Hot water from Valliant Boiler

[Margaret T]

Not the best install but nothing obvious from your pictures apart from no auto bypass ? You need a route for the pump overun to circulate and displace the heat in the boiler when the 2 port valves close , you definitely should not need to have the immersion heater on 24 - 7 they are more for a back up should something fail , if I had to diagnose the fault I would start with checking the 2 port valve on the hot water system , check it is motoring open when the cylinder stat temperature is turned up and then down when the hive is in a hotwater call mode ? , next I see on the cylinder primary return has a balancing type valve this may need adjusting or even removing as it maybe the problem better to fit a lockshield type gate valve for balancing ? Few thing there for you to consider Margret . Please post your findings regards. kop

Hello King of Pipes, On Friday 26th May 2019, we switched off the immersion and tested with hot water (via the hive using status of 'always on') but to no avail, no hot water. The installer came yesterday (Tuesday 30/04/2019) and looked at the drayton cube and boiler, says can't seem to understand what is the underlying issue. The drayton connected to the hot water pipe next to the hot water cylinder was on 'B' with the black clip at the top lifted upwards.

The two pipes in the kitchen, original newly installed connected the boiler (2 straight - straws) was readjusted to now criss-cross? (see attached photos). Currently, the thermostat attached to the cylinder is set at 70 degrees. Hallway flooring was lifted to find pipe work.

At present, the Central Heating (CH) and Hot Water (HW) are both running, immersion switched off, the drayton valves not attached, all heaters turned down. The hot water pipe in air-cupboard is very hot, and the water is hot.

It seems that when the CH is on together with HW, there is HW and the water flows; but then when the CH is off and HW on only; the hot water reverses flow? Has anyone had this issue before?

Greatly appreciate anyone help?

Thanks a lot.

 

[Riley]

Wow that’s rough

 

[Brambles]

Margaret,

You should get whoever installed this back on site. It looks a poor installation from both a design and workmanship perspective.

 

[Margaret T]

Margaret,

You should get whoever installed this back on site. It looks a poor installation from both a design and workmanship perspective.

Is this fixable? All I want is a working functioning HW and CH. Thanks a lot

 

[Riley]

Of course it’s fixable and if it worked before then it should again. But concerned with the installer swapping pipes over

 

[Margaret T]

Of course it’s fixable and if it worked before then it should again. But concerned with the installer swapping pipes over

The house was formerly a gravity system (the installer says) and now this has been changed. Previously Omyson (Olympic 20/35B or 38/50B wall mounted gas boiler was attached when the house was built. The whole CH and HW was working perfectly fine for the past 20 years with no issue. We changed for more energy efficient to Valiant ecotec and installer recommended ecotec plus18. Since installation, September 2018, all was working fine (CH+HW) on the schedule set - the installer set everything up and we never changed any settings.
January 2019 there was no hot water and the installer said airlock, back up and running
February 2019 - no hot water and the installer replaced the syncron motor
March 2019 - then advised to leave the immersion on constant
April 2019 - we are the current situation
and readjustment made from 2 straight pipes to now criss-cross

not sure what else do to?

 

[Brambles]

Margaret,

Apologies, upon rereading, my reply was too blunt.

However, from my understanding, you have a system installed that is less than 6 months old. At the time of handover to you, you believed it worked properly. Oddly, the installation engineer ( or someone after installation) told you to leave the immersion on all the time. That on reflection is the alarm bell that they could not get the hot water to function on a stand alone basis. My interpretation of that was that they had got confused with the wiring when installing Nest. That is probably the case, but I may be wrong.

The pictures of your installation show both poor workmanship and planning of pipework routes. whilst the latter is not a cardinal sin - it shows that the installer at the very minimum did not think through and plan how he /she was going to deliver a quality and visually attractive installation. There does not appear to be a return filter fitted ( which may be a requirement for the Valiant boiler warranty).

The crossed pipes are either a sign of poor installation planning or reversing flow / return post installation.

Whatever the issue, it should be corrected by the installer. I woukd strongly advise you to write to the installer, setting out all the issues and give them 30 days to correct the installation. Thereafter ( assuming you are in England /Wales consider taking the case to the small claims court - it will cost you £55, which is refundable when you get an award. If the installer does not respond to the case, judgement will (in 90% of cases) be in your favour. Enforcing a judgement is quite straightforward

Is it fixable, of course it is, the question is always how much will it cost, to identify the issues and then correct them.

Was the engineer who came this week the original installer or a “new” set of eyes?

 

[Burger]

Margaret,

Apologies, upon rereading, my reply was too blunt.

However, from my understanding, you have a system installed that is less than 6 months old. At the time of handover to you, you believed it worked properly. Oddly, the installation engineer ( or someone after installation) told you to leave the immersion on all the time. That on reflection is the alarm bell that they could not get the hot water to function on a stand alone basis. My interpretation of that was that they had got confused with the wiring when installing Nest. That is probably the case, but I may be wrong.

