WRAS question

[Riley]

Hi

I'm having a bit of a nightmare with quoting for a job.

Customer keeps arguing the toss over a product that they want installing.

They would like a douche installed in close proximity to the toilet ie there is a chance that the hose could end up in the pan. The product that they have purchased recommends an anti syphon valve to prevent backflow contamination. I was not sure about this and asked the question on here the other day and was kindly recommended to contact WRAS accordingly.

I did this and received a very concise response re installing a separate water cistern with the necessary air gaps to ensure that contamination could not occur.

I totally understand what I was sent and I have done my best to explain this to the customer however they cannot understand why it cannot be just installed as per the MIs. I can see both sides of the problem here but I am not keen to install in line with the MIs as this is a landlord property and don't want the Landlord to have any comeback or any subsequent WRAS follow up.

Would i I be better off just binning this job?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

cant you use a double check valve ?????

 

[plumben]

If its a rented property why not just surgest to the landlord to just not install the douche

 

[Geyser]

cant you use a double check valve ?????

No you can't. I had same problem after getting well into the job wben customer turned up with one.

 

[Rckape]

A double check valve is only suitable for category 3 fluids. This install required protection from category 5 fluids, realistically a break tank is the only option.

I'm sure if you look in the MI's it will have a clause requiring compliance with local regulations. As far as I know water MI's do not super cede water regs unlike gas.

For me it's a case of doing it to regs or not at all.

Of course it's much easier not to install in the first place.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

No you can't. I had same problem after getting well into the job wben customer turned up with one.

just had a quick look on the internet and most say fit like this 😀

http://www.wet-water.co.uk/images/stories/Guides/basic-cold-water-connection.pdf

and from wras them selves

9. Bidets

Generic specification is limited to over rim supply (not ascending spray) bidets only:

BS EN 35 and BS 5505-3 – Pedestal bidets.
BS EN 36 and BS 5505-3 – Wall hung bidets.
See also BS EN 14528 Bidets. Functional requirements and test methods.

Water supply to bidets is by separate taps or mixer tap (preferably thermostatic), with or without adjustable spray nozzles (described as ‘over rim’ supply). There may also be a diverter to supply a douche spray rising from the bottom of the bowl.

Water Regulations or Byelaws usually have onerous requirements for the connection of bidets with rising douche or flexible handspray, e.g. a separate break tank. These measures will reduce water pressure, which may be inadequate for the bidet douche spray. Check the details with the manufacturer and/ or the water company.

 

[Riley]

cant you use a double check valve ?????

I did suggest that to lady at WRAS but she said it was insufficient for Cat 5 water

 

[Riley]

A double check valve is only suitable for category 3 fluids. This install required protection from category 5 fluids, realistically a break tank is the only option.

I'm sure if you look in the MI's it will have a clause requiring compliance with local regulations. As far as I know water MI's do not super cede water regs unlike gas.

For me it's a case of doing it to regs or not at all.

Of course it's much easier not to install in the first place.

My thoughts exactly

 

[Riley]

If its a rented property why not just surgest to the landlord to just not install the douche

Tenants want it for "religious" purposes

 

[snowhead]

Problem solved, No risk here then;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU4TxkougK8

 

[plumben]

Tenants want it for "religious" purposes

That doesn't justify installing one, and the extra expenses for the landlord, the next tenant will want it removing, they can stand in the bath/shower tray and use the shower if they need one that bad

 

[Riley]

That doesn't justify installing one, and the extra expenses for the landlord, the next tenant will want it removing, they can stand in the bath/shower tray and use the shower if they need one that bad

Oh I know and don't get me wrong I totally agree. The landlord is happy as they're good tenants and are willing to contribute to the cost

 

[plumben]

Oh I know and don't get me wrong I totally agree. The landlord is happy as they're good tenants and are willing to contribute to the cost

They wont be that happy when you add on x hundreds of pounds to install a break tank

 

[chris watkins]

This is a common one that comes up all the time in London, you simple can't install them unless the water supply to them is protected by a class AA or AB air gap, either using a cistern or a pipe interrupter (& try doing that with a blended water supply).

This is Category 5 water we are talking about here, if our water supplies are contaminated by this (e coli) you can kill not only the tenants but the whole street or more.
I would remind installers on here that you would be liable along with the landlord should this happen (they would argue they were employing a competent person in the form of a plumber).

If you do not possess your Water Regs Ticket I strongly urge you to get it !!

With regards to the Manufactures Instruction I use to explain it like this - In this country we do not, as a rule, have Laws aimed at stopping the sale of products, it would just not be possible instead we legislate to prevent there use.

Remember those mini motor bikes that were all the rage a few years back, not illegal to sell them just ride them down the street.

 

[plumben]

This is a common one that comes up all the time in London, you simple can't install them unless the water supply to them is protected by a class AA or AB air gap, either using a cistern or a pipe interrupter (& try doing that with a blended water supply).

This is Category 5 water we are talking about here, if our water supplies are contaminated by this (e coli) you can kill not only the tenants but the whole street or more.
I would remind installers on here that you would be liable along with the landlord should this happen (they would argue they were employing a competent person in the form of a plumber).

If you do not possess your Water Regs Ticket I strongly urge you to get it !!

With regards to the Manufactures Instruction I use to explain it like this - In this country we do not, as a rule, have Laws aimed at stopping the sale of products, it would just not be possible instead we legislate to prevent there use.

Remember those mini motor bikes that were all the rage a few years back, not illegal to sell them just ride them down the street.

Top points raised her, the only problem is you get DIY wannabes who can install plumbing but have never heard of water regs or think they apply to them, and this could be the house next door too you,

 

[chris watkins]

Top points raised her, the only problem is you get DIY wannabes who can install plumbing but have never heard of water regs or think they apply to them, and this could be the house next door too you,

Too true but the old adage of "ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the Law" would apply & they would/should be prosecuted.

The difference in an unregistered industry where anyone can do Plumbing, is that you might expect someone selling their services, to know what is required by the Law & carry this out.

 

[Riley]

Thanks all for your comments. I certainly will not be fitting this appliance not to regs so they can forget that one from the start

 

[joni os]

Skid marks and Klingons might be seen by some to represent British values but for those who aspire to a greater standard of personal hygiene the industry continues to evolve. The WC basin will be category 5 but provided an air gap is above spill level the hose is considered category 3.

 

[chris watkins]

The WC basin will be category 5 but provided an air gap is above spill level the hose is considered category 3.

Sorry I don't understand, could you explain?

 

[joni os]

Same situation as if you have shower over bath with adjacent WC.
In my experience this is often non compliant, especially with combined bath tap shower arrangement, but I refrain from racial abuse even if house owner is English.
Unlike an open ended shower head the apparatus in question is trigger sealed at nozzle, giving an additional safeguard to back syphon.