric shower thats the safest option......for everyone.

 

[DuckyUC]

AWheating:

With an unvent system the 3rd person need to wait 3hours.

 

[DuckyUC]

1king55:

The instant water heater is a electric shower really.

 

[Killy Bing]

Have you not realised that water heater you got reduces the flow to get its temp rise..... Boosting it before will either have no effect or bust it.
boost it after and the pump and water heater will run dry.

electric shower is at the point of use and designed for use for a shower.

you've probably got a sink heater...

 

[johnnyplumb]

Our Father, Who art in heaven
Hallowed be Thy Name; thy kingdom come ...... lol

 

[DuckyUC]

I know the heater restricted the flow to heat the water to designated temp
Place the pump in cold inlet will have no effect

So I try to get the pump install in the hot outlet
get a tune-able pump, Set the pump at lower power to avoid the heating element run dry

It wasnt those high power main boost pump, it is similar to those pump build in storage cylinder which boost the pressure.

 

[DuckyUC]

it is 12kw and are design for shower, def not sink heater,which normally is 3kw.

 

[AWheating]

albion ultersteel direct unvented cylinders, page 6

http://www.albionwaterheaters.com/pdfs/sales/ultrasteel.pdf

120 L cylinder has a recover time of 45 mins with 2x3kw heater
150 L cylinder has a recovery time of 61 mins with 2x3kw heaters

these will be simular figures of other cylinders

also remember the cylinder will start to recover during the first shower not after the second.

so admit your wrong and stop talking rubbish.

 

[stoker122]

38 degrees generally for a shower (can't believe I got sucked in!)

 

[DuckyUC]

2 shower running at the same time, heating recover from 1st shower already involved in the calculation.

120L/5 will last 24min recharge 45min
210L/5 will last 42min recharge 96min

Thanks for giving the information to support what I said before.

 

[DuckyUC]

normal shower about 38c-42c

 

[DuckyUC]

2 standard bath need 210L for direct unit according to the product info you provide.
Which take 96min to reheat, with 5L/min last about 42min.

So far it seem the instant set up still better, wait for 2*20min shower only take 40min.

 

[AWheating]

2 shower running at the same time, heating recover from 1st shower already involved in the calculation.

120L/5 will last 24min recharge 45min
210L/5 will last 42min recharge 96min

Thanks for giving the information to support what I said before.

2 showers at the same time with 5lpm from a electric heater?

so why did you say 3 hours in another post, your an idiot.

please dont kill anybody but yourself, terra a bit. :banghead:

 

[DuckyUC]

3hours for the 3rd person to wait, can you read before comment?

 

[stoker122]

No normal shower 38 as that is the safety point, if you want it hotter you would need to press a safety switch to unlock to stop people getting burned.
What are you showering, lobsters?

 

[DuckyUC]

It seem the indirect one are awesome! But 16.52kw rate need 71.8A @230V, really wonder will I able to fit it.

 

[AWheating]

3hours for the 3rd person to wait, can you read before comment?

1st person shower 20mins cylinder starts to recover, 2nd person shower cylinder still recovering, 3rd person has to wait 3 hours ???

you need this book.

 

[clarky101]

Do people really have 20 minute showers....that seems an age in which to just stand still....

 

[happyflyer]

(can't believe I got sucked in!)

I double love this one, you just could not resist, there's no fool like an old fool 94 post and this guys still at day one, its a scam, perhaps he's going to try and sell us something :42: I love spam on bread

 

[Dotty]

Oops! I must've hit the ban button......

Oh well.....

 

[happyflyer]

Do people really have 20 minute showers....that seems an age in which to just stand still....

If you are a dirty old git....:37:

 

[AWheating]

i am, but not that kind of dirty :53:

 

[happyflyer]

AW,


This is in the death throes now, let it go peacefully, have a modicum of decorum, it never did get finalized and we lost this one, there will be more no doubt

 

[nicro3]

That Ducky has to be Flexible Frank reborn.

 

[Koogatubac]

God it was getting boring... And i only commented once