The pictures of your installation show both poor workmanship and planning of pipework routes. whilst the latter is not a cardinal sin - it shows that the installer at the very minimum did not think through and plan how he /she was going to deliver a quality and visually attractive installation. There does not appear to be a return filter fitted ( which may be a requirement for the Valiant boiler warranty

I know it could still be wrong but I think the Nest was installed by British Gas. She quotes them on page 3 I think

 

[Margaret T]

Margaret,

Apologies, upon rereading, my reply was too blunt.

However, from my understanding, you have a system installed that is less than 6 months old. At the time of handover to you, you believed it worked properly. Oddly, the installation engineer ( or someone after installation) told you to leave the immersion on all the time. That on reflection is the alarm bell that they could not get the hot water to function on a stand alone basis. My interpretation of that was that they had got confused with the wiring when installing Nest. That is probably the case, but I may be wrong.

The pictures of your installation show both poor workmanship and planning of pipework routes. whilst the latter is not a cardinal sin - it shows that the installer at the very minimum did not think through and plan how he /she was going to deliver a quality and visually attractive installation. There does not appear to be a return filter fitted ( which may be a requirement for the Valiant boiler warranty).

The crossed pipes are either a sign of poor installation planning or reversing flow / return post installation.

Whatever the issue, it should be corrected by the installer. I woukd strongly advise you to write to the installer, setting out all the issues and give them 30 days to correct the installation. Thereafter ( assuming you are in England /Wales consider taking the case to the small claims court - it will cost you £55, which is refundable when you get an award. If the installer does not respond to the case, judgement will (in 90% of cases) be in your favour. Enforcing a judgement is quite straightforward

Is it fixable, of course it is, the question is always how much will it cost, to identify the issues and then correct them.

Was the engineer who came this week the original installer or a “new” set of eyes?

Hello Brambles, thanks for your response. Not at all rude, in terms of the sequence of:

January 2019 - no central heating - Air lock identified and said to turn the black switch at times (visit by the original installer)

February 2019 - no central heating + hot water (visit by the original installer and says to keep on constant)

March 2019 -
- beginning of the month - the original installer installed a shower pump
- mid month - no hot water (visit by original installer said small leak changed red valve)

April 2019
no hot water - visit by a valiant engineer (says nothing wrong with boiler and to contact original installer)
reoccurence no HW - visit by British gas (says replaced PCB and not registering demand)
reoccurence no HW - visit by British gas (says checked valves and cyclinder all clear)
30/04/2019 - visit by the original installer and can't seem to get the hot water to work on its own. Works fine when both CH + HW on together. Pipework in the kitchen changed from two straight pipes to now criss-cross. Says the water was reverse flowing before starting and still remains so even after the criss-cross change? No pipework touched in the hallway where the laminate flooring was laid. This was never touched prior to the installation.

The installer tried testing the CH + HW in 'purge' mode? Not sure what that it is and the issue remains present.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Margaret T]

I know it could still be wrong but I think the Nest was installed by British Gas. She quotes them on page 3 I think

The hive was installed by the original installer because it was all part of the package - valiant boiler + Hive. The boiler was first installed - then the hive was set up after by applying the timing Monday - Sunday schedule run. We work 9-5 so the installer set up the settings on hive. Hope this clarifies.

 

[chris watkins]

Of course it’s fixable and if it worked before then it should again. But concerned with the installer swapping pipes over

& B.Gas who can't sort out simple problems.

 

[Margaret T]

& B.Gas who can't sort out simple problems.

British gas couldnt find the issue?

 

[Brambles]

Margaret

Was the contract to instal the boiler and hive with British Gas?

 

[Margaret T]

Margaret

Was the contract to instal the boiler and hive with British Gas?

No. The installer was obtained from Valiant website [Turn your guarantee up to 10].

I opted for the 10 years guarantee.

 

[Brambles]

where are you based Margaret?

 

[Margaret T]

where are you based Margaret?

London

 

[Brambles]

Margaret,

On the positive front, it is good that the original installer is actively engaged in the resolution. Irrespective of achieving success, at least he/ she has the commitment and is trying to resolve the issue.

Switching flow / return without sound logic (when the heating side is functioning ) is puzzling. I am assuming that he/she ( at the time of switching) has not relocated the magnetic filter ( which I recall is adjacent to the hot water cylinder) onto the “new” return, leaving the new boiler unprotected from debris flowing from the system back to the boiler? That is not the end of the world, but demonstrates poor thinking in the act of desperation

If you wish feel free to message me at [email protected]

If you are relatively close, I am happy to look at it for you - to give you a few pointers fir your installer to rectify the problem

 

[Margaret T]

Margaret,

On the positive front, it is good that the original installer is actively engaged in the resolution. Irrespective of achieving success, at least he/ she has the commitment and is trying to resolve the issue.

Switching flow / return without sound logic (when the heating side is functioning ) is puzzling. I am assuming that he/she ( at the time of switching) has not relocated the magnetic filter ( which I recall is adjacent to the hot water cylinder) onto the “new” return, leaving the new boiler unprotected from debris flowing from the system back to the boiler? That is not the end of the world, but demonstrates poor thinking in the act of desperation

If you wish feel free to message me at [email protected]

If you are relatively close, I am happy to look at it for you - to give you a few pointers fir your installer to rectify the problem

Hello Brambles, the installer was also puzzled when he returned to look at the boiler and the Drayton valves. Also tested and looked at the air vent. Has this happened to anyone before about the HW reverse flowing? Never did we have this with the HW before, it was only after the boiler was changed that we did not have hot water. From above, the criss-cross would this be an issue? I haven't seen such a thing before.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Brambles]

Margaret,

I cannot see why the installer has reversed the flow on on your system. The issue you have described is that the only problem you have is that you cannot run Hot water without have the Central Heating on.

My view is that either :

The control wiring between the two two port valves and the Hive interface is incorrect.
Or, the micro switch in the two port valve controlling hot water is not functioning ( I think you said that the synchronous motor was changed. The installer may have damaged the micro switch or dislodged the connection in the process.

The only reason to change the pipework configuration that I can think of, is if the installer has fitted the Hot Water two port valve downstream of the Central Heating two port valve. I have seen this before on new installations.

To conclude, to operate a condensing boiler for Hot water only is as simple as it gets, a boiler, two pipes, a valve and an indirect cylinder. Better still you know that the hydraulic circuit works, because it functions when the central heating is on. I would have expected the installer to operate the boiler in this mode upon first use before testing the central heating circuit.

Presumably the installer cleaned the existing central heating system before installing the new boiler? So should have a good understanding of the system pipework layout.

With respect to the crossovers, they should be removed or if deemed to be correct the magnetic filter should be reinstalled on the return immediately before the boiler.

In my view, the actions taken by your installer earlier this week are putting your boiler warranty at risk.

My view has not changed since your problem was first posted. It is not a difficult fix for a competent heating engineer or a plumber with a good knowledge of heating systems - and this is most properly trained experienced plumbers.

On a final point, don’t let him/her take up any more flooring / floor boards - that is just not needed to fix this.

Feel free to share this note with your installer - it may help to focus their mind in the fault finding process.

 

[Margaret T]

Margaret,

I cannot see why the installer has reversed the flow on on your system. The issue you have described is that the only problem you have is that you cannot run Hot water without have the Central Heating on.

My view is that either :

The control wiring between the two two port valves and the Hive interface is incorrect.
Or, the micro switch in the two port valve controlling hot water is not functioning ( I think you said that the synchronous motor was changed. The installer may have damaged the micro switch or dislodged the connection in the process.

The only reason to change the pipework configuration that I can think of, is if the installer has fitted the Hot Water two port valve downstream of the Central Heating two port valve. I have seen this before on new installations.

To conclude, to operate a condensing boiler for Hot water only is as simple as it gets, a boiler, two pipes, a valve and an indirect cylinder. Better still you know that the hydraulic circuit works, because it functions when the central heating is on. I would have expected the installer to operate the boiler in this mode upon first use before testing the central heating circuit.

Presumably the installer cleaned the existing central heating system before installing the new boiler? So should have a good understanding of the system pipework layout.

With respect to the crossovers, they should be removed or if deemed to be correct the magnetic filter should be reinstalled on the return immediately before the boiler.

In my view, the actions taken by your installer earlier this week are putting your boiler warranty at risk.

My view has not changed since your problem was first posted. It is not a difficult fix for a competent heating engineer or a plumber with a good knowledge of heating systems - and this is most properly trained experienced plumbers.

On a final point, don’t let him/her take up any more flooring / floor boards - that is just not needed to fix this.

Feel free to share this note with your installer - it may help to focus their mind in the fault finding process.

Thanks Brambles for your responses. Much appreciated and all others on here for your reply. Just wanted to rectify whatever the underlying issue.

Yes, he said he replaced a syncron motor on the heating valve. This was done in February 2019. The house had old radiators and boiler. I had changed the whole house radiators (x7) all new, new Valliant boiler + hive controller. In regards to the syncron motor, found it rather odd for them to change in consideration these were newly installed. We didn't have these Drayton valves at all before and not sure why it would need replacing on the 5th month if these were new?

On another note, you mentioned there is no need to lift floorboards, he mentioned that he might have to disconnect the blue HW cylinder and lift the flooring in the air cupboard and see the pipework there? Is this needed? British gas also said the same thing?

At present, I am waiting for his return ...

Thanks